Spanking as a form of Retribution ?

Fallible · **#21** by **Fallible** » Feb 22, 2014 12:07 am

Mick wrote:
Fallible wrote:Nothing a child could do ''deserves'' physical pain.

Define what you mean here by "child"

You define what you mean by ''child''.

And why not? I'm curious.

Because to ''deserve'' pain is an idiotic concept.

surreptitious57 · **#22** by **surreptitious57** » Feb 22, 2014 12:37 am

There are children that rape and murder. There are adults with the mental age of a child that rape and murder. And so just defining a child in numerical terms and then saying that anyone who falls within that parameter cannot be punished is wrong Anyone here in England who commits a crime and is under eighteen is classed as a child. And so if they were convicted of an offence no matter how serious they would not be sent to an adult prison. But they would be incarcerated. It should be so for adults with the mental age of a child though here the lines are obviously less well defined although the principle is the same

Mick · **#23** by **Mick** » Feb 22, 2014 1:22 am

Mazille wrote:It's such an un-Christian notion, mick. Or was Jesus only addressing kids when he said to turn the other cheek? Was he specifically talking about kids' butt cheeks?

There are a few interpretations for that, and some are not pacifist in character.

I am not saying it is or is not Christian. I'm merely exploring things here.

Mick · **#24** by **Mick** » Feb 22, 2014 1:24 am

Fallible wrote:
Mick wrote:
Fallible wrote:Nothing a child could do ''deserves'' physical pain.

Define what you mean here by "child"

You define what you mean by ''child''.

And why not? I'm curious.

Because to ''deserve'' pain is an idiotic concept.

Why is it idiotic? A sort of pain is deserved for our offenders, is it not? We want them to suffer in a way, don't we? Prisons are not amusement parks. They freakin suck.

Mick · **#25** by **Mick** » Feb 22, 2014 1:40 am

Mazille wrote:Which deliberately hitting to inflict pain as a form of retribution isn't?

You're not even trying, man.

I don't see it as clearly abusive. Take the bullying of someone by your 16 or 17 year old.

In these cases, I understand the sense of justice when the bullied kid's brother hunts the bully down and gives him a similar treatment. For that, though I might object from my arm chair, I feel a sense of satisfaction. A greater comfort comes when I substitute the brother with the bully's dad, for here a righteous authority over the bully administers the retribution.

Is this abuse for the dad to smack his son for disgracing the family name, bullying a boy, causing a boy pain, and distrupting society? It is not so clear to me. I'm not saying it is not abuse, but only that it is unclear.

Mick · **#26** by **Mick** » Feb 22, 2014 2:15 am

monkeyboy wrote:
Mick wrote:
monkeyboy wrote:
Mick wrote:The goal of spanking here is not to help your children do "just fine". The intention is to give them exactly what they "deserve" regardless of whether it helps lead them down a better path. You seem to be assessing retributive spanking from its failures to meet an end that it purports no interest in pursuing.

I'm interested to hear just what a child has to do that would deserve being purposefully assaulted by an adult. I take it by using the term spanking, you are meaning a considered beating rather than some anger fuelled, loss of control type knee jerk assault. I'd be interested to see you explain the difference.

Also, how is a parent or other authorised spanker qualified in any way to determine the appropriate amount of abuse to be administered to the child for each infringement?

Your last question there presumes it is an instance of abuse. You can't presume exactly what is at stake. I wonder just what is involved here in being "qualified" for administration. There are qualifications? I wonder if there are qualifications for any sort of parental discipline. One might ask, 'how is a parent qualified to determine the appropriate amount of time-outs administered to the child for each infringement?' I'm unsure this is about qualifications other than being in a sort of authoritative position over that child. Parents are given liberties and privileges to use at their judgement until their actions are shown to be abusive.

Perhaps it would serve you better to answer the questions in order. And I would seriously appreciate you doing so rather than nitpicking over a minor point in my post as usual to avoid more awkward questions put to you Mick.

And yes, you're damn right my last question presumes it is an abuse to deliberately assault anyone, especially a child which you are responsible for. Replace the child with an adult in a hypothetical situation. Since you fail to provide me with an instance where spanking a child might be appropriate in your eyes (avoidance of this issue duly noted), I perhaps have to draw on my own experience. I was spanked as a child for swearing at my mother. She told my father when he returned from work and I was bent over the arm of the sofa and whacked across the arse with his belt. Now back to the hypothetical situation. My wife tells me that a neighbour swore at her earlier in the day so I go around to the neighbours house and confront him, overpower him and give him a few whacks with my belt. What is the likely outcome of this situation?

The question on qualifications stands. How is the spanker to determine how many blows to deliver, how hard and with what to make the punishment appropriate to the actions of the child?

Try answering some questions Mick. I have answered you, do me the courtesy of responding in kind please.

Replacing a child with an adult is problematic, since the parent-child relationship does not obtain. Thus, we have issues about authority. Who has authority to issue a smack or whatever to another adult? If any, say some, it is the state. Some to governments do this. Other times, it might be the public will. Take the sexual predator and child killer Paul Bernardo (just read about him). He recieved some" prison justice" at the hands of his other inmates. Not only was this the public will (by far and large, I think) but his community members, the inmates, as a collective, deemed it fit for him. Do they have the authority? Does the public will? I don't know, but what I do know is that no one really have a shit. They were content with that desert. They call it justice.

Mr.Samsa · **#27** by **Mr.Samsa** » Feb 22, 2014 3:00 am

Mazille wrote:It's such an un-Christian notion, mick. Or was Jesus only addressing kids when he said to turn the other cheek? Was he specifically talking about kids' butt cheeks?

"Spare the rod and spoil the child".

Nicko · **#28** by **Nicko** » Feb 22, 2014 3:31 am

Mick wrote:Is this abuse for the dad to smack his son for disgracing the family name, bullying a boy, causing a boy pain, and distrupting society? It is not so clear to me. I'm not saying it is not abuse, but only that it is unclear.

What you are failing to engage with is the fact that the relationship is usually the other way around.

Namely, that corporal punishment during childhood is highly correlated with violence as an adult, with good reason to suppose that the relationship is causal.

Onyx8 · **#29** by **Onyx8** » Feb 22, 2014 3:42 am

Mick wrote:

Replacing a child with an adult is problematic, since the parent-child relationship does not obtain. Thus, we have issues about authority. Who has authority to issue a smack or whatever to another adult? If any, say some, it is the state. Some to governments do this. Other times, it might be the public will. Take the sexual predator and child killer Paul Bernardo (just read about him). He recieved some" prison justice" at the hands of his other inmates. Not only was this the public will (by far and large, I think) but his community members, the inmates, as a collective, deemed it fit for him. Do they have the authority? Does the public will? I don't know, but what I do know is that no one really have a shit. They were content with that desert. They call it justice.

As you just read about it (can't imagine how you missed it when it was happening, but whatever) you must have a citation for it? I'm not doubting, just interested in where you read it. (That is the bit I bolded.) My understanding is that he would have been in protective custody, is all.

And where did you get the idea from that:

Not only was this the public will (by far and large, I think) but his community members, the inmates, as a collective, deemed it fit for him.

Mick · **#30** by **Mick** » Feb 22, 2014 6:26 am

Mr.Samsa wrote:
Mazille wrote:It's such an un-Christian notion, mick. Or was Jesus only addressing kids when he said to turn the other cheek? Was he specifically talking about kids' butt cheeks?

"Spare the rod and spoil the child".

There's also an interesting reading of John 2:15. Jesus basically kicked ass with a whip.

Agrippina · **#31** by **Agrippina** » Feb 22, 2014 7:34 am

Mick wrote:
Is this abuse for the dad to smack his son for disgracing the family name,

What's the big deal about the "family name?" Who cares? You can change your name if you don't like your relatives who "disgrace the name." Big bloody deal.

bullying a boy, causing a boy pain, and distrupting society?

If a child is doing the bullying, it says more about his parents than it does about him. He's a child who hasn't been taught proper behaviour by his parents. An example. I was on FaceTime with my grandsons last night. The older boy was doing something he didn't want to share with his little brother, so he lashed out at him. His parents immediately stopped what they were doing, and said "no, we don't hit other people. Don't do that again, or you'll have to stop...." whatever it was he was doing. Then they brought out something the kids could share in, and encouraged him to play with that. His attitude towards his younger brother stopped right away.

It is not so clear to me. I'm not saying it is not abuse, but only that it is unclear.

Hitting someone else, except in self-defence, is always abuse. If you're being physically attacked (although I'd like to see how a child can attack an adult man), then you have a right to defend yourself. Otherwise, we do not hit other people.

redwhine · **#32** by **redwhine** » Feb 22, 2014 9:35 am

Mick wrote:I'm curious.

You certainly are.

:whistle:

redwhine · **#33** by **redwhine** » Feb 22, 2014 9:54 am

Agrippina wrote: (although I'd like to see how a child can attack an adult man)

Agrippina · **#34** by **Agrippina** » Feb 22, 2014 10:45 am

Yeah, I see. I'm thinking more about a little child that gets a spanking, rather than a teenager. I don't think teenagers are "children." If they're old enough to have sex and get abortions and birth control on demand, they're not children. Just my opinion.

Doubtdispelled · **#35** by **Doubtdispelled** » Feb 22, 2014 11:04 am

Agrippina wrote:
Mick wrote:
Is this abuse for the dad to smack his son for disgracing the family name,

What's the big deal about the "family name?" Who cares? You can change your name if you don't like your relatives who "disgrace the name." Big bloody deal.

I noticed this and was going to comment, Aggie. It seems to me a terribly old fashioned idea, this one of family 'disgrace'. Perhaps it is connected with the biblical ideas on 'sins of the father', but you know more about the bible than me. What does it have to say about this?

I would venture to say that these days, the idea of the family 'name' itself is outdated, an anachronism which is no longer valid.

Doubtdispelled · **#36** by **Doubtdispelled** » Feb 22, 2014 11:30 am

Nicko wrote:
Mick wrote:Is this abuse for the dad to smack his son for disgracing the family name, bullying a boy, causing a boy pain, and distrupting society? It is not so clear to me. I'm not saying it is not abuse, but only that it is unclear.

What you are failing to engage with is the fact that the relationship is usually the other way around.

Namely, that corporal punishment during childhood is highly correlated with violence as an adult, with good reason to suppose that the relationship is causal.

Interestingly, the murderer/rapist Paul Bernardo mentioned here in this thread is a perfect illustration of this, as it appears that both his father and his grandfather were abusive to their families.

BlackBart · **#37** by **BlackBart** » Feb 22, 2014 11:44 am

Mick wrote: We want them to suffer in a way, don't we?

Who's we, paleface?

Doubtdispelled · **#38** by **Doubtdispelled** » Feb 22, 2014 11:50 am

Mick wrote:Take the sexual predator and child killer Paul Bernardo (just read about him). He recieved some" prison justice" at the hands of his other inmates. Not only was this the public will (by far and large, I think) but his community members, the inmates, as a collective, deemed it fit for him. Do they have the authority? Does the public will? I don't know, but what I do know is that no one really have a shit. They were content with that desert. They call it justice.

I don't know where you get the idea that he received much "prison justice", unless your idea of 'justice' is one punch in the face.

Bernardo has been attacked and harassed at the prison. He was punched in the face by another inmate while returning from a shower in 1996. In June 1999, five convicts tried to storm the segregation range where he lives and a riot squad had to use gas to disperse them.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2010 ... tiary.html

Fallible · **#39** by **Fallible** » Feb 22, 2014 12:41 pm

Mick wrote:
Fallible wrote:
Mick wrote:
Fallible wrote:Nothing a child could do ''deserves'' physical pain.

Define what you mean here by "child"

You define what you mean by ''child''.

And why not? I'm curious.

Because to ''deserve'' pain is an idiotic concept.

Why is it idiotic? A sort of pain is deserved for our offenders, is it not? We want them to suffer in a way, don't we?

Uh yeah...bring the goal posts back to where they were, please. Or have you forgotten that you are specifically talking about spanking? ''Suffer'' is a broader notion, one which you have attempted to replace spanking with.

Who is this ''we''? It's not me. I don't want anyone to suffer. If that's the way you feel, perhaps you should be exploring why you harbour this nasty vindictive feeling towards persons unspecified and unknown. Can't be all that healthy.

Prisons are not amusement parks. They freakin suck.

Non-sequitur. What are you attempting to say here? That prisons suck and this is because ''we'' want people to suffer and this is as it should be? You need to argue for that. I'd rather follow a different system. But as I said, at the moment you're simply re-defining the subject. It was pretty clear my comments referred to the corporal punishment of children.

Fallible · **#40** by **Fallible** » Feb 22, 2014 12:44 pm

Mick wrote:
Mazille wrote:Which deliberately hitting to inflict pain as a form of retribution isn't?

You're not even trying, man.

I don't see it as clearly abusive. Take the bullying of someone by your 16 or 17 year old.

In these cases, I understand the sense of justice when the bullied kid's brother hunts the bully down and gives him a similar treatment. For that, though I might object from my arm chair, I feel a sense of satisfaction. A greater comfort comes when I substitute the brother with the bully's dad, for here a righteous authority over the bully administers the retribution.

Is this abuse for the dad to smack his son for disgracing the family name, bullying a boy, causing a boy pain, and distrupting society? It is not so clear to me. I'm not saying it is not abuse, but only that it is unclear.

Yes.

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