Mantisdreamz wrote:

Seth wrote:

Mantisdreamz wrote:I think that if you are frustrated with a child than instead of using force on them if you are upset, you can show them your dissatisfaction through your own personal actions. Sort of like, if you throw your hands in the air, grunt some words and have a disapproving face on - at least that let's off the steam, and gets the point across.

One should never spank out of frustration, one should only spank to gain and focus attention on specific misbehavior and to reinforce both discipline and respect for the necessary family power structure, and to demonstrate that there are immediate and unpleasant consequences for improper action. Like revenge, discipline is a dish best served cold.

I understand completely. But, you don't want your child to be afraid of you in that way. You know, as if acting like they are in the military. They might grow to resent that.

Or, they might grow to appreciate it when they grow up to be self-disciplined, effective, competent adults. Besides, you misconstrue the need for corporal punishment in rare circumstances with being an abusive, overbearing martinet.

Right, I agree self discipline is what makes people move forward, but you wouldn't want it to be based upon fear. For example, "I must do this because this is the way it should be". Ideally it should be based upon a person's own true motives.

I don't disagree that there is a need for parents to show themselves as sort of... 'alpha' to the child. Trust me, I have witnessed many circumstances where the child actually runs the parent amuck, and it's a bit revolting. But, I still don't necessarily think that violence is much good in enforcing your role as parent.

Maybe a few paddy whacks in good nature to get a child moving if he or she needs to get onto something, like "go on, get into the doctor's office for that needle". But, as you mentioned, out of frustration, is the worst.

Seth wrote:

Sometimes waiting is not an option. My father's reaction to my paperclip experimentation was entirely appropriate and immediately necessary, and it had precisely the desired effect without any long-term ill effects at all.

I'll disagree.

Like disciplining animals, disciplining children requires immediacy of punishment,

Especially here. It does not have to be immediate, they're not dogs. And sometimes, depending on the situation, it can't be immediate.

so that the consequences are directly connected to the bad behavior.

Lets say a child was told not to climb a tree, but does it anyways. Said child falls, breaks an arm. That's the consequence. No need to "punish" (spank) him, he's already learned what the consequence was, and it was still connected to the bad behavior.

Even a very young child (let's say two) may still be able to know that certain consequences will be connected to certain bad behaviors when the punishment is not immediate.

Trying to have a rational discussion about bad behavior with an unrepentant four year old is merely going to cause the lesson to be lost entirely.

I'll disagree here as well. I've had great success with my two year old nephew by talking to him. No spanking was required, and he hasn't forgotten any of it.

If children were capable of making well-reasoned, thought-out decisions they wouldn't misbehave in the first place,

You're confusing the fact that sometimes children act out, with the idea that they must always be 100% rational. I know plenty of rational adults that sometimes act not so rational at times.

and the idea that one can always "reason" with a child is, generally speaking, an idea created by people who appear to have never actually raised children.

Hogwash. Plenty of parents have learned how to discipline their child without having to use violence.

Certainly there are many methods of discipline, and spanking should be reserved for serious or intractable misbehavior,

Or never at all. Even for serious behavior, it's not necessarily needed.

but it has to remain part of the arsenal of parents.

Sure, but that doesn't mean they ever have to actually use it.
You have not convinced me Seth. I still stand by my position I had already explained earlier in this thread. I still maintain that spanking is simply an bad habit. Cheers!

Does Seth have children, I'm not sure if he has ever said. If he does in what circumstances does he spank them and if he doesn't what does he spank at home that makes him an authority?

Far too many people only spank out of anger, and I think fewer people use spanking with thoughtfulness and restraint than those who do it out of any angry knee-jerk reaction. Obviously I don't have any numbers to back this up.
All I know is that my parents spank out of anger, and the level of terror I had of my father when I was a child was quite sad. I had no relationship with my father until I was an adult because he was abusive. I think spanking can become a slippery slope.

As far as I'm concerned spanking/slapping/hitting children does one thing and one thing only.

It teaches them that their most important role-models, their parents, use violence as a way to resolve a problem.

MacIver wrote:As far as I'm concerned spanking/slapping/hitting children does one thing and one thing only.

It teaches them that their most important role-models, their parents, use violence as a way to resolve a problem.

I've used violence to solve problems in the past, and I certainly wouldn't rule out using violence again in the future. Using violence when there is a better way of resolving the problem is a different matter, but to rule out violence as an option in solving problems altogether is unrealistic.

MacIver wrote:As far as I'm concerned spanking/slapping/hitting children does one thing and one thing only.

It teaches them that their most important role-models, their parents, use violence as a way to resolve a problem.

I'm hearing a lot about the parents' point of view, but what about the kids? I was spanked only once as a child, and it was because I'd run away from home because ... get this: I didn't want to go to church one Sunday. Church was not so bad, I just didn't FEEL LIKE GOING, ferheavenssakes, and no one would listen to me.

I left the house when no one was paying attention and walked and walked. Eventually, my brother found me (as he had apparently come out looking for me), and he told me how everyone was looking for me, and how mad Dad was. We sat down and talked for a while, and I won him over to my side of the argument, so he joined me and we walked and walked together.

After a while, Dad came by in the car. He had obviously been looking for us and was VERY pissed off. He got us into the car and brought us home. Oddly, I have no recollection of what my brother's "punishment" was, but only recall that I was spanked the minute we got back in the house, and sent to my room. Mom came in and sat me down and asked me (and I'll never forget this) "What have you learned?" In my even-then child's mind (I was maybe 7 or 8), I already knew what the EXPECTED answer was, and I was damned if I was going to satisfy her by giving it. Besides, I was DETERMINED to nip this unacceptable behavior in the bud. No kidding, that was my precise train of thought. I looked her straight in the eye and said with fierce conviction: "That Daddy is mean." and would not say another word about it. I was DETERMINED to stop this unacceptable behavior on the part of my parents, and I KNEW that this answer would hit back and hit 'em hard. It worked. I was NEVER spanked again.

I recall only one other brush with spanking: There was a large family in the neighborhood whose parents were known for spanking first and asking questions later. One day we kids were hanging around at their house, playing in the yard and going in and out of the house: stuff like kids do... and I had an idea to put a clover plant into the family's fish tank. Something "new" for the fishes in there to look at. Later that day, one of the kids came and found me and told me that their mom was very angry with me for having put a clover into the fish tank, and that she was planning/intending to spank me. I will NEVER forget the indignant, white-hot rage that rose in me at the very thought that SOMEONE ELSE'S PARENT would have the idiot nerve to threaten me with the kind of punishment they meted out in THEIR family. I told the kid to TELL HER MOTHER to come on ahead out and find me to spank me, but that if she tried, I would FIGHT BACK. And BOY did I MEAN IT. Even the kid was taken aback by my vehemence. I am CERTAIN that if that woman had tried to lift a hand, I would've had to have been pried off of her with a crowbar. I have no doubt that I would have been instantly, utterly violent. Thing is, this is ODD because I have actually never hit anyone in all my life, and am normally a completely peace-seeking person. It was just that one time that I remember so very vividly that I would have defended myself, I am certain of it. This can only be described as blind, indignant, RAGE. My thought about this spanking parent? "How DARE she even THREATEN me with her barbaric, archaic excuse for what SHE considered 'discipline'."

So. It may well be that the kids are far more aware of what's going on than the adults give them credit for.

Just saying...

Mac_Guffin wrote:

cathyincali wrote:I spanked my kids once, and it was definitely a "Hall of Shame" moment. They were pretty young and hitting each other, and normal techniques (words, separation) didn't work in this particular intense physical tussle. In just a few seconds, I was so angry at their completely abnormal violence toward each other, I hit both of their legs (at the same time) three times as I said, "We [hit] do not hit [hit] in this house. [hit]" It was so crazy that I HIT them as I said that we DON'T hit, and of course we were all so stunned (since I didn't spank), that we all just stopped instantly.


Then of course I had to apologize for hitting them and of course we all talked about violence leading to more violence and blah - blah - blah.

My kids liked to say as they grew older that they wished I DID spank, it would be over in a second, but instead I always TALK to them about their behavior, and that could go on for a while....There was a bit of truth in that, but I don't really think they REALLY would have preferred a mom who spanks!

Anyway, yeah, not a good parenting technique. Had to forgive myself and go on, being the best parent I could be...

That reminds me of the high school here. They give you a choice between being paddled or going to ISSP (some euphemism for detention ). Most people I knew chose the paddle... It kind of says something about the effectiveness of the punishment.

Cathy, that story is pretty funny.

Sorry just catching up with this thread, but Mac_G, they did that in high school?? That's pretty weird. We just got sent out of class, and had to sit next to the door, which wasn't always so bad actually, especially if you had company.

In grade school, I had a teacher that would spank us on our birthdays. It was embarrassing. She'd have us stretch across her lap, and she would sing & spank us with a ruler. I think I was about 8 years old, so I got 8 big whopings. Not very fun when you are a shy, awkward child.

thaesofereode wrote:

MacIver wrote:As far as I'm concerned spanking/slapping/hitting children does one thing and one thing only.

It teaches them that their most important role-models, their parents, use violence as a way to resolve a problem.

I'm hearing a lot about the parents' point of view, but what about the kids?

I gave my perspective as a spankee a few posts up...

Mantisdreamz wrote:

Mac_Guffin wrote:

cathyincali wrote:I spanked my kids once, and it was definitely a "Hall of Shame" moment. They were pretty young and hitting each other, and normal techniques (words, separation) didn't work in this particular intense physical tussle. In just a few seconds, I was so angry at their completely abnormal violence toward each other, I hit both of their legs (at the same time) three times as I said, "We [hit] do not hit [hit] in this house. [hit]" It was so crazy that I HIT them as I said that we DON'T hit, and of course we were all so stunned (since I didn't spank), that we all just stopped instantly.


Then of course I had to apologize for hitting them and of course we all talked about violence leading to more violence and blah - blah - blah.

My kids liked to say as they grew older that they wished I DID spank, it would be over in a second, but instead I always TALK to them about their behavior, and that could go on for a while....There was a bit of truth in that, but I don't really think they REALLY would have preferred a mom who spanks!

Anyway, yeah, not a good parenting technique. Had to forgive myself and go on, being the best parent I could be...

That reminds me of the high school here. They give you a choice between being paddled or going to ISSP (some euphemism for detention ). Most people I knew chose the paddle... It kind of says something about the effectiveness of the punishment.

Cathy, that story is pretty funny.

Sorry just catching up with this thread, but Mac_G, they did that in high school?? That's pretty weird. We just got sent out of class, and had to sit next to the door, which wasn't always so bad actually, especially if you had company.

In grade school, I had a teacher that would spank us on our birthdays. It was embarrassing. She'd have us stretch across her lap, and she would sing & spank us with a ruler. I think I was about 8 years old, so I got 8 big whopings. Not very fun when you are a shy, awkward child.

Yes, they offered it as a choice.
However, in some of the elementary schools (Where I went, there's a Kindergarten, a school for 1st and 2nd grade, one for 2rd and 4th, one for 5th and 6th, a junior high for 7th and 8th, and the high school.), they paddled if your parents gave permission, but it was rare. I could be wrong, but I think it was on the Kindergarten and 5th/6th grade schools that allowed paddling because I don't remember it elsewhere.

I had a French teacher in 4th grade who used to act like she was going to strangle us when she was annoyed or one of us did something stupid.
Even though it was done in good fun, it used to scare the shit out of me.

Speaking of cruel punishments, my Geography teacher in 7th grade (He was a bit of a conserrvative redneck, but I have to admit that I did well in his class and actually learned quite a bit... Plus, he was fun sometimes.) made me do bear crawls across the football field because I forgot to do my homework.
Another thing he used to do (not a punishment) was make us take notes for every movie we watched in his class. We never just watched a movie for fun.
He influenced a lot of other teachers to do the same.

Mac_Guffin wrote:
I had a French teacher in 4th grade who used to act like she was going to strangle us when she was annoyed or one of us did something stupid.
Even though it was done in good fun, it used to scare the shit out of me.

Speaking of cruel punishments, my Geography teacher in 7th grade (He was a bit of a conserrvative redneck, but I have to admit that I did well in his class and actually learned quite a bit... Plus, he was fun sometimes.) made me do bear crawls across the football field because I forgot to do my homework.
Another thing he used to do (not a punishment) was make us take notes for every movie we watched in his class. We never just watched a movie for fun.
He influenced a lot of other teachers to do the same.

We had the same thing, the teacher would give us out a list of questions before the movie, so instead of actually watching the movie, we'd all be panicked to listen to key words and scribble down our answers.

I had a teacher who used to make us do laps around the portable if they misbehaved. So, the rest of the class would watch out the window cheering on the poor fool who was running around... Actually, it was a bit funny.

In grade 8 I had a teacher who would keep us after class and just yell at us. The problem with that was that she was a bit on the heavy side and she had a few chins, so when she yelled all we could pay attention to was her blubbery neck, which made us laugh, making her yell even more. Maybe that's mean?

Anyway, to get back to the OP, I never had a teacher who used force.

I noticed there was a post in regards to animals as well. And the same thing with them, maybe a tap on the nose, but as mentioned, same as children, animals will resent you and I've seen times in that the animal actually builds a complex and is more prone to lash out.

mmmcheezy wrote:Far too many people only spank out of anger, and I think fewer people use spanking with thoughtfulness and restraint than those who do it out of any angry knee-jerk reaction. Obviously I don't have any numbers to back this up.
All I know is that my parents spank out of anger, and the level of terror I had of my father when I was a child was quite sad. I had no relationship with my father until I was an adult because he was abusive. I think spanking can become a slippery slope.

This I can agree with. Being a parent is not easy, and many people who are parents are not suited to being parents.

Mantisdreamz wrote:

Mac_Guffin wrote:
I had a French teacher in 4th grade who used to act like she was going to strangle us when she was annoyed or one of us did something stupid.
Even though it was done in good fun, it used to scare the shit out of me.

Speaking of cruel punishments, my Geography teacher in 7th grade (He was a bit of a conserrvative redneck, but I have to admit that I did well in his class and actually learned quite a bit... Plus, he was fun sometimes.) made me do bear crawls across the football field because I forgot to do my homework.
Another thing he used to do (not a punishment) was make us take notes for every movie we watched in his class. We never just watched a movie for fun.
He influenced a lot of other teachers to do the same.

We had the same thing, the teacher would give us out a list of questions before the movie, so instead of actually watching the movie, we'd all be panicked to listen to key words and scribble down our answers.

I had a teacher who used to make us do laps around the portable if they misbehaved. So, the rest of the class would watch out the window cheering on the poor fool who was running around... Actually, it was a bit funny.

In grade 8 I had a teacher who would keep us after class and just yell at us. The problem with that was that she was a bit on the heavy side and she had a few chins, so when she yelled all we could pay attention to was her blubbery neck, which made us laugh, making her yell even more. Maybe that's mean?

Anyway, to get back to the OP, I never had a teacher who used force.

I noticed there was a post in regards to animals as well. And the same thing with them, maybe a tap on the nose, but as mentioned, same as children, animals will resent you and I've seen times in that the animal actually builds a complex and is more prone to lash out.

I think I might start a thread about this. I'd like to read different people's school stories.

mmmcheezy wrote:Far too many people only spank out of anger, and I think fewer people use spanking with thoughtfulness and restraint than those who do it out of any angry knee-jerk reaction.

This might well be true, and certainly more spankings are administered out of anger. Parents who use spanking with thoughtfulness and restraint don't do it very often, while I'd guess parents who do it out of anger do it pretty frequently.

thaesofereode wrote:I was DETERMINED to stop this unacceptable behavior on the part of my parents, and I KNEW that this answer would hit back and hit 'em hard. It worked. I was NEVER spanked again.

Did you ever run away from home again? If not, maybe it was the spanking that worked.

Warren Dew wrote:

mmmcheezy wrote:Far too many people only spank out of anger, and I think fewer people use spanking with thoughtfulness and restraint than those who do it out of any angry knee-jerk reaction.

This might well be true, and certainly more spankings are administered out of anger. Parents who use spanking with thoughtfulness and restraint don't do it very often, while I'd guess parents who do it out of anger do it pretty frequently.

thaesofereode wrote:I was DETERMINED to stop this unacceptable behavior on the part of my parents, and I KNEW that this answer would hit back and hit 'em hard. It worked. I was NEVER spanked again.

Did you ever run away from home again? If not, maybe it was the spanking that worked.

Didn't have occasion to. But I don't see these facts as related. If I'd needed to, I would've done the same thing again. As I said, the church-going thing was not a problem for me, and it was just that one time I wasn't in the mood to go, and saw no other alternative to keep them from forcing me to go when I didn't want to.

mmmcheezy wrote:

thaesofereode wrote:

MacIver wrote:As far as I'm concerned spanking/slapping/hitting children does one thing and one thing only.

It teaches them that their most important role-models, their parents, use violence as a way to resolve a problem.

I'm hearing a lot about the parents' point of view, but what about the kids?

I gave my perspective as a spankee a few posts up...

Acknowledged! I guess a more accurate statement on my part would've been "but what about MORE from the kids?" The more those who suffered these indignities speak up about how it affected them, perhaps the more the parent-people would be shown just how, not only damaging, but also counter-productive their behavior is.

thaesofereode wrote:

mmmcheezy wrote:

thaesofereode wrote:

MacIver wrote:As far as I'm concerned spanking/slapping/hitting children does one thing and one thing only.

It teaches them that their most important role-models, their parents, use violence as a way to resolve a problem.

I'm hearing a lot about the parents' point of view, but what about the kids?

I gave my perspective as a spankee a few posts up...

Acknowledged! I guess a more accurate statement on my part would've been "but what about MORE from the kids?" The more those who suffered these indignities speak up about how it affected them, perhaps the more the parent-people would be shown just how, not only damaging, but also counter-productive their behavior is.

Growing up, I took a bit of a abuse, but it was more so words than physical. I'd say looking back, I can remember quite a bit of the words, and at the time, I really just tried to shrug it off, but I know it had an affect on my confidence. As for looking back on physical abuse from time to time, it's a similar thing, but my situation was a bit different, my parents were both unhappy & drank a lot. At the time, that sort of thing mostly just affected my nerves and caused a melancholy/confused state of mind. All in all, I think it's best not to take your anger out on a child - even if they are causing you a world of frustration. Stern, constructive words even if conveyed with a bit of irrationality caused by the moment are probably the best way to go, as tricky as it might be to withhold yourself. Or like I mentioned, I know comparing animals & children are a very different situation, but I find when I get upset with my pets (they are extreme troublemakers), I just stomp my foot and throw my hands in the air, or something of the sort... or even pretend to be pissed off. It seems to have a good effect.

I can't decide which is worst.
Spanking in anger. Or spanking in a cool, calculated way.

Spanking in anger teaches children that it's OK to lash out violently.
Spanking in a cool, calculated way teaches children that deliberate violence and revenge is OK.

Globe wrote:I can't decide which is worst.
Spanking in anger. Or spanking in a cool, calculated way.

Spanking in anger teaches children that it's OK to lash out violently.
Spanking in a cool, calculated way teaches children that deliberate violence and revenge is OK.

That's a very good point.