UK schools failing in teaching of Christianity

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Re: UK schools failing in teaching of Christianity

#41  Postby Aern Rakesh » Nov 27, 2012 4:03 pm

HomerJay wrote:
Nora_Leonard wrote:When I was finished I asked an RE teacher friend who also happens to be Christian to have a look at it. One of the things that she thought I'd got 'right' was emphasising how Easter is by far the more important festival to a Christian than Christmas.

Anyway, I'm really reluctant to spend much time discussing it here, because I just expect anything I say on the subject to be ripped to shreds.

:naughty2:

This is one of the problems when discussing 'Christianity' with children. How do you express disparate views across the community?

Do you end up parroting orthodoxy or even just currents views, as with Easter, which was never really viewed as the most important festival but has become more fashionable recently as a sort of anti Christmas thing.

In the UK the figures say that Cathedral attendance at Christmas is 3 times that at Easter, so the casual Christians don't seem to view it in that manner. These days the casual Chrsitians are in the vast majority too.

I would not say that this was Neutral fact 'about' Christianity. It could easily make children who identify as coming from a Christian tradition feel that they're not doing it right.

http://www.brin.ac.uk/news/2012/eastert ... ican-news/


Oh, I definitely agree with you that casual/cultural Christians celebrate Christmas more. I imagine most of the people on this forum celebrate it to some extent (I would have thought, unless they are in a country where it is not a national holiday).

In fact I suspect that is why my Christian friend said what she did, i.e. to highlight the difference. This would be important to her as she is a Jew converted to Christianity.

And as regards diversity within a tradition, it is hoped that most teachers will acknowledge that, for instance saying "most Christians" or, as totally surprised me, "some humanists believe in some kind of survival of consciousness after death".

As you can well imagine, you're never going to please absolutely everybody. For instance, you might expect that 'nativity plays' were anathema to Muslims. In fact, in our borough, I was told by a group of heads that their Muslim kids/parents would be highly insulted if their children weren't asked to be in the nativity play (not that all schools have them).

Also, a head in one of our schools was telling me about a local Baptist church that had to suddenly adapt their summer Bible class when about half the kids that were enrolled by their parents turned out to be Muslim. (Guess the parents thought that would be a safe place to park their kids.) Apparently it went very well. :smoke:
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Re: UK schools failing in teaching of Christianity

#42  Postby Ian Tattum » Nov 27, 2012 4:06 pm

HomerJay wrote:
Nora_Leonard wrote:When I was finished I asked an RE teacher friend who also happens to be Christian to have a look at it. One of the things that she thought I'd got 'right' was emphasising how Easter is by far the more important festival to a Christian than Christmas.

Anyway, I'm really reluctant to spend much time discussing it here, because I just expect anything I say on the subject to be ripped to shreds.

:naughty2:

This is one of the problems when discussing 'Christianity' with children. How do you express disparate views across the community?

Do you end up parroting orthodoxy or even just currents views, as with Easter, which was never really viewed as the most important festival but has become more fashionable recently as a sort of anti Christmas thing.

In the UK the figures say that Cathedral attendance at Christmas is 3 times that at Easter, so the casual Christians don't seem to view it in that manner. These days the casual Chrsitians are in the vast majority too.

I would not say that this was Neutral fact 'about' Christianity. It could easily make children who identify as coming from a Christian tradition feel that they're not doing it right.

http://www.brin.ac.uk/news/2012/eastert ... ican-news/

Nora is quite right, Christmas is an evolutionary development from Epiphany,!
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Re: UK schools failing in teaching of Christianity

#43  Postby Matthew Shute » Nov 27, 2012 4:17 pm

Ian Tattum wrote:
HomerJay wrote:
Nora_Leonard wrote:When I was finished I asked an RE teacher friend who also happens to be Christian to have a look at it. One of the things that she thought I'd got 'right' was emphasising how Easter is by far the more important festival to a Christian than Christmas.

Anyway, I'm really reluctant to spend much time discussing it here, because I just expect anything I say on the subject to be ripped to shreds.

:naughty2:

This is one of the problems when discussing 'Christianity' with children. How do you express disparate views across the community?

Do you end up parroting orthodoxy or even just currents views, as with Easter, which was never really viewed as the most important festival but has become more fashionable recently as a sort of anti Christmas thing.

In the UK the figures say that Cathedral attendance at Christmas is 3 times that at Easter, so the casual Christians don't seem to view it in that manner. These days the casual Chrsitians are in the vast majority too.

I would not say that this was Neutral fact 'about' Christianity. It could easily make children who identify as coming from a Christian tradition feel that they're not doing it right.

http://www.brin.ac.uk/news/2012/eastert ... ican-news/

Nora is quite right, Christmas is an evolutionary development from Epiphany,!


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Re: UK schools failing in teaching of Christianity

#44  Postby HomerJay » Nov 27, 2012 4:24 pm

Ian Tattum wrote:
HomerJay wrote:
Nora_Leonard wrote:When I was finished I asked an RE teacher friend who also happens to be Christian to have a look at it. One of the things that she thought I'd got 'right' was emphasising how Easter is by far the more important festival to a Christian than Christmas.

Anyway, I'm really reluctant to spend much time discussing it here, because I just expect anything I say on the subject to be ripped to shreds.

:naughty2:

This is one of the problems when discussing 'Christianity' with children. How do you express disparate views across the community?

Do you end up parroting orthodoxy or even just currents views, as with Easter, which was never really viewed as the most important festival but has become more fashionable recently as a sort of anti Christmas thing.

In the UK the figures say that Cathedral attendance at Christmas is 3 times that at Easter, so the casual Christians don't seem to view it in that manner. These days the casual Chrsitians are in the vast majority too.

I would not say that this was Neutral fact 'about' Christianity. It could easily make children who identify as coming from a Christian tradition feel that they're not doing it right.

http://www.brin.ac.uk/news/2012/eastert ... ican-news/

Nora is quite right, Christmas is an evolutionary development from Epiphany,!

Right in which sense, that some Christians like to think it is the most important?

From the BBC:

Easter commemorates the resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is the most important Christian festival, and the one celebrated with the greatest joy.

:rofl:

How the fuck have they measured Joy? With a Joyometer? Again culturally, in the UK, Christmas has much more of a sense of joy than Easter (the seson of good will, whereas Easter is a meh bank holiday, damp, with nothing to do), although perhaps when you talk of 'Christians' we mean Catholics, as they are the majority culture?
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Re: UK schools failing in teaching of Christianity

#45  Postby THWOTH » Nov 27, 2012 4:34 pm

.

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Re: UK schools failing in teaching of Christianity

#46  Postby Matthew Shute » Nov 27, 2012 4:37 pm

HomerJay wrote:
Ian Tattum wrote:
HomerJay wrote:
Nora_Leonard wrote:When I was finished I asked an RE teacher friend who also happens to be Christian to have a look at it. One of the things that she thought I'd got 'right' was emphasising how Easter is by far the more important festival to a Christian than Christmas.

Anyway, I'm really reluctant to spend much time discussing it here, because I just expect anything I say on the subject to be ripped to shreds.

:naughty2:

This is one of the problems when discussing 'Christianity' with children. How do you express disparate views across the community?

Do you end up parroting orthodoxy or even just currents views, as with Easter, which was never really viewed as the most important festival but has become more fashionable recently as a sort of anti Christmas thing.

In the UK the figures say that Cathedral attendance at Christmas is 3 times that at Easter, so the casual Christians don't seem to view it in that manner. These days the casual Chrsitians are in the vast majority too.

I would not say that this was Neutral fact 'about' Christianity. It could easily make children who identify as coming from a Christian tradition feel that they're not doing it right.

http://www.brin.ac.uk/news/2012/eastert ... ican-news/

Nora is quite right, Christmas is an evolutionary development from Epiphany,!

Right in which sense, that some Christians like to think it is the most important?

From the BBC:

Easter commemorates the resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is the most important Christian festival, and the one celebrated with the greatest joy.

:rofl:

How the fuck have they measured Joy? With a Joyometer?

:thumbup:

Again culturally, in the UK, Christmas has much more of a sense of joy than Easter

But how the fuck did you measure that? With a joystick waggle-o-meter?
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Re: UK schools failing in teaching of Christianity

#47  Postby Simon_Gardner » Nov 27, 2012 5:33 pm

Nora_Leonard wrote:One of the things that she thought I'd got 'right' was emphasising how Easter is by far the more important festival to a Christian than Christmas.

Hence I've never understood why Bill O'Reilly and all the US Christian blowhards get so worked up about Christmas instead of Easter.

And it's why the time to picket a church is Easter and not Christmas.
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Re: UK schools failing in teaching of Christianity

#48  Postby Clive Durdle » Nov 27, 2012 6:31 pm

It is quite obvious the damage that has been caused to Dutch children by not doing RE. They are all carrying out regularly that satanic ritual, what is it called? Ah yes, cycling...
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Re: UK schools failing in teaching of Christianity

#49  Postby Corneel » Nov 29, 2012 9:02 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:How can schools fail in teaching mumbo jumbo and fairy tales.

RE is not required.
Not taught in Dutch public schools and Dutch kids seem to manage without it.
Less than 30% of all Dutch students go to public schools. And most of the other schools are based on religion so... (The same is true in Belgium BTW).
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Re: UK schools failing in teaching of Christianity

#50  Postby Ian Tattum » Nov 29, 2012 9:43 am

HomerJay wrote:
Ian Tattum wrote:
HomerJay wrote:
Nora_Leonard wrote:When I was finished I asked an RE teacher friend who also happens to be Christian to have a look at it. One of the things that she thought I'd got 'right' was emphasising how Easter is by far the more important festival to a Christian than Christmas.

Anyway, I'm really reluctant to spend much time discussing it here, because I just expect anything I say on the subject to be ripped to shreds.

:naughty2:

This is one of the problems when discussing 'Christianity' with children. How do you express disparate views across the community?

Do you end up parroting orthodoxy or even just currents views, as with Easter, which was never really viewed as the most important festival but has become more fashionable recently as a sort of anti Christmas thing.

In the UK the figures say that Cathedral attendance at Christmas is 3 times that at Easter, so the casual Christians don't seem to view it in that manner. These days the casual Chrsitians are in the vast majority too.

I would not say that this was Neutral fact 'about' Christianity. It could easily make children who identify as coming from a Christian tradition feel that they're not doing it right.

http://www.brin.ac.uk/news/2012/eastert ... ican-news/

Nora is quite right, Christmas is an evolutionary development from Epiphany,!

Right in which sense, that some Christians like to think it is the most important?

From the BBC:

Easter commemorates the resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is the most important Christian festival, and the one celebrated with the greatest joy.

:rofl:

How the fuck have they measured Joy? With a Joyometer? Again culturally, in the UK, Christmas has much more of a sense of joy than Easter (the seson of good will, whereas Easter is a meh bank holiday, damp, with nothing to do), although perhaps when you talk of 'Christians' we mean Catholics, as they are the majority culture?

You are making a very good case for compulsory RE :angel:
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Re: UK schools failing in teaching of Christianity

#51  Postby HomerJay » Nov 29, 2012 11:34 am

Ian Tattum wrote:You are making a very good case for compulsory RE :angel:

It's not my fault if Christians eschew their own traditions. :doh:
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Re: UK schools failing in teaching of Christianity

#52  Postby Ian Tattum » Nov 29, 2012 3:35 pm

HomerJay wrote:
Ian Tattum wrote:You are making a very good case for compulsory RE :angel:

It's not my fault if Christians eschew their own traditions. :doh:

Apart from the RC's ,the Anglicans, the Orthodox, the Copts etc ;)
But part of the confusion is that Easter grew like Topsy once christianity became legal. Holy Week, Easter itself and the Ascension were thus extensions of Easter, and really most people outside the churches,those of a Protestant disposition, and not a few regular churchgoers within them have forgotten- if they ever knew, so you have a point!
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Re: UK schools failing in teaching of Christianity

#53  Postby HomerJay » Nov 29, 2012 5:11 pm

Ian Tattum wrote:
HomerJay wrote:
Ian Tattum wrote:You are making a very good case for compulsory RE :angel:

It's not my fault if Christians eschew their own traditions. :doh:

Apart from the RC's ,the Anglicans, the Orthodox, the Copts etc ;)
But part of the confusion is that Easter grew like Topsy once christianity became legal. Holy Week, Easter itself and the Ascension were thus extensions of Easter, and really most people outside the churches,those of a Protestant disposition, and not a few regular churchgoers within them have forgotten- if they ever knew, so you have a point!

But again part of it comes back to whose culture, those casual christians who are much more likely to attend church at christmas than easter, the secular commercialisation of christmas etc.

Even then though, how many of us know the tunes, if not at least some of the words to Christmas carols?

Lots of these are very ancient now and even ones only a couple of hundred years old follow a medieval musical style. Usually much more up tempo and uplifting than anything you get at easter.

What about wassailing at Christmas? How long has that been going on for, more than a thousand years? Surely a lot more fun getting drunk than sitting in a church pondering the resurrection and sin, even for christians?

I wonder if it's something to do with christmas having a very simply message and narrative that can be sung about, Easter less so?

Here's an Easter Hymn 'Christ the Lord is risen today' I doubt 1% of the people who have ever sung it understood it:

http://www.oremus.org/hymnal/c/c101.html
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Re: UK schools failing in teaching of Christianity

#54  Postby Aern Rakesh » Nov 29, 2012 5:15 pm

I printed out the scheme of work I did for Christianity and thought I'd give you a brief account of what we try to do, i.e. the aims (targets) for each lesson.

Keep in mind that this unit will be delivered some time in key stage 2 (i.e. grades 3-6). We don't dictate what year they deliver it, and as a result they have to adapt it to the age of their pupils. Also, if there is a specialist RE teacher at the school (not usual in primary schools) they'll tend to create their own schemes.

1st lesson: Jesus of Nazareth
Targets: Pupils understand that Christians follow the teaching and example of Jesus and believe that he is the saviour of humankind. They think about teachers and leaders who have inspired them, and what qualities these people possess.

2nd lesson: The Bible
Targets: Pupils understand that the Bible is a source for Christian belief and teaching, and they are able to talk about the things that inspire and guide them.

3rd lesson: The Church
Targets: Pupils learn that the church is both a building and the community of believers. They understand that two important rites of passage for Christians are baptism and confirmation. They think about how being part of a supportive community affects their day-to-day lives.

4th lesson: Ritual reflecting belief
Targets: Pupils understand that baptism and communion are 'sacraments' that reflect important Christian beliefs. They think about the meaning behind their own symbolic actions, whether religious or otherwise.

5th lesson: The Christian year
Targets: Pupils understand that the Christian Church has its own calendar with special names for certain times of the year, and that festivals such as Christmas and Easter mark important events in Jesus’ life. They consider the importance of ritual and ceremony in life, e.g. birthday, sports day, school celebrations.

6th lesson: The importance of Easter
Targets: Pupils understand that belief in Jesus’ resurrection, which is celebrated at Easter, is central to the Christian religion. They understand that Christians believe that Jesus died to save humankind from their sins. They think about their own beliefs about what happens to us at death.

I'm particularly interested to hear whether the Christians/ex-Christians on the forum think I've left anything crucial out, keeping in mind that this is for grade-school kids.
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Re: UK schools failing in teaching of Christianity

#55  Postby HomerJay » Nov 29, 2012 5:35 pm

One of the researchers of the report is spouting over a guardian:

The science and religion debate is a staple part of secondary RE

I hope he is completely fucking wrong with that.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/teacher-netwo ... rigorously
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Re: UK schools failing in teaching of Christianity

#56  Postby Cito di Pense » Nov 29, 2012 6:38 pm

Nora_Leonard wrote:IThey understand that two important rites of passage for Christians are baptism and confirmation

Targets: Pupils understand that baptism and communion are 'sacraments' that reflect important Christian beliefs.

They consider the importance of ritual and ceremony in life, e.g. birthday, sports day, school celebrations.

6th lesson: The importance of Easter

Targets: Pupils understand that belief in Jesus’ resurrection, which is celebrated at Easter, is central to the Christian religion. They understand that Christians believe that Jesus died to save humankind from their sins. They think about their own beliefs about what happens to us at death.

I'm particularly interested to hear whether the Christians/ex-Christians on the forum think I've left anything crucial out, keeping in mind that this is for grade-school kids.


Importance... importance... importance. Important to whom? Yup. To xians. Now we know what xians believe, that is, what is important to them about xianity. It's a bit circular, but golly, I guess we need a fuck of a lot of bureaucracy to make sure that someone fucking knows what is fucking important to xians.

Another way to put this is: If your work supervisor is xian, don't piss off him or her by dissing xianity in the workplace. It's a useful bit of advice about who runs things. If they didn't fucking run things, this bureaucracy would be a bit smaller.

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Re: UK schools failing in teaching of Christianity

#57  Postby Aern Rakesh » Nov 29, 2012 6:49 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
Importance... importance... importance. Important to whom? Yup. To xians. Now we know what xians believe, that is, what is important to them about xianity.


:scratch: I'm not sure I see your point? In a unit on the beliefs and practices of Christianity would you expect to learn about what it important to...Buddhists?
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Re: UK schools failing in teaching of Christianity

#58  Postby Cito di Pense » Nov 29, 2012 6:52 pm

Nora_Leonard wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
Importance... importance... importance. Important to whom? Yup. To xians. Now we know what xians believe, that is, what is important to them about xianity.


:scratch: I'm not sure I see your point? In a unit on the beliefs and practices of Christianity would you expect to learn about what it important to...Buddhists?


That's right, Nora, you really don't see my point. After I find out what is important to xians, how am I fucking wiser, except insofar as it helps me avoid pissing off xians by not 'understanding' their weird traditions? Mustn't piss off the xians.

As for the Sikhs and Buddhists, well, they are minorities, and they're pissed off simply because they're minorities. It takes very fucking little to piss off a minority. If you don't believe me, go check out Atheism+ and the xian quest for 'social justice' in an xian society.
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Re: UK schools failing in teaching of Christianity

#59  Postby Aern Rakesh » Nov 29, 2012 6:57 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
Nora_Leonard wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
Importance... importance... importance. Important to whom? Yup. To xians. Now we know what xians believe, that is, what is important to them about xianity.


:scratch: I'm not sure I see your point? In a unit on the beliefs and practices of Christianity would you expect to learn about what it important to...Buddhists?


That's right, Nora, you really don't see my point. After I find out what is important to xians, how am I fucking wiser, except insofar as it helps me avoid pissing off xians by not 'understanding' their weird traditions? Mustn't piss off the xians.

As for the Sikhs and Buddhists, well, they are minorities, and they're pissed off simply because they're minorities. It takes very fucking little to piss off a minority. If you don't believe me, go check out Atheism+ and the xian quest for 'social justice' in an xian society.


So what would you teach in a unit on Christian beliefs and practices to primary school children? Do tell.
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Re: UK schools failing in teaching of Christianity

#60  Postby Doubtdispelled » Nov 29, 2012 6:59 pm

:coffee:
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