Wearing a Hijab to class

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Re: Wearing a Hijab to class

#41  Postby Melhael » Mar 12, 2010 10:16 am

Nora_Leonard wrote:Melhael, I can't be certain about this, but from what you've written above you seem to be saying that it is only men who make the decisions about the wearing of the hijab.


It's imposed by men on women. But I don't mean by that every single Muslim woman wearing the hijab has had a man personally tell her to do so.

There is nobody telling me not to wear make-up, stilettos or miniskirts. Yet, I know what I can and cannot do. I could claim all I want that "not wearing a skirt is a personal choice", that would be utter BS. Society tells me I can't do it. Just like Muslim society tells Muslim women to wear a hijab.

This may look like a choice to them. Indeed it sometimes is, incidentally. But if sociology has taught me anything, it's that none of what we do/think/wear is entirely up to us.

Now, in the case of me and the miniskirt: no harm done. My gender has never suffered from oppression by evil women trying to prevent us from wearing their garments. It's self-inflicted. We men did this. (Inconsistently. Scots wear skirts. :))

In the case of the hijab we have a religious symbol that is supposed to be worn by women only. That in itself is sexist: that's the whole definition of sexism. But the worst part is why they are expected to wear and what the consequences of wearing it / not wearing it are.

Nora_Leonard wrote:I do not believe this to be the case, and until it is proven beyond all doubt, I'm going to come down on the side of Muslim women who chose to wear the hijab rather than siding with western men who would tell them not to do it. Sorry.


That's my point: no Human being has ever willingly chosen to wear a religious sign. It's a myth.

Nora_Leonard wrote:Please note that I'm referring to the hijab, the headscarf, and not the full body covering niqab/burka.


That's duly noted. And of course, I have far less issues with the hijab than with the others (for reasons that, I assume, are obvious).

Those two are interesting too, though. If I were to object to women wearing it, I wouldn't even invoke sexism. It's simply illegal for anyone in my country to walk the streets with their face covered. In public places, our faces must be seen (so police officers can spot criminals, for instance). The burka is of course the most extreme example. Still, in my country, although it's illegal... I walk by women in burka almost everyday.

That's what worries me: some Muslim think it's all right to behave outside of the law... and we are sending them the message that it is. We cannot live in a society where some rules don't apply to certain people. It's not a democracy anymore. It's not even a society... and it's certainly not a place I want to live in.

Now back to the hijab:

Even if I agreed with you, that women chose freely to wear it (or not), that wouldn't be an argument either. If I told you: "I love it when my husband beats the living shit out of me with a belt"... it wouldn't make spouse beating all right. It would still be illegal. And my husband should still go to jail, should the police hear me say that.

Just because women agree to sexism doesn't make it any less sexist.
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Re: Wearing a Hijab to class

#42  Postby Aern Rakesh » Mar 12, 2010 10:34 am

Melhael wrote:
This may look like a choice to them. Indeed it sometimes is, incidentally. But if sociology has taught me anything, it's that none of what we do/think/wear is entirely up to us.


No, not entirely. I agree. But we do have elements of choice---although obviously some of us have more elements of choice than others. And looking at a line-up, say, of Muslim women of all ages and ethnicities, I suspect it would be hard to say which ones had chosen to wear the hijab. Looks can be very deceiving.

Melhael wrote:
Even if I agreed with you, that women chose freely to wear it (or not), that wouldn't be an argument either. If I told you: "I love it when my husband beats the living shit out of me with a belt"... it wouldn't make spouse beating all right. It would still be illegal. And my husband should still go to jail, should the police hear me say that.

Just because women agree to sexism doesn't make it any less sexist.


I think you are on slightly dodgy ground when you compare the rights and wrongs of a religious injunction that women should wear the hijab with the rights and wrongs of wife beating. Muslim men are also under an injunction to dress modestly and many wear a taqiyah or prayer cap.

Whenever I've come across a woman who has been the victim of abuse, she is invariably cowed and defeated looking, or at the very least, if she's heavily in denial, comes across as vulnerable and deluded. Whereas I've come across many Muslim women wearing the hijab that look like vibrant, healthy individuals. Melhael, I think I would be on your side in this argument if this weren't the case!

Melhael wrote: no Human being has ever willingly chosen to wear a religious sign. It's a myth.
Huh?? That's a pretty bizarre blanket statement. I for one have two star tattoos that are signs of what I experience as my spirituality. Nobody ever suggested I get them, and I still value them and believe that they speak about something that is fundamental to my nature. My choice entirely.
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Re: Wearing a Hijab to class

#43  Postby HomerJay » Mar 12, 2010 10:50 am

Nora_Leonard wrote:Whatever. You are now trying to make it seem like I don't believe in treating people equally just because I think the wearing of the hijab is not going to lead to the downfall of the school system. Well I believe I am working for a fair and free society, but perhaps not in a way that pleases you. We'll just have to agree to differ.


It is the 'requirement of religion' that suggests you're not being equitable and especially the idea that the state should provide spaces for religious purposes (prayer rooms at ramadan).

If you have seen the EHRC current draft guidance for the equality bill you'd possibly see what a can of worms this is opening.

We currently have a situation where it is up to individual schools and frequently individual heads to decide uniform policy, some schools have been subject to legal action and some heads have resigned, faced sacking, been subject to extraordinary stress caused by religions forcing their way into the secular spaces created in schools.

A local state primary school to us was subject to an attempted take over by the muslim community on the basis that once the percentage of muslim pupils had reached 55%, the school should become a 'muslim' school. A local imam got himself on the board of governors and made no secret of the fact that he wanted the (female) head removed. She endured his attacks for two years (accusations of racism etc) until the LEA disbanded the governors and took over control. Luckily she was able to survive this, although she had time off with stress, and her subsequent career doesn't seem to have suffered.

If we defer to these 'requirement of religion' whether uniform, diet, gender separation etc then we shall be unable to support schools and teachers who face these trials.

Lowering the expectations of the religious communities can only be a good thing, whereas you seem to be intent on raising them?

BTW in polls prior to the french veil ban some 40% of french muslim women were said to be in favour of the ban, no doubt seeking a safety valve and enjoying the though of an unpressured few hours in a secular environment.
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Re: Wearing a Hijab to class

#44  Postby Aern Rakesh » Mar 12, 2010 11:17 am

HomerJay wrote:
Nora_Leonard wrote:Whatever. You are now trying to make it seem like I don't believe in treating people equally just because I think the wearing of the hijab is not going to lead to the downfall of the school system. Well I believe I am working for a fair and free society, but perhaps not in a way that pleases you. We'll just have to agree to differ.


It is the 'requirement of religion' that suggests you're not being equitable and especially the idea that the state should provide spaces for religious purposes (prayer rooms at ramadan).


Purely a practical consideration in a borough where 25% of the school population is Muslim.

Parents have the right by law to remove their children from school for religious observance. School breaks are already fitted round the observance of Christian festivals. It makes sense to provide a quiet space or room for pupils to pray during Ramadan rather than having their parents come and pick them up and take them to the mosque---and very likely not bring them back again.

HomerJay wrote:A local state primary school to us was subject to an attempted take over by the muslim community on the basis that once the percentage of muslim pupils had reached 55%, the school should become a 'muslim' school. A local imam got himself on the board of governors and made no secret of the fact that he wanted the (female) head removed. She endured his attacks for two years (accusations of racism etc) until the LEA disbanded the governors and took over control. Luckily she was able to survive this, although she had time off with stress, and her subsequent career doesn't seem to have suffered.


Well this is just wrong. But if you think that similar situations (i.e.severe ructions between governors and headteachers) don't happen in the absence of religious complications well, you'd be wrong as well.

HomerJay wrote:BTW in polls prior to the french veil ban some 40% of french muslim women were said to be in favour of the ban, no doubt seeking a safety valve and enjoying the though of an unpressured few hours in a secular environment.


No doubt. That still leaves 60% of French Muslim women who were against the ban. I'm just saying...
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Re: Wearing a Hijab to class

#45  Postby Melhael » Mar 12, 2010 11:35 am

Nora_Leonard wrote:No, not entirely. I agree. But we do have elements of choice---although obviously some of us have more elements of choice than others. (...)


Of course. I can't disagree with this. Generally speaking, I'd say the more educated the person, the freer the choice. But still, to free ourselves we first have to be enslaved (so to speak). So even in freedom we are determined by what we have rejected.

It's a bit like punks: they define themselves in opposition to regular society. That makes them, in a sense, extremely predictable and dependent on what they set out to reject.

Now as far as the hijab is concerned, I think no one will deny that it is a religious symbol. As such, it can hardly be regarded as a personal choice: at best, it's a personal choice to conform. What worries me is what these women conform to—much more than why (which is more a matter of individual particularities, as you wrote).

Nora_Leonard wrote:I think you are on slightly dodgy ground when you compare the rights and wrongs of a religious injunction that women should wear the hijab with the rights and wrongs of wife beating. Muslim men are also under an injunction to dress modestly and many wear a taqiyah or prayer cap.


Sorry if I sounded like both were on the same level of violence. Of course, they aren't and I didn't want to imply that. My problem with the hijab is not just that it is a female-only symbol. There are other things that bother me about it. It eats away at something I greatly value: identity. It hides. I find the idea that women have something to hide repulsive. My society, the society I love and value, holds individuality as one of its prime values, along with equality. The hijab goes against that.

Moreover, it's insulting to me as a man (and even more as a gay man). I am not a chimpanzee that humps anything not wearing a hijab. Women do not have to be hidden away from men to avoid arousing their desire. Men aren't apes. We can control themselves. Besides, some of us have no sexual desire for women. Thus, the hijab is insulting to us too.

Nora_Leonard wrote:Whenever I've come across a woman who has been the victim of abuse, she is invariably cowed and defeated looking, or at the very least, if she's heavily in denial, comes across as vulnerable and deluded. Whereas I've come across many Muslim women wearing the hijab that look like vibrant, healthy individuals. Melhael, I think I would be on your side in this argument if this weren't the case!


Again, I can't disagree. But that's not relevant when it comes to making decisions about the hijab. Laws are not about individual anecdotal life stories. Laws are general principals. Equality is one of our most precious values. It's even more precious than our laws, or our constitutions, because sometimes our written laws fail to uphold it—and we have to amend them. It's our guiding principle. Every decision we make must be made in accordance with it.

Moreover our society comes from decades if not centuries of struggle to gain women rights. The mere sight of a hijab brings terrible flashbacks into my mind. I refuse to forget the lives and deaths of those women who fought in the past, just for the sake of moral / cultural relativism. We have to draw a line. We have to safeguard equality.

Besides, when I look at the people who are most pissed off when we say we want the hijab banned (at least from our schools) I see no reason to grant them their wish. They are a bunch angry mean men. And they are scared too.

Nora_Leonard wrote:Huh?? That's a pretty bizarre blanket statement. I for one have two star tattoos that are signs of what I experience as my spirituality. Nobody ever suggested I get them, and I still value them and believe that they speak about something that is fundamental to my nature. My choice entirely.


Just because it feels like a choice doesn't mean it is. You mention stars and spirituality. Why stars? Because you think they are pretty? Well, mice, kittens and flowers are pretty too. But you still chose two stars. Don't tell me that this choice wasn't culturally biased. And I suspect it's more profound than just "it's pretty". It's profound because it means something to you, in a certain frame of reference that you share with others.

And it's perfectly all right. We can't extract ourselves from our culture. It's part of who we are. I'm sure your tattoo is not just a product of your cultural background and that you put a lot of yourself, of your personality in it. I'm not denying that. But your unique self, like mine and anybody else's, is a product of one (or more) culture. It's a unique expression of a common reality.

We can outgrow our background, though. To a certain point, at least. Beyond that point, it would be counter-productive, I suppose: we wouldn't have any common ground with anyone anymore. And that's a requirement for communication and social interactions.
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Re: Wearing a Hijab to class

#46  Postby Melhael » Mar 12, 2010 11:43 am

Nora_Leonard wrote:School breaks are already fitted round the observance of Christian festivals.


Just for the record: I find that despicable too. Christianity is the concern of a large part of the population... but not all. I would love to see those holidays removed from the official calendar and replaced by celebrations that concern everybody: a day for women's right, and one for every social advances we have gained other the centuries (plus some significant historical events, like the victory over nazism, etc.).

Schools should be places where we learn science, arts, exercise our bodies and learn how to become responsible citizens, able to think for ourselves... not obedient subjects popes or imams or whoever. And both boys and girls should take part in those activities as equals (and I mean sports too).

Schools should make us equal and free.

Nora_Leonard wrote:No doubt. That still leaves 60% of French Muslim women who were against the ban. I'm just saying...


I tend to care more about the 40% who need our help and protection. ;)
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Re: Wearing a Hijab to class

#47  Postby Aern Rakesh » Mar 12, 2010 12:09 pm

Melhael wrote:
Nora_Leonard wrote:No, not entirely. I agree. But we do have elements of choice---although obviously some of us have more elements of choice than others. (...)


Of course. I can't disagree with this. Generally speaking, I'd say the more educated the person, the freer the choice. But still, to free ourselves we first have to be enslaved (so to speak). So even in freedom we are determined by what we have rejected.

It's a bit like punks: they define themselves in opposition to regular society. That makes them, in a sense, extremely predictable and dependent on what they set out to reject.


Yes, I can see this.

Melhael wrote:Now as far as the hijab is concerned, I think no one will deny that it is a religious symbol. As such, it can hardly be regarded as a personal choice: at best, it's a personal choice to conform. What worries me is what these women conform to—much more than why (which is more a matter of individual particularities, as you wrote).


I have a Muslim friend here at work who wears the full beard and would probably define himself as religious. We talk a lot and he is one of my favourite people here. He told me once that his mother was a feminist, and when his two sisters decided to start wearing the hijab he caught a lot of flak from her because she was saying he had influenced them. He says he had nothing to do with it, and I believe him. Of course that is anecdotal and probably not relevant, but it is relevant to me.

Melhael wrote: My problem with the hijab is not just that it is a female-only symbol. There are other things that bother me about it. It eats away at something I greatly value: identity. It hides. I find the idea that women have something to hide repulsive. My society, the society I love and value, holds individuality as one of its prime values, along with equality. The hijab goes against that.


I assume here you are talking about the full hijab/burqa? Because the only thing the scarf seems to hide to me is the hair.

Melhael wrote: Moreover, it's insulting to me as a man (and even more as a gay man). I am not a chimpanzee that humps anything not wearing a hijab. Women do not have to be hidden away from men to avoid arousing their desire. Men aren't apes. We can control themselves. Besides, some of us have no sexual desire for women. Thus, the hijab is insulting to us too.


Then I suspect you are taking it personally, and I mean that in the nicest possible way. :smile: Whereas my predominant association to the hijab is the endless arguments I've had on the old forum with men who still, regardless of how you spin it, want to tell women what to do! When I see or meet someone wearing a hijab I see a woman going about her business. Like the teacher I observed on Wednesday. What struck me wasn't that she was wearing a hijab but rather that she'd come up with such a creative activity for the class to do. I felt absolutely no desire to suggest to her that she might want to give it up.

Whereas I was totally creeped out the other day when I saw a woman on our floor wearing the full black deal, including niqab and black gloves. She was clearly a young woman and I just found this very creepy.

Melhael wrote: Laws are not about individual anecdotal life stories. Laws are general principals. Equality is one of our most precious values. It's even more precious than our laws, or our constitutions, because sometimes our written laws fail to uphold it—and we have to amend them. It's our guiding principle. Every decision we make must be made in accordance with it.


I agree with this. And therefore I'd make the law a matter of choice. If you are forbidding women the right to wear the hijab you are taking away that choice.

Melhael wrote: The mere sight of a hijab brings terrible flashbacks into my mind. I refuse to forget the lives and deaths of those women who fought in the past, just for the sake of moral / cultural relativism. We have to draw a line. We have to safeguard equality.
:hugs: The hijab doesn't do this for me, but acts of racism and homophobia do! Just saying...

Melhael wrote:
Nora_Leonard wrote:Huh?? That's a pretty bizarre blanket statement. I for one have two star tattoos that are signs of what I experience as my spirituality. Nobody ever suggested I get them, and I still value them and believe that they speak about something that is fundamental to my nature. My choice entirely.


Just because it feels like a choice doesn't mean it is. You mention stars and spirituality. Why stars? Because you think they are pretty? Well, mice, kittens and flowers are pretty too. But you still chose two stars. Don't tell me that this choice wasn't culturally biased. And I suspect it's more profound than just "it's pretty". It's profound because it means something to you, in a certain frame of reference that you share with others.

And it's perfectly all right. We can't extract ourselves from our culture. It's part of who we are. I'm sure your tattoo is not just a product of your cultural background and that you put a lot of yourself, of your personality in it. I'm not denying that. But your unique self, like mine and anybody else's, is a product of one (or more) culture. It's a unique expression of a common reality.

We can outgrow our background, though. To a certain point, at least. Beyond that point, it would be counter-productive, I suppose: we wouldn't have any common ground with anyone anymore. And that's a requirement for communication and social interactions.


Not entirely sure what to say to this. I agree that I've been influenced by my culture, my past, even my Christian upbringing. You are also undoubtedly right in assuming I chose the star to make a statement that might be understood by others---for instance I didn't choose a skull! But it was still my bloody choice to get a tattoo. No-one suggested it to me, I wanted to do something to mark things I've been through over several decades. It was an important rite of passage for me personally.
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Re: Wearing a Hijab to class

#48  Postby Melhael » Mar 12, 2010 12:28 pm

Nora_Leonard wrote:I assume here you are talking about the full hijab/burqa? Because the only thing the scarf seems to hide to me is the hair.


Yes, I'm very worried when conscious choice is made to suppress the hair. It's part of a person's face, their identity. Maybe it's not the case in every culture but it's the case in ours. It's an expression of self. Taking that away from someone is henceforth perceive as a violent act.

Nora_Leonard wrote:I agree with this. And therefore I'd make the law a matter of choice. If you are forbidding women the right to wear the hijab you are taking away that choice.


The law is a matter of public choices... not individual ones. Society is entitled to taking away choices it finds unacceptable. There's nothing wrong with that. It's what defines society. Otherwise, we'd be living in communities. This is not the way we have chosen to do things.

Nora_Leonard wrote:Not entirely sure what to say to this. I agree that I've been influenced by my culture, my past, even my Christian upbringing. You are also undoubtedly right in assuming I chose the star to make a statement that might be understood by others---for instance I didn't choose a skull! But it was still my bloody choice to get a tattoo. No-one suggested it to me, I wanted to do something to mark things I've been through over several decades. It was an important rite of passage for me personally.


I completely understand. I've been meaning to get a tattoo myself for a while. I'd love it to represent something about my spirituality too. And as I'm following a Druidic path, I'd want it to be both personal and to speak to others on the same path. Individualism and being part of a community aren't mutually exclusive at all.

The difference with the hijab is that no one ever claimed that male Druids had to get a tattoo of their liking. And male Druids have never been oppressed by female Druids (that I know of ;)).
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Re: Wearing a Hijab to class

#49  Postby Aern Rakesh » Mar 12, 2010 1:01 pm

Melhael wrote:

Nora_Leonard wrote:Not entirely sure what to say to this. I agree that I've been influenced by my culture, my past, even my Christian upbringing. You are also undoubtedly right in assuming I chose the star to make a statement that might be understood by others---for instance I didn't choose a skull! But it was still my bloody choice to get a tattoo. No-one suggested it to me, I wanted to do something to mark things I've been through over several decades. It was an important rite of passage for me personally.


I completely understand. I've been meaning to get a tattoo myself for a while. I'd love it to represent something about my spirituality too. And as I'm following a Druidic path, I'd want it to be both personal and to speak to others on the same path. Individualism and being part of a community aren't mutually exclusive at all.


I found it an intensely moving experience. I've got one star just above my right wrist and one above my heart. So many young women have seen the star on my arm and asked if it hurt. I always tell them it hurt just the right amount.

My family was aghast. However I have since discovered a literally long-lost cousin that has wonderful tattoos and she and I forged a bond right away.

The star isn't just a general spiritual symbol for me either. For years I've been writing two books where the image of the star is a pivotal image. In the second book, there is a whole group of people who wear the star tattoo. I had breast cancer a few years ago and had to have some tiny marker tattoos for the radiotherapy and when I was getting those I thought "You know what? I'm finally going to do it, do what I've got my characters doing."

One of my sisters told me not to tell her daughters. Well, that didn't stop them. This sister had her whole house demolished around her and her family in hurricane Hugo. They survived in the basement, along with another family whose house had been destroyed and who had crawled along the road to my sister's. A few years ago they all met up in Las Vegas and decided to get a 'hurricane' tattoo to mark the finally letting go of that trauma. So now my entire sister's family and this other family have tattoos.

Sorry for the derail, but I think it is relevant to the discussion we're having, or rather at least the one you and I are having. ;)

Melhael wrote:The difference with the hijab is that no one ever claimed that male Druids had to get a tattoo of their liking. And male Druids have never been oppressed by female Druids (that I know of ;)).


Give them time! :cheers:
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Re: Wearing a Hijab to class

#50  Postby Melhael » Mar 12, 2010 1:20 pm

Nora_Leonard wrote:I thought "You know what? I'm finally going to do it, do what I've got my characters doing."


Very moving story, thanks for sharing! The idea of mirroring aspects of your characters has a certain poetry to it: it's an acknowledgement of how fiction—even the fiction we produce ourselves—can define us. We put a lot of emphasis on how we affect the fiction we produce, but we are in turn changed by it.

Nora_Leonard wrote:
Melhael wrote:The difference with the hijab is that no one ever claimed that male Druids had to get a tattoo of their liking. And male Druids have never been oppressed by female Druids (that I know of ;)).


Give them time! :cheers:


I have no idea whether that's on the female Druid agenda. We'd have to ask them. :)
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Re: Wearing a Hijab to class

#51  Postby Aern Rakesh » Mar 12, 2010 1:25 pm

Melhael wrote:
Nora_Leonard wrote:I thought "You know what? I'm finally going to do it, do what I've got my characters doing."


Very moving story, thanks for sharing! The idea of mirroring aspects of your characters has a certain poetry to it: it's an acknowledgement of how fiction—even the fiction we produce ourselves—can define us. We put a lot of emphasis on how we affect the fiction we produce, but we are in turn changed by it.


I'd totally agree. In fact I've had to write certain things before I could live them in my so-called real life. One of my books is an epic, spanning several different 'times'. A few years ago I stopped working on it while I was deeply involved in developing my work in religious education. When I went back to it I was totally flabbergasted to discover I'd gone from living the life of my main character in the 'present' section to living the life of one of the characters in the future.
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Re: Wearing a Hijab to class

#52  Postby Ciarin » Mar 12, 2010 6:32 pm

Melhael wrote:
You cannot say, on the one hand: "Let's do this wonderful thing called 'equality'!' And on the other hand: "Oh, but a minority over there hates equality and we love everybody, so let's forget about the 'equality' stuff and everyone will be fine."

Because it doesn't work like that. When we act like that, even more people get hurt. And we become accomplices.


If it's so equal why isn't everyone in the country barred from wearing hats?
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Re: Wearing a Hijab to class

#53  Postby Rollerlocked » Mar 12, 2010 7:54 pm

Ciarin wrote:
Melhael wrote:
You cannot say, on the one hand: "Let's do this wonderful thing called 'equality'!' And on the other hand: "Oh, but a minority over there hates equality and we love everybody, so let's forget about the 'equality' stuff and everyone will be fine."

Because it doesn't work like that. When we act like that, even more people get hurt. And we become accomplices.


If it's so equal why isn't everyone in the country barred from wearing hats?

On the other hand, if everyone is barred from wearing hats, should special exceptions be made for those who believe their invisible friend wants them to wear a hat?
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Re: Wearing a Hijab to class

#54  Postby xsmooth_criminalx » Mar 12, 2010 9:41 pm

Ciarin wrote:
xsmooth_criminalx wrote:
Ciarin wrote:
DavidNewman wrote:Not wearing headgear in schools is also a security procedure. It is alot harder to hide a knife in your hair than it is to hide one in your hat.

Just food for thought. It's not always about etiquette.



if they're worried about knives hidden under a hat, or in hair, I'm sure the metal detector would pick it up.


Some schools, like the one I went to, don't have metal detectors...

Also, to put my two cents in, the hijabs can be worn the day I'm allowed to wear my fedora to school. Otherwise, it's not fair.


If they're so worried about weapons, enough to ban hats because of them, then they'd have a metal detector. I suspect the whole "there might be weapons on your head" argument is a farce.


Me too, mainly because they have "hat day" at our school. You have to pay to wear a hat, though. So it's more like "give us your money so you can wear a hat" day. I reckon security isn't a problem as long as they're getting money from us! :lol:
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Re: Wearing a Hijab to class

#55  Postby Ciarin » Mar 13, 2010 12:29 am

Rollerlocked wrote:
Ciarin wrote:
Melhael wrote:
You cannot say, on the one hand: "Let's do this wonderful thing called 'equality'!' And on the other hand: "Oh, but a minority over there hates equality and we love everybody, so let's forget about the 'equality' stuff and everyone will be fine."

Because it doesn't work like that. When we act like that, even more people get hurt. And we become accomplices.


If it's so equal why isn't everyone in the country barred from wearing hats?

On the other hand, if everyone is barred from wearing hats, should special exceptions be made for those who believe their invisible friend wants them to wear a hat?


Who is claiming their invisible friend wants them to wear a hat?
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Re: Wearing a Hijab to class

#56  Postby xsmooth_criminalx » Mar 13, 2010 12:35 am

Ciarin wrote:

Who is claiming their invisible friend wants them to wear a hat?


Image

Image

and others...
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Re: Wearing a Hijab to class

#57  Postby Ciarin » Mar 13, 2010 1:22 am

None of those photos tell me who is saying an invisible friend wants them to wear a hat. Try again.
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Re: Wearing a Hijab to class

#58  Postby xsmooth_criminalx » Mar 13, 2010 1:37 am

Ciarin wrote:None of those photos tell me who is saying an invisible friend wants them to wear a hat. Try again.


Well, what the guy who said that was trying to say is that things like hijabs are encouraged by the respective religion and by what they believe to be "god". So the invisible friend, god, is "wanting" them to wear a hat since the people who want to wear these things to school cite religious faith as their reason for doing so.

Thus, god is the invisible friend. I hope that's clear enough.
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Re: Wearing a Hijab to class

#59  Postby Ciarin » Mar 13, 2010 1:49 am

xsmooth_criminalx wrote:
Ciarin wrote:None of those photos tell me who is saying an invisible friend wants them to wear a hat. Try again.


Well, what the guy who said that was trying to say is that things like hijabs are encouraged by the respective religion and by what they believe to be "god". So the invisible friend, god, is "wanting" them to wear a hat since the people who want to wear these things to school cite religious faith as their reason for doing so.

Thus, god is the invisible friend. I hope that's clear enough.


Isn't it more of a cultural thing though? I know muslims, jews, and christians who wear nothing on their head.

The whole "invisible friend" thing is stupid by the way. A god isn't an invisible friend, the only people who characterize a god that way are atheists. And "religious reasons" doesn't automatically mean "a god told me to wear this on my head". some religions don't even have a god.
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Re: Wearing a Hijab to class

#60  Postby Rollerlocked » Mar 13, 2010 2:34 am

No reason for wearing headgear should be privileged over any others. Those with religious or cultural reasons for putting something on their head should not be allowed to do so in any situation where the person who wants to wear a cap for no reason other than expressing loyalty to the Pittsburgh Steelers or Chevrolet would not. One law. One rule. Equal justice. No exception for those adhering to nonsense-based belief systems - or for any other reason.
Well, perhaps one exception. Medical necessity. Nothing else.

This is not to say, however, that people should generally be prohibited from putting things on their heads.

And the "invisible friend" thing isn't intended to be literal. It's intended as an expression of contempt for theism.
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