Would you instruct your kids to respond with violence

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Would you instruct your kids to respond with violence to bullying?

Yes
11
55%
No
8
40%
No Eye Deer
1
5%
 
Total votes : 20

Re: Would you instruct your kids to respond with violence

#61  Postby Mike_L » Apr 28, 2017 12:00 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Mike_L wrote:"Talk to them" proceeds from the assumption that the bully possesses some kind of decency to which the victim can appeal. That, in turn, probably rests on the notion that the bully's actions are symptomatic of his own low self-esteem. And that, sadly, is crap.

As are ludicrous generalisations.

Yeah, tell yourself that. Some bullies just want to be loved. :lol:

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Mike_L wrote:
Research shows that, in fact, the majority of bullies have very high self-esteem, high social status, high sexual activity and low rates of depression.

Not really a rigourous nor representative study:
The new study surveyed 135 teenagers from a Vancouver high school using a standard questionnaire. Questions included things like how often individuals were hit or shoved. Researchers then categorized the students into four groups: bully, bystander, victim, or victim-bully.

Wong's research confirms the findings of an earlier (2007) study...
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-8624.2007.01089.x/abstract

Mike_L wrote:

In all likelihood, the majority of bullies are narcissists and/or sociopaths.


By common definition there is a good chance they'd be sociopaths. Any evidence that they are narcissists?

I didn't assert that they necessarily are. I said "and/or".
That said, narcissism and sociopathy do sometimes go hand-in-hand.

Mike_L wrote:

They advance their own social standing at the expense of others.


Citation?

It's included in the originally cited article...
“Humans tend to try to establish a rank hierarchy,” Jennifer Wong, a criminology professor who led the study, told the Post. “When you’re in high school, it’s a very limited arena in which you can establish your rank, and climbing the social ladder to be on top is one of the main ways … Bullying is a tool you can use to get there.”


Mike_L wrote:
There is no decency or no conscience to which the victim or his sympathisers can appeal.


Again, you're making gross generalisations here.

Have you hugged a bully today?
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Re: Would you instruct your kids to respond with violence

#62  Postby archibald » Apr 28, 2017 12:07 pm

Image

I've hugged my wife. I'm not sure if that counts.
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Re: Would you instruct your kids to respond with violence

#63  Postby Mike_L » Apr 28, 2017 12:13 pm

archibald wrote:Image

I've hugged my wife. I'm not sure if that counts.

Don't turn your back after giving the hug. As you walk away, keep your (downcast) eyes on the bully, but avoid direct (challenging) eye contact.
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Re: Would you instruct your kids to respond with violence

#64  Postby Macdoc » Apr 28, 2017 12:21 pm

You been hanging with the baboons too much Mike ;)
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Re: Would you instruct your kids to respond with violence

#65  Postby Mike_L » Apr 28, 2017 12:24 pm

Macdoc wrote:You been hanging with the baboons too much Mike ;)

I encounter them every time I go foraging in the valley. Talking doesn't accomplish anything. I had to fight them to get my loincloth back. :grin:
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Re: Would you instruct your kids to respond with violence

#66  Postby Scot Dutchy » Apr 28, 2017 12:25 pm

How is Jane doing these days. :lol:
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Re: Would you instruct your kids to respond with violence

#67  Postby Mike_L » Apr 28, 2017 12:28 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:How is Jane doing these days. :lol:

Eloped with an antelope. :nono:
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Re: Would you instruct your kids to respond with violence

#68  Postby Scot Dutchy » Apr 28, 2017 12:35 pm

Oh sorry. Must be a bit wrinkled by now.
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Re: Would you instruct your kids to respond with violence

#69  Postby Weaver » Apr 28, 2017 12:40 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Fallible wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Fallible wrote:

Yeah, just collude with your colleagues to shut yourself in a police cell alone with the guy and talk the living daylights out of him. Simples.


That was not clever and proves that violence is not the way.


It also proves that you're the last one anyone should be listening to regarding this matter.


I suppose you are? Like Weaver who was trained in violence. It does not prove anything. That incident was 40 years ago.

Yes, actually, I am someone you should listen to in this matter - because in addition to being trained in the application of violence, I was also trained in restraint in the use of violence, and became a subject matter expert trainer in the use of verbal and non-verbal negotiations specifically calculated to reduce or eliminate the use of violence.

Which you keep ignoring, I notice, in your drive to paint me as some sort of aggressive cretinous American intent on using violence first and foremost or some shit.
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Re: Would you instruct your kids to respond with violence

#70  Postby Mike_L » Apr 28, 2017 12:41 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:Oh sorry. Must be a bit wrinkled by now.

Gone are the days when she and Sheena would fight over me.
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Re: Would you instruct your kids to respond with violence

#71  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Apr 28, 2017 12:47 pm

Mike_L wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Mike_L wrote:"Talk to them" proceeds from the assumption that the bully possesses some kind of decency to which the victim can appeal. That, in turn, probably rests on the notion that the bully's actions are symptomatic of his own low self-esteem. And that, sadly, is crap.

As are ludicrous generalisations.

Yeah, tell yourself that. Some bullies just want to be loved. :lol:

Besides this being an appeal to personal incredulity and ridicule fallacy, it's also a straw-man.
I never claimed they want to be loved.
Some bullies do however, bully, out of a need for attention.

Mike_L wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Mike_L wrote:
Research shows that, in fact, the majority of bullies have very high self-esteem, high social status, high sexual activity and low rates of depression.

Not really a rigourous nor representative study:
The new study surveyed 135 teenagers from a Vancouver high school using a standard questionnaire. Questions included things like how often individuals were hit or shoved. Researchers then categorized the students into four groups: bully, bystander, victim, or victim-bully.

Wong's research confirms the findings of an earlier (2007) study...
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-8624.2007.01089.x/abstract

Another limited study:
(N= 189; mean age = 11.1 years), antisocial behavior was aggression; in Study 2 (N= 407; mean age = 10.8 years) it was avoidance of the mother.


Mike_L wrote:
Mike_L wrote:
In all likelihood, the majority of bullies are narcissists and/or sociopaths.


By common definition there is a good chance they'd be sociopaths. Any evidence that they are narcissists?

I didn't assert that they necessarily are. I said "and/or".

And/or means they're either both, or just the on the thing, in this case narcissistic.


Mike_L wrote:That said, narcissism and sociopathy do sometimes go hand-in-hand.

That does nothing to demonstrate that the majority of bullies are likely to be narcissists.
In fact it's not weir that being a narcissist might make you a sociopath as you care mostly for yourself, rather than others.
The other way around is not that evident however.

Mike_L wrote:
Mike_L wrote:
They advance their own social standing at the expense of others.


Citation?

It's included in the originally cited article...
“Humans tend to try to establish a rank hierarchy,” Jennifer Wong, a criminology professor who led the study, told the Post. “When you’re in high school, it’s a very limited arena in which you can establish your rank, and climbing the social ladder to be on top is one of the main ways … Bullying is a tool you can use to get there.”

This would refute the assertion that bullies have a high self esteem. If one has high self esteem they would not be bothered with being popular.


Mike_L wrote:
Mike_L wrote:
There is no decency or no conscience to which the victim or his sympathisers can appeal.


Again, you're making gross generalisations here.

Have you hugged a bully today?

Do you always dodge points with non-sequitur questions?
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Would you instruct your kids to respond with violence

#72  Postby Scot Dutchy » Apr 28, 2017 1:10 pm

That is always America's policy Weaver hit first for no reason.
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Re: Would you instruct your kids to respond with violence

#73  Postby Keep It Real » Apr 28, 2017 1:13 pm

You seem really racist against Americans Scot Dutchy. Not cool.
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Re: Would you instruct your kids to respond with violence

#74  Postby Scot Dutchy » Apr 28, 2017 1:19 pm

Keep It Real wrote:You seem really racist against Americans Scot Dutchy. Not cool.


America is not a race. How am I racist?
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Re: Would you instruct your kids to respond with violence

#75  Postby Keep It Real » Apr 28, 2017 1:20 pm

You're targeting and stereotyping Weaver because he is American. That's racist.
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Re: Would you instruct your kids to respond with violence

#76  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Apr 28, 2017 1:24 pm

It's bigoted. Racism only pertains to race. Bigotry is irrational distaste of *anything* including nationality.
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Re: Would you instruct your kids to respond with violence

#77  Postby Mike_L » Apr 28, 2017 1:27 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Mike_L wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Mike_L wrote:"Talk to them" proceeds from the assumption that the bully possesses some kind of decency to which the victim can appeal. That, in turn, probably rests on the notion that the bully's actions are symptomatic of his own low self-esteem. And that, sadly, is crap.

As are ludicrous generalisations.

Yeah, tell yourself that. Some bullies just want to be loved. :lol:

Besides this being an appeal to personal incredulity and ridicule fallacy, it's also a straw-man.
I never claimed they want to be loved.
Some bullies do however, bully, out of a need for attention.

So narcissism then. Their "need" for attention outweighs the victim's need for safety from abuse.

“Humans tend to try to establish a rank hierarchy,” Jennifer Wong, a criminology professor who led the study, told the Post. “When you’re in high school, it’s a very limited arena in which you can establish your rank, and climbing the social ladder to be on top is one of the main ways … Bullying is a tool you can use to get there.”


This would refute the assertion that bullies have a high self esteem. If one has high self esteem they would not be bothered with being popular.

That logic probably applies perfectly well to a normal (empathetic) person, and less -- or not at all -- to a bullying sociopath. To such, the popularity among the peer group could merely be sought to affirm an already-high self-esteem.

Do you always dodge points with non-sequitur questions?

I refuse to be bullied with probing questions and trenchant points! :shifty:

But seriously...

I concede the point. You're right. I have indeed made generalisations.
Perhaps my judgement is, to a certain extent, clouded by my own experiences with bullies... which align perfectly with the observations made by Jennifer Wong in the cited article.
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Re: Would you instruct your kids to respond with violence

#78  Postby Scot Dutchy » Apr 28, 2017 1:30 pm

Rachel Bronwyn wrote:It's bigoted. Racism only pertains to race. Bigotry is irrational distaste of *anything* including nationality.


Plenty of bigots here then.
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Re: Would you instruct your kids to respond with violence

#79  Postby Keep It Real » Apr 28, 2017 1:38 pm

Rachel Bronwyn wrote:It's bigoted. Racism only pertains to race. Bigotry is irrational distaste of *anything* including nationality.


Well, whatever it is, it's making Scot Dutchy's conscientious objection to violence seem, er, tainted.

A great friend of the family had a brother who was a conscientious objector during WW2. He committed suicide by jumping from a train. I've always mourned his death and held him to be something of a hero. The reason I didn't fight back against the bullies at school was cowardice however, not conscientious objection. They always came at me in a gang of at least three - some of the strongest/biggest boys in the year, and I didn't want to encourage a violent situation. I had also been raised to believe that violence is wrong, so was inept in it. Perhaps if I'd had some instruction in standing up for myself I'd have left school with more than three GCSEs. I'm not a conscientious objector, although I do still respect it in a way, I would have fought the Nazis I reckon. Sometimes violence is required - life isn't perfect. I basically agree with Weaver in this thread, and wish I hadn't been raised as a conscientious objector.
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Re: Would you instruct your kids to respond with violence

#80  Postby archibald » Apr 28, 2017 2:59 pm

I saw an interesting documentary recently about 'The Last WW1 Tommy', can't remember his name but he was the last surviving British soldier and had apparently been the subject of many a photo-opportunity on the part of politicians seeking publicity by vicarious association with 'one of our brave lads'. Anyhows, shortly before he died, I think, this guy admitted that he'd never even shot at anyone and always either didn't fire his gun or aimed to miss, because of the conscientious and pacifist objections he held but was fearful of admitting to his superiors. I thought it was (in some ways at least) both clever and brave, and quite ironic given his 'last hero' status.
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