Early humans hunted the largest available animals to extinct

I don't buy it

The accumulation of small heritable changes within populations over time.

Moderators: kiore, Blip, The_Metatron

Early humans hunted the largest available animals to extinct

#1  Postby Macdoc » Dec 21, 2021 6:43 pm

A groundbreaking study by researchers from Tel Aviv University tracks the development of early humans' hunting practices over the last 1.5 million years—as reflected in the animals they hunted and consumed. The researchers claim that at any given time early humans preferred to hunt the largest animals available in their surroundings, which provided the greatest quantities of food in return for a unit of effort.

In this way, according to the researchers, early humans repeatedly overhunted large animals to extinction (or until they became so rare that they disappeared from the archaeological record) and then went on to the next in size—improving their hunting technologies to meet the new challenge. The researchers also claim that about 10,000 years ago, when animals larger than deer became extinct, humans began to domesticate plants and animals to supply their needs, and this may be why the agricultural revolution began in the Levant at precisely that time.


https://phys.org/news/2021-12-early-hum ... ction.html

Image

Australia was not human occupied during the period they discuss and nearly all the mega-fauna went extinct before humans arrived 60,000 years ago.

How they jump to their conclusion on a narrow region they say is "representative" is beyond me.

Early humans were a vanishing small number against the number of animals on a big planet. Mammoths died out in Siberia only 3,700 years ago and that island extinction was certainly due to a changing climate.

Hell Elephants are not extinct ( yet ), moose are not, and bison all qualify.
There were 10's of thousands of indigenous in North America and millions of buffalo and they did not make a dent until modern weapons and industrial slaughter arrived.
What allowed humans into North America was climate change..correlation is not causation.

Sure humans hunt out an area but it's a huge planet.

Far and away the change in vegetation/nutrition impact reproduction and violent weather swings impact survival plus there were other predators out there...smileodon and direwolves.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smilodon

I think this is far from settled despite rather overdone claims.

The researchers also claim that about 10,000 years ago, when animals larger than deer became extinct,


this is flat out nonsense :coffee:
Travel photos > https://500px.com/macdoc/galleries
EO Wilson in On Human Nature wrote:
We are not compelled to believe in biological uniformity in order to affirm human freedom and dignity.
User avatar
Macdoc
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 17714
Age: 75
Male

Country: Canada/Australia
Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: Early humans hunted the largest available animals to extinct

#2  Postby Spearthrower » Dec 21, 2021 8:04 pm

It's late and my brain's closing down for the night, so forgive me if I don't address what you or they are saying perfectly, but my sense is the component that's missing here is a near universal law of carrying capacity. There are far more small animals than there are big animals as any given space of land simply cannot support as many large animals. For every mammoth in 1 square kilometre, there could be 20 or more deer.

Additional to this, large animals tend to have longer gestation times and take longer to reach sexual maturity.

So with these two components taken into consideration, humans wouldn't need to actively seek out large animals to have a more pronounced effect on their populations' survival - taking even a few could have a comparatively dramatic effect. The smaller animal populations might be able to maintain their population size even if they were taken in greater numbers, whereas the large animal populations could be wiped relatively easily even if only a small number were killed.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 32644
Age: 46
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: Early humans hunted the largest available animals to extinct

#3  Postby Macdoc » Dec 22, 2021 1:42 am

sure for a limited area.

Earth is big - and our populations have never been robust until near history.

Well, we've waxed. So we can wane. Let's just hope we wane gently. Because once in our history, the world-wide population of human beings skidded so sharply we were down to roughly a thousand reproductive adults. One study says we hit as low as 40.

Forty? Come on, that can't be right. Well, the technical term is 40 "breeding pairs" (children not included). More likely there was a drastic dip and then 5,000 to 10,000 bedraggled Homo sapiens struggled together in pitiful little clumps hunting and gathering for thousands of years until, in the late Stone Age, we humans began to recover. But for a time there, says science writer Sam Kean, "We damn near went extinct."

I'd never heard of this almost-blinking-out. That's because I'd never heard of Toba, the "supervolcano." It's not a myth. While details may vary, Toba happened.

https://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2 ... 70-000-b-c

Now what's more likely - humans or climate?
Australia is the perfect lab - we know when humans arrived and we know the extinnction rate of mega=fauna prior to that and after

Image

https://www.theguardian.com/science/202 ... queensland

There is also evidence uncovered in Greenland of a size large crater under the edge of the ice that may have caused the LIA.
I don't discount regional impacts of human predation but 10,000s of thousands of indigenous North Americans did not wipe out the big fauna in 20,000 years. Bisons roamed in millions, caribou and moose in tens of thousands, lots of grizzlies and polar bear and even mammoths were around.

We certainly are modern villians.....pre-history ....not so much in my view. :coffee:
Travel photos > https://500px.com/macdoc/galleries
EO Wilson in On Human Nature wrote:
We are not compelled to believe in biological uniformity in order to affirm human freedom and dignity.
User avatar
Macdoc
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 17714
Age: 75
Male

Country: Canada/Australia
Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: Early humans hunted the largest available animals to extinct

#4  Postby Spearthrower » Dec 22, 2021 5:49 am

Macdoc wrote:sure for a limited area.


For every limited area, which comes to include everything.


Macdoc wrote:Earth is big - and our populations have never been robust until near history.


Earth is big, but any species' range isn't necessarily so.



Macdoc wrote:
Now what's more likely - humans or climate?


In my opinion? I personally found through life that questions like this which are either/or tend to forget there's a middle answer which incorporates both of them.

This also happens to be the general position with respect to the history of human contact with other species; that humans pushed populations, which were already struggling from a changing climate, over the edge into extinction. It's a Death-by-a-thousand-cuts scenario. Humans changed the landscape, drastically lowering the carrying capacity for a given species, additionally making it harder for that species to find mates, and also hunted it in a manner that species had no time to adapt to having evolved for millions of years independently.



Macdoc wrote:Australia is the perfect lab - we know when humans arrived and we know the extinnction rate of mega=fauna prior to that and after


There can be no such 'perfect lab' as every case would be unique and dependent on factors specific to its locality. Another example you might not be considering is when humans change the landscape on which species survive, thereby indirectly contributing to their extinction. Humanity's arrival in India, for example, saw widespread controlled fire used to turn forest into grassland. Grassland is pretty good for large ungulates, but not so good for large fauna which relies on the produce of trees.


Macdoc wrote:
There is also evidence uncovered in Greenland of a size large crater under the edge of the ice that may have caused the LIA.
I don't discount regional impacts of human predation but 10,000s of thousands of indigenous North Americans did not wipe out the big fauna in 20,000 years. Bisons roamed in millions, caribou and moose in tens of thousands, lots of grizzlies and polar bear and even mammoths were around.


But one needn't be binary.

If climate changes caused megafauna populations to be susceptible to the arrival of a new and quite formidable hunter, then you can conceive of both of them as being causal: climate and human predation.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 32644
Age: 46
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: Early humans hunted the largest available animals to extinct

#5  Postby Macdoc » Dec 22, 2021 8:45 am

It's the wide ranging conclusions that I object to in the paper.

Good article here - covers the planet

GEOL 204 Dinosaurs, Early Humans, Ancestors & Evolution:
The Fossil Record of Vanished Worlds of the Prehistoric Past


https://www.geol.umd.edu/~tholtz/G204/l ... eisto.html

Notable is the lack of extinction in certain areas.

Roll Call of Doom
Africa: Essentially modern composition of the animal life in the Pleistocene (indeed, nearly modern in the Pliocene). So very little evidence for a Quaternary Period extinction among carnivores and herbivores from the continent of humanity's birth.

Indian Subcontinent: In work first published in 2020, the pattern for this region is somewhat similar to Africa. Many of the species present in the Pleistocene are still with us today. The extinction includes two proboscideans: the giant straight-tusked elephant Palaeoloxodon namadicus (possibly the largest land mammal of all time) and smaller Stegodon namadicus, an extinct species of the pygmy hippopotamus genus Hexaprotodon, and the local horse Equus namadicus (as well as regional extinction of the ostrich Struthio camelus and the pseudoextinction of the Indian aurochs Bos namadicus, ancestor of Indian zebu cattle).

East Asia, Southeast Asia, and Indonesia: Less well studied than many other regions, there were local mammoths and other proboscideans (such as species of Stegodon), rhinos, and deer which died out, as well as the giant orangutan relative Gigantopithecus and the tiny hobbit Homo floresiensis. (Indeed, on Flores Island there were giant storks, giant rats, giant lizards, and dwarf Stegodon: an odd community). Also, the "mystery" Denisovans and Maludong peoples disappear as well.


Australia is only ideal in the sense we know pretty much exactly when humans arrived, tho North and South America are also good petri dishes in that respect.

Asia and Africa there is no clear point of arrival and mega fauna existed throughout hominid history - several ice ages etc with Neanderthals back some 150,000 years and Denisovans who knows how long and indeed mega fauna still persist....tho who knows for how long now.

My main contention is that outside a few limited areas there were too few humans tho they may well have been a tipping point to certain climate stressed species. Humans mass hunted American bison for 14,000+ years without diminishing the herds numbering in millions.

In addition the author is tying it into the emergence of agriculture which may indeed coincide in the Levant but not elsewhere.

Africans and Indian subcontinent dwellers live with the threat of big cats and wild elephants even now....crocs and hippos and to a very fading degree rhinos.

The contention is too simple..."it's humans wut done it"......nah
Travel photos > https://500px.com/macdoc/galleries
EO Wilson in On Human Nature wrote:
We are not compelled to believe in biological uniformity in order to affirm human freedom and dignity.
User avatar
Macdoc
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 17714
Age: 75
Male

Country: Canada/Australia
Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: Early humans hunted the largest available animals to extinct

#6  Postby Hermit » Dec 22, 2021 9:01 am

The hypothesis that
...at any given time early humans preferred to hunt the largest animals available in their surroundings, which provided the greatest quantities of food in return for a unit of effort
is based on findings indicating that
...a continual decline in the size of game hunted by humans as their main food source—from giant elephants 1-1.5 million years ago down to gazelles 10,000 years ago.

Um, yeah. So, we have evidence of a continual decline in the size of game hunted by humans. Fair enough. Now, this question arises: How do we know whether the continual decline in the size of game hunted is chiefly due to large game being the preferred source of food rather than the gradual disappearance of large fauna being due to other environmental factors? The proffered evidence cannot say.
God is the mysterious veil under which we hide our ignorance of the cause. - Léo Errera


God created the universe
God just exists
User avatar
Hermit
 
Name: Cantankerous grump
Posts: 4927
Age: 69
Male

Print view this post

Re: Early humans hunted the largest available animals to extinct

#7  Postby Spearthrower » Dec 22, 2021 9:27 am

It's a debate that's been going on for at least 40 years, and like all such debates in a field, I tend to think that both extremes have good points which thereby makes neither extreme seem like a satisfying resolution.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 32644
Age: 46
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: Early humans hunted the largest available animals to extinct

#8  Postby Macdoc » Dec 22, 2021 2:33 pm

Exactly ...for both of you.
Very much correlation/causation puzzle.Certainly can see some of the slow moving mega like sloths being wiped out but a mammoth with stone spears vs bison or reindeer driven over a cliff :scratch:
Travel photos > https://500px.com/macdoc/galleries
EO Wilson in On Human Nature wrote:
We are not compelled to believe in biological uniformity in order to affirm human freedom and dignity.
User avatar
Macdoc
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 17714
Age: 75
Male

Country: Canada/Australia
Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: Early humans hunted the largest available animals to extinct

#9  Postby The_Piper » Dec 22, 2021 3:17 pm

If I had 9 lives I spend a couple of them being an anthropologist. :)
"There are two ways to view the stars; as they really are, and as we might wish them to be." - Carl Sagan
"If an argument lasts more than five minutes, both parties are wrong" unknown
Self Taken Pictures of Wildlife
User avatar
The_Piper
 
Name: Fletch F. Fletch
Posts: 29945
Age: 48
Male

Country: Chainsaw Country
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Early humans hunted the largest available animals to extinct

#10  Postby aufbahrung » Dec 22, 2021 7:38 pm

Human beings were side players - interglacial climate change wiped the megafauna out. They couldn't chill quick enough genetically for the rising temperatures. Humans came in and hunted the stragglers to the weather driven extinction, towards extinction, but it is hubris driven overplay to say their small population at the time achieved the death of the mammoth etc..
“Ne vous mêlez pas du pain”
User avatar
aufbahrung
 
Name: Your Real Name
Posts: 1579

Country: United Kingdom
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Early humans hunted the largest available animals to extinct

#11  Postby Spearthrower » Dec 22, 2021 8:41 pm

I'm really not sure what hubris has to do with anything here: no one who's looking at the data is coming to the conclusion that humans caused megafauna extinction because they're proud. They're coming to that conclusion based on the correspondence between the arrival of humans and the extinction of those species.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 32644
Age: 46
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: Early humans hunted the largest available animals to extinct

#12  Postby Spearthrower » Dec 23, 2021 8:01 am

Just as a FYI - here's the paper in question:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... via%3Dihub

Abstract

Multiple large-bodied species went extinct during the Pleistocene. Changing climates and/or human hunting are the main hypotheses used to explain these extinctions. We studied the causes of Pleistocene extinctions in the Southern Levant, and their subsequent effect on local hominin food spectra, by examining faunal remains in archaeological sites across the last 1.5 million years. We examined whether climate and climate changes, and/or human cultures, are associated with these declines. We recorded animal abundances published in the literature from 133 stratigraphic layers, across 58 Pleistocene and Early Holocene archaeological sites, in the Southern Levant. We used linear regressions and mixed models to assess the weighted mean mass of faunal assemblages through time and whether it was associated with temperature, paleorainfall, or paleoenvironment (C3 vs. C4 vegetation). We found that weighted mean body mass declined log-linearly through time. Mean hunted animal masses 10,500 years ago, were only 1.7% of those 1.5 million years ago. Neither body size at any period, nor size change from one layer to the next, were related to global temperature or to temperature changes. Throughout the Pleistocene, new human lineages hunted significantly smaller prey than the preceding ones. This suggests that humans extirpated megafauna throughout the Pleistocene, and when the largest species were depleted the next-largest were targeted. Technological advancements likely enabled subsequent human lineages to effectively hunt smaller prey replacing larger species that were hunted to extinction or until they became exceedingly rare.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 32644
Age: 46
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: Early humans hunted the largest available animals to extinct

#13  Postby Cito di Pense » Dec 23, 2021 8:32 am

Spearthrower wrote:Just as a FYI - here's the paper in question:


All I'm thinking is that it's a pity the gigantic millipedes died out, let alone failed to grow larger, still. Fine source of protein. Maybe then we'd have the cuddly mammoths and giant capybaras today, and smilodon could have survived on capybara, instead of us. As I say, extinction's too good for us.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
User avatar
Cito di Pense
 
Name: Al Forno, LLD,LDL,PPM
Posts: 30396
Age: 25
Male

Country: Nutbush City Limits
Ukraine (ua)
Print view this post

Re: Early humans hunted the largest available animals to extinct

#14  Postby The_Metatron » Dec 23, 2021 5:15 pm

Seems to me humanity has rarely, if ever, failed to consume all available resources. Why should the treatment of megafauna be any different?
I AM Skepdickus!

Check out Hack's blog, too. He writes good.
User avatar
The_Metatron
Moderator
 
Name: Jesse
Posts: 21791
Age: 60
Male

Country: United States
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Early humans hunted the largest available animals to extinct

#15  Postby Hermit » Dec 23, 2021 5:40 pm

The_Metatron wrote:Seems to me humanity has rarely, if ever, failed to consume all available resources. Why should the treatment of megafauna be any different?

There may have been an insufficient number of hominid stomachs around to achieve such a mammoth task a million years ago.

Image
God is the mysterious veil under which we hide our ignorance of the cause. - Léo Errera


God created the universe
God just exists
User avatar
Hermit
 
Name: Cantankerous grump
Posts: 4927
Age: 69
Male

Print view this post

Re: Early humans hunted the largest available animals to extinct

#16  Postby Spearthrower » Dec 23, 2021 6:13 pm

Hermit wrote:
The_Metatron wrote:Seems to me humanity has rarely, if ever, failed to consume all available resources. Why should the treatment of megafauna be any different?

There may have been an insufficient number of hominid stomachs around to achieve such a mammoth task a million years ago.

Image



But that relies on an assumption that humans were killing them for food. They may also have killed for materials, for prestige, for rites... and perhaps most significantly, unintentionally/indirectly through changing the landscape the animals were strongly adapted for.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 32644
Age: 46
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: Early humans hunted the largest available animals to extinct

#17  Postby Hermit » Dec 23, 2021 6:31 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
Hermit wrote:
The_Metatron wrote:Seems to me humanity has rarely, if ever, failed to consume all available resources. Why should the treatment of megafauna be any different?

There may have been an insufficient number of hominid stomachs around to achieve such a mammoth task a million years ago.

Image

But that relies on an assumption that humans were killing them for food. They may also have killed for materials, for prestige, for rites... and perhaps most significantly, unintentionally/indirectly through changing the landscape the animals were strongly adapted for.

That is a distinct possibility, but it is not part of the hypothesis created by the authors of the "groundbreaking study".
The researchers claim that at any given time early humans preferred to hunt the largest animals available in their surroundings, which provided the greatest quantities of food in return for a unit of effort.

In this way, according to the researchers, early humans repeatedly overhunted large animals to extinction...

Even if hominids hunted and killed large fauna for reasons other than as a food source I doubt there were enough of them to have "caused the mass extinction of large animals over the past hundreds of thousands of years".
God is the mysterious veil under which we hide our ignorance of the cause. - Léo Errera


God created the universe
God just exists
User avatar
Hermit
 
Name: Cantankerous grump
Posts: 4927
Age: 69
Male

Print view this post

Re: Early humans hunted the largest available animals to extinct

#18  Postby Spearthrower » Dec 23, 2021 7:03 pm

Hermit wrote:Even if hominids hunted and killed large fauna for reasons other than as a food source I doubt there were enough of them to have "caused the mass extinction of large animals over the past hundreds of thousands of years".


Ok, but on what grounds is your doubt based? Wouldn't you also need to know the number of individuals of those megafauna species to be able to surmise so?
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 32644
Age: 46
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: Early humans hunted the largest available animals to extinct

#19  Postby Hermit » Dec 23, 2021 7:24 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
Hermit wrote:Even if hominids hunted and killed large fauna for reasons other than as a food source I doubt there were enough of them to have "caused the mass extinction of large animals over the past hundreds of thousands of years".

Ok, but on what grounds is your doubt based? Wouldn't you also need to know the number of individuals of those megafauna species to be able to surmise so?

Well, the above graph estimates the global human population to be around 4 million 2200 years ago. I have no idea what the number of homo x might have been 10,000 or 100,000 years earlier, but my wild guess is it would have been substantially lower. I just doubt that the number would have been high enough to be capable of killing enough mammoths and other megafauna to cause the mass extinction even given hundreds of thousands of years to do it in.
God is the mysterious veil under which we hide our ignorance of the cause. - Léo Errera


God created the universe
God just exists
User avatar
Hermit
 
Name: Cantankerous grump
Posts: 4927
Age: 69
Male

Print view this post

Re: Early humans hunted the largest available animals to extinct

#20  Postby Spearthrower » Dec 23, 2021 8:12 pm

Hermit wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
Hermit wrote:Even if hominids hunted and killed large fauna for reasons other than as a food source I doubt there were enough of them to have "caused the mass extinction of large animals over the past hundreds of thousands of years".

Ok, but on what grounds is your doubt based? Wouldn't you also need to know the number of individuals of those megafauna species to be able to surmise so?

Well, the above graph estimates the global human population to be around 4 million 2200 years ago. I have no idea what the number of homo x might have been 10,000 or 100,000 years earlier, but my wild guess is it would have been substantially lower. I just doubt that the number would have been high enough to be capable of killing enough mammoths and other megafauna to cause the mass extinction even given hundreds of thousands of years to do it in.


What I am saying is to formulate such an estimate, you'd also need to know the number of individuals of a given megafauna species, because obviously if there were only 100 of them, it wouldn't be hard to imagine even a single industrious family driving them to extinction in 1 generation.

Basically, I am pointing back to my earlier note with regards to the relative numbers of individuals large animal species.

I do appreciate this is not in the study cited, but I think it's an important component for understanding here.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 32644
Age: 46
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Next

Return to Evolution & Natural Selection

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest

cron