Large Nostrils in certain ethnic groups

UtilityMonster · **#21** by **UtilityMonster** » Nov 11, 2011 7:53 pm

Why do Irish people have pug noses? Is it really because of Lamarckian evolution bar fights?

Ciwan · **#22** by **Ciwan** » Dec 01, 2011 9:43 am

Am I correct to conclude that Science has no answer to this question ... yet.

Spearthrower · **#23** by **Spearthrower** » Dec 02, 2011 4:09 am

Ciwan wrote:Am I correct to conclude that Science has no answer to this question ... yet.

Spearthrower wrote:It's to do with the shape of the nasal cavity and the orientation of the nasal bone and cartilage.

Ciwan · **#24** by **Ciwan** » Dec 02, 2011 9:09 am

Hehe I get that bit SpearThrower, but then the question becomes why is that particular shape of the nasal cavity and that particular orientation of the nasal bone advantageous ?

Spearthrower · **#25** by **Spearthrower** » Dec 02, 2011 9:10 am

Ciwan wrote:Hehe I get that bit SpearThrower, but then the question become why is that particular shape of the nasal cavity and that particular orientation of the nasal bone advantageous ?

Does it need to be advantageous?

If it does, what about sexual selection?

Ciwan · **#26** by **Ciwan** » Dec 02, 2011 9:16 am

Nope it doesn't "have to" be advantageous. I'm just looking for a definite answer to what we currently know about it.

I mean do we say ... we don't know yet ... or do we say we know, we've exhausted all possible things that can give rise to such a feature. From the replies we got in this thread .. I think "we don't currently know" is safer ... no ?

Spearthrower · **#27** by **Spearthrower** » Dec 02, 2011 9:42 am

Ciwan wrote:Nope it doesn't "have to" be advantageous. I'm just looking for a definite answer to what we currently know about it.

I mean do we say ... we don't know yet ... or do we say we know, we've exhausted all possible things that can give rise to such a feature. From the replies we got in this thread .. I think "we don't currently know" is safer ... no ?

My take on it is that you haven't yet established whether there is something to know! :grin:

Ok, ok I am being obtuse because you are focusing on the nostrils and expecting it to be an adaptation, whereas it's more likely to be about the nasal aperture itself.

Of course there are anthropological inquiries into the climatic selection of elements of facial morphology. The problem is that they're all behind pay-walls.

Of particularly interest is Wolpoff's papers on Neanderthals. There's a paper somewhere called Climatic Influence on Nasal Aperture, but I can't find a free copy, and I no longer have access to the journal. That's the main problem here, anything I could point you to is paywalled.... I will see what I can sniff out! :lol:

Ciwan · **#28** by **Ciwan** » Dec 02, 2011 9:43 am

Hehe I guess that too is one way of looking at it

Spearthrower · **#29** by **Spearthrower** » Dec 02, 2011 9:48 am

Ciwan wrote:Hehe I guess that too is one way of looking at it

Sorry I hit post before finishing - I don't mean to be that flippant!

Mazille · **#30** by **Mazille** » Dec 02, 2011 9:50 am

Often certain features coded for by genes (which the nostrils' form is, accidents not withstanding) serve no apparent purpose, but sometimes get fixated in a population through genetic bottlenecks, etc. It could then be - of course - the case that sexual selection kicks in because members of a population where that feature happens to be widespread find mates with characteristics similar to their own - say, flat noses - and of those around them to be more attractive than less similar ones.
I might as well be talking arse here and there is an advantage to having certain forms of noses in certain circumstances, but I have yet to find it in me to really give a shit and go find out.

Edit: I meant the nostrils, not the nasal cavity.

Ciwan · **#31** by **Ciwan** » Dec 02, 2011 10:04 am

Spearthrower wrote:Sorry I hit post before finishing - I don't mean to be that flippant!

No no, I don't think you were flippant ! :lol:

Thanks for the detailed answer. If you can give me the name of the research paper and its Journal .. I'm still a student at Uni, so I might be able to get access to it for Free.

Thanks

Spearthrower · **#32** by **Spearthrower** » Dec 02, 2011 10:06 am

American Journal of Physical Anthropology

Climatic influence on the skeletal nasal aperture, Milford H. Wolpoff, 2005

Ciwan · **#33** by **Ciwan** » Dec 02, 2011 10:08 am

Cool Thank You SpearThrower.

Spearthrower · **#34** by **Spearthrower** » Dec 02, 2011 10:11 am

Ooh something free at last!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC516480/

Oh and I just flicked through some old photocopies and found this too:

Nasal shape, prognathism and adaptation in man. Edward V. Glanville, American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 2005.

It seems probable that both nasal shape and the maxillary dental arch-prognathism complex may be subject to direct selection by environmental stress. The morphological association between these complexes suggests that a part of the interpopulation variation in prognathism may be a secondary effect of selection acting on the nose.

Large Nostrils in certain ethnic groups

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