4k TV arrives at MacDocs

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Re: 4k TV arrives at MacDocs

#181  Postby Animavore » Dec 18, 2019 11:27 pm

Gonna be the anti-Mac here. Unless it's animation, or video games, or documentary; I fuckin' hate 4K!!

I especially notice it now after watching the first 7 episodes of The Expanse in work on 1080p but now watching the remainder on 4k. It's more like watching a play right in front of you with all the obvious fake-ness that entails. Great in a theatre, impressive productions, but on TV just jarring.
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Re: 4k TV arrives at MacDocs

#182  Postby felltoearth » Dec 18, 2019 11:31 pm

You might appreciate this take on resolution and certain kinds of movies.

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Re: 4k TV arrives at MacDocs

#183  Postby Macdoc » Dec 19, 2019 8:30 am

I guess if you admire 70s horror movies it has some relevance.....seems that genre has some fellow travellers here :roll:
This isn't a thread about film making and pop sci nostalgia.

Nostalgia for me is seeing David Lean's cinematography on 70 mm and thinking I could reach out for a handful of sand in Lawrence of Arabia. Or the wonder of iMax at Ontario place.
That detail and dynamic range is now available on wonderful screens for little money at home. Disney and others have done a great job of lifting some older movies into modern formats and detail and dynamic range.

4k HDR 10 on a OLED iPhone screen is astonishing and will be coming to Mac laptops soon and is there on upper end iPads and some PC laptops.

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https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/15/1631 ... -itunes-4k
and that was two years ago

Docs like Planet Earth shot in 4k or higher are simply spectacular. Sure upscaled HD is "okay" but it just takes a short trip back into nostagia land in SD that was watched from 12' away on a 20" box to :yuk:

Youtube is quite capable of 4k and upscaling works well in many circumstances,

YouTube Ultra HD videos don't use H. 265 compression. ... Google implemented the VP9 codec into its Chrome browser and YouTube in 2013, so both have been able to support 4K streams for some time. If you search 4K content within YouTube right now, you'll be able to select 4K as a quality option on each video.May 3, 2019


Something many people don't do .....select the quality in Youtube. With 5g around the corner ...streaming limitations will disappear.

What devices support Dolby Vision? That includes the following devices, according to Apple’s website:

iPhone 8 and later
iPad Pro 12.9-inch (3rd generation)
iPad Pro (11-inch)
iPad Pro 12.9-inch (2nd generation)
iPad Pro (10.5-inch)
Apple TV 4K
4K, 4K HDR, 4K Dolby Vision and HDR10 content is available on all Mac models introduced in 2018 or later with 4K-resolution screens.
iMac Pro

Compatible smart TVs – Can play 4K, HDR, and Dolby Vision content that you AirPlay from your Apple device and can play movies and TV shows in 4K or HDR from the Apple TV app.
Apple also says:

iPad Pro (11-inch) and iPad Pro 12.9-inch (3rd generation) can play 4K, HDR, or Dolby Vision content to a compatible connected display or television.

What about Dolby Atmos? According to Apple’s iOS 13 feature website:

All Mac models introduced in 2018 or later
iPhone 11
iPhone XR
iPhone XS
iPhone XS Max
11‑inch iPad Pro and 12.9‑inch iPad Pro (3rd generation)
Apple TV


https://ww.9to5mac.com/2019/09/11/apple ... lby-atmos/

Apple is lagging on 4k laptops and OLED screens compared to PC offerings.
https://www.laptopmag.com/articles/best-4k-laptops

Even tho it has the 500 nits to support HDR and 4k on current screens - maybe - with justification it feels the current Retina screens offer enough.


Retina display
15.4-inch (diagonal) LED-backlit display with IPS technology; 2880-by-1800 native resolution at 220 pixels per inch with support for millions of colors
Supported scaled resolutions:
1920 by 1200
500 nits brightness
Wide color (P3)
True Tone technology


All these technologies enrich the visual experience while previous attempts on 3d for instance went no where.
People buying 4k drones and cameras want to see what the camera sees.
I noticed even on my new HDR10 monitor the difference between my Gx1 and the HDR capable Gx7 which was early into the higher dynamic range offerings in 2013.

Didn't see much difference until the display screen could offer the required peak brightness.

Looking forward to Star Wars on a big iMax on the weekend. Will not likely choose the 3D version.

Visual feasts these days and it moves forward and gets less expensive. :coffee:
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Re: 4k TV arrives at MacDocs

#184  Postby felltoearth » Dec 19, 2019 11:38 am

You clearly didn’t watch the video as it is ultimately about storytelling focusing on the 90s when VHS was at peak before DVDs were widely available. He makes a similar point to Ani that high resolution can ruin storytelling as it affects suspension of disbelief.
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Re: 4k TV arrives at MacDocs

#185  Postby UncertainSloth » Dec 19, 2019 11:54 am

:lol:
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Re: 4k TV arrives at MacDocs

#186  Postby felltoearth » Dec 19, 2019 12:00 pm

Macdoc wrote:
This isn't a thread about film making and pop sci nostalgia.

Nostalgia for me is seeing David Lean's cinematography on 70 mm and thinking I could reach out for a handful of sand in Lawrence of Arabia. Or the wonder of iMax at Ontario place.

:lol: indeed. This isn't a thread about nostalgia but let's talk about nostalgia.
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Re: 4k TV arrives at MacDocs

#187  Postby Hermit » Dec 19, 2019 12:39 pm

felltoearth wrote:You clearly didn’t watch the video as it is ultimately about storytelling focusing on the 90s when VHS was at peak before DVDs were widely available. He makes a similar point to Ani that high resolution can ruin storytelling as it affects suspension of disbelief.

And before VHS - before television, even - books provided elbow more room to build a world in your own imagination more fascinating than 4K, 8K or whatever will turn up next (holograms?) can hope to deliver. It comes as no surprise that so few movies are as good, let alone better, than the books they are based on.

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Re: 4k TV arrives at MacDocs

#188  Postby I'm With Stupid » Dec 19, 2019 5:29 pm

Hermit wrote:And before VHS - before television, even - books provided elbow more room to build a world in your own imagination more fascinating than 4K, 8K or whatever will turn up next (holograms?) can hope to deliver. It comes as no surprise that so few movies are as good, let alone better, than the books they are based on.

Movies based on books are rarely as good as the books because they weren't conceived as visual stories. It never happens, but you'd have the same effect if you tried to write a novel based on a film. Unsurprisingly, the most successful adaptions nowadays are from comic books, because they're much closer to film in the way they tell stories.
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Re: 4k TV arrives at MacDocs

#189  Postby aufbahrung » Dec 19, 2019 6:29 pm

Monet had cateracts which is why his blue period paintings are so great. Black and white photography with high grain can often create works better than colour digital. So long as there is a retro mode on these new technologies....people can decide with the clicker. :thumbup:
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Re: 4k TV arrives at MacDocs

#190  Postby Macdoc » Dec 19, 2019 7:38 pm

There is not really a "retro mode" ....SD looks horrid.

It's up to the media creator to decide how they want a film to look.
Madalorian for instance is presented with rather western dusty look but still is full 4k HDR which shows up in very well in some scenes especially indoors where new tech allows more natural lighting than studio lit productions.



The big thing with HDR and 4k it gives a movie maker wider choices. What he does with it ....up to him.
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Re: 4k TV arrives at MacDocs

#191  Postby aufbahrung » Dec 19, 2019 8:31 pm



Retro mode....transfer that upscale then?
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Re: 4k TV arrives at MacDocs

#192  Postby Macdoc » Dec 19, 2019 8:55 pm

If there is no detail no upscale is useful - garbage in garbage out.
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Re: 4k TV arrives at MacDocs

#193  Postby aufbahrung » Dec 19, 2019 9:06 pm

Macdoc wrote:If there is no detail no upscale is useful - garbage in garbage out.


Music was much better in the past. Studies done. So 4K is being used to cover up a loss of story-telling, a loss in song-telling and numerous other defects. I don't buy more is less but more is definately not more. Unless its CAD don't think there's a need for the current technological overhaul beyond the emporers new clothes, a gravy train for the entertainment industry bought via a improved 'frame' rather than a improved artwork.
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Re: 4k TV arrives at MacDocs

#194  Postby Macdoc » Dec 19, 2019 9:14 pm

:roll:
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Re: 4k TV arrives at MacDocs

#195  Postby laklak » Dec 19, 2019 10:08 pm

Me old eyes can't tell much of a difference in 720, 1080, or 4K.
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Re: 4k TV arrives at MacDocs

#196  Postby Hermit » Dec 20, 2019 1:54 am

Macdoc wrote:If there is no detail no upscale is useful - garbage in garbage out.


Oh, I don't know about that. Peter Jackson has greatly improved 100 year old monochrome film. Turning footage taken at between 10 and 20 frames per second into 25fps alone is a considerable feat of upscaling. I bet, had there been a perception for the need to improve the resolution of the output, that could have been achieved as well.

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Re: 4k TV arrives at MacDocs

#197  Postby Macdoc » Dec 20, 2019 2:31 am

You are thinking of remastering which is done by the studio

Remaster (also digital remastering and digitally remastered) refers to changing the quality of the sound or of the image, or both, of previously created recordings, either audiophonic, cinematic, or videographic.


While there is some similar processes ...the output device is doing the upscaling.

Upscaling

Upscaling converts low resolution material (most often video or images) into a higher definition. It’s certainly nothing new: upscaling occurs when you output DVD footage to your Full HD television.

There are four primary resolutions you’ll need to know before buying your next TV:

Image

HD: 1280×720
Full HD: 1920×1080
Ultra HD/4K: 3840×2160
Ultra HD/8K: 7620×4380
However, only the first three are widely used. 8K televisions are huge and never took the market by storm. They look amazing, but prices are similarly incredible. Most consider 4K the best quality available for your home.

Note: There is a difference between Ultra HD (UHD) and 4K—but for all intents and purposes, these differences don’t affect regular household consumers. Their disparities are typically only notable for those in video production.

differences between 4k UHD HD 1080p pixels DVD VCD aspect ratio
Image Credit: Wikimedia Commons.
Upscaling produces video that utilizes your monitor’s maximum aspect ratio, even when playing a lower resolution video.

Most flat-screen TVs have a 1920x1080p resolution, resulting in 2,073,600 pixels in total—that’s 1,920 across, multiplied by 1,080 rows of pixels. A 1280×720 HD movie doesn’t use all the available pixels; it only uses 921,600 of them. That’s a huge deficit. A device that supports upscaling, then, “fills in the blanks”, effectively stretching the image across the entire screen.

It does so using an interpolation algorithm. This infers new data by extracting from known elements; it tells “blank” pixels what to do based on what those surrounding it display, and then duplicating that content.

This doesn’t sound like a fair interpretation of a film. To counter this, many manufacturers apply sharpening software to market their products, thereby reducing pixelation or softening. Contrasts are often tampered with to make an image look more vivid.


Remastered films can indeed look wonderful.

One of the guys heavy into home theatre indicates watching a 4k film on an 8k screen has some noticeable advantages in the larger size screens but I'm not sure 8k will make it to main stream use ...tho there are lots of devices out there and a number of clients are shooting in 6k and 8k with an eye to 4k end result. That cushions against some lose in post.

With 5g lurking ...hi-rez streaming loses the barriers tho current 4k streaming is "okay" if not entirely consistent.
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Re: 4k TV arrives at MacDocs

#198  Postby Hermit » Dec 20, 2019 3:24 am

Macdoc wrote:You are thinking of remastering which is done by the studio

Remaster (also digital remastering and digitally remastered) refers to changing the quality of the sound or of the image, or both, of previously created recordings, either audiophonic, cinematic, or videographic.


While there is some similar processes ...the output device is doing the upscaling.

No matter how it is done, remastering in the studio is still upscaling. It renders your categorical assertions "no upscale is useful" and "garbage in garbage out" invalid. No surprise there because your argument is circular. You start off with the definition of upscaling being the result of greater resolutions of output devices and finish up making it the primary factor in improved viewing enjoyment.

That is complete rubbish. I think someone linked to an article earlier in this thread that explained why viewers would not be able to tell if they are looking at HD or 4K picture when watching a typically sized TV from the optimal distance. What Peter Jackson has done to improve the WWI footage is way more important to this viewer's enjoyment than the difference between a HD and a 4K device.

Macdoc wrote:With 5g lurking ...hi-rez streaming loses the barriers tho current 4k streaming is "okay" if not entirely consistent.

Unless the price of 5g data transmissions drops significantly, 5g will be out of reach for the majority of people. Even 4g as a goto for movie access is still too expensive for most.
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Re: 4k TV arrives at MacDocs

#199  Postby Macdoc » Dec 20, 2019 4:54 am

Fine write your own dictionary .....can't help your misperception between remastering and upscaling. All you need to do to prove my point is to view an SD broadcast on a 4k monitor.



and the irony there is that is a restored version. This is the SD version.



Can older film be remastered absolutely. As film is not digital.
The lack of information in the Apollo imaging is simply a case in point of the limits even what the studios can do.

Maybe an Ai system could do it on the fly ...there are photo apps like Photo Lemur that do pretty well



and it still could not improve "garbage". :coffee:

as to 5G...not here ....will be here....a Mitsubishi 50" in 82 cost $8,000. Tech moves forward and costs less over time. Early adopters pay more. But the networks are rolling it out world wide and the phones will come down.

https://www.inc.com/magazine/202002/jen ... ology.html

https://arstechnica.com/information-tec ... ur-things/
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Re: 4k TV arrives at MacDocs

#200  Postby Hermit » Dec 20, 2019 5:45 am

Macdoc wrote:Fine write your own dictionary .....can't help your misperception between remastering and upscaling.

It's not from my own dictionary. Google "upscaling definition". With or without quote marks, the first definition for "upscaling" you'll get is "the action of increasing the size or improving the quality of something.". Your definition, "the facility for or process of converting an image or video so that it displays correctly in a higher resolution format." is mentioned next. It is a more limited, specialised and therefore a secondary one. Also, as I have argued, upscaling a video in the secondary sense is not nearly as noticeable as in the primary one.

Macdoc wrote:as to 5G...not here ....will be here....a Mitsubishi 50" in 82 cost $8,000. Tech moves forward and costs less over time. Early adopters pay more. But the networks are rolling it out world wide and the phones will come down.

Yes, to my never ending delight the price of digital equipment has been dropping for decades even while said gadgets are improvements on the more expensive models they supersede. My first hard disk drive could store 70 Megabytes and cost me about AU$700 in 1989. Two or three years later I upscaled the storage in my computer with a 320 MB HDD (shortly after upscaling the box from a motherboard with an 80286 CPU with one that sported an 80386 unit) for only AU$230. A couple of months ago I bought an 8 Terabyte external HDD for AU$250 :mrgreen:

But I wasn't talking about the cost of hardware. 5G is an advanced wireless technology, last time I looked. Did you miss the words "data transmission" in my previous post when I commented on its cost?
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