Avengers Infinity War

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Re: Avengers Infinity War

#221  Postby quas » May 05, 2019 6:19 pm

Animavore wrote:So -


Why didn't the Avengers stand outside the blast doors when Hulk used the gauntlet?

I thought they were snapping everyone back to their own present time, the future so why was Spider-Man back in our present time at the end?

If Thanos left 2014 to fight the Avengers in the future then surely there's a parallel universe where none of the whole Thanos thing didn't happen?

Why didn't Captain Marvel just fly into space with the gauntlet?


The film has no logical consistency. Tony Stark dies needlessly (he could have a robotic arm wear and operate the gauntlet), but no one complains because everyone wants to see him kill himself.
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Re: Avengers Infinity War

#222  Postby willhud9 » May 05, 2019 6:24 pm

quas wrote:
Animavore wrote:So -


Why didn't the Avengers stand outside the blast doors when Hulk used the gauntlet?

I thought they were snapping everyone back to their own present time, the future so why was Spider-Man back in our present time at the end?

If Thanos left 2014 to fight the Avengers in the future then surely there's a parallel universe where none of the whole Thanos thing didn't happen?

Why didn't Captain Marvel just fly into space with the gauntlet?


The film has no logical consistency. Tony Stark dies needlessly (he could have a robotic arm wear and operate the gauntlet), but no one complains because everyone wants to see him kill himself.


Could he? According to what? All portrayals of the gauntlets use shows the power of the stones combining with the power of the user.

The film actually had pretty solid consistency all things considering.
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Re: Avengers Infinity War

#223  Postby Thommo » May 05, 2019 7:01 pm

That bit was fine, I agree.

The time travel rules... not so much. I have no idea why they even bothered setting them out only to immediately break them. They specified that they could not go back and kill baby Thanos before he ever snapped his fingers because it wouldn't work, then ultimately they took Thanos out of the timeline before he snapped his fingers and killed him. Literally the exact thing they said they couldn't do.

I suppose for the sake of consistency one could assume that Thanos and his army (even the dead ones) were not in fact killed, but sent back in time by the snap with their memories erased, but this would also have to apply to Loki (who escaped), Stark (who did not remember almost having a heart attack), Thor (who did not remember Stark almost having a heart attack), Rogers (who did not remember fighting himself) and so on. That would work, I guess, except they didn't show it and it would mean they can't bring Loki or Gamora back in the next film. However you look at it Gamora must be just as dead as Black Widow, according to the rules they described.

Of course if the stones could allow them to tinker with their own memories to circumvent the rules, then there are other ways they could undo the snap anyway, because they could just create the psychological conditions and memories required to want to go back and stop Thanos without any of the events actually having happened, which totally unwinds the constraints as well.

Not to mention that the plan of getting the gauntlet to the van therefore could not work as it would leave Thanos stranded in the future and unable to perform the actions which led them to travel back in time, which re-opens all the questions of why Marvel didn't just fly off with it. And never mind why it took them so long to realise they could get more particles, or why they wasted their spares on sending multiple people on some of the missions and an extra test flight, why they ran all the missions concurrently, each requiring 2 particles, and why they didn't send the thief capable of making himself essentially invisible on all the missions in a round robin requiring only 1 particle per mission and a single return trip, I assumed all of that was just rule of cool.

I should add that none of this bothered me in any way, shape or form. By and large I'm not watching a comic book film for logical consistency. I just found the film in need of about an hour of editing between the 0:20 mark and the 2:00 mark. :lol:

PS: Also Korg, Miek and that Valkyrie from Thor: Ragnarok were scandalously underused. Korg MVP. :nod:
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Re: Avengers Infinity War

#224  Postby willhud9 » May 05, 2019 7:24 pm

But it doesn’t break the rules established.

Going back to kill baby Thanos wouldn’t change the fact that Thanos snapped his fingers in the OG timeline

It follows a alternative timeline structure of time travel instead of a paradox structure.

As Hulk put it, the past is the future, and the present is now the past. You’re not changing your past by changing your future. It’s why Nebula could shoot alternate timeline Nebula without consequence.

Alternate timelines remove annoying paradoxes in time travel.
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Re: Avengers Infinity War

#225  Postby Thommo » May 05, 2019 7:32 pm

willhud9 wrote:But it doesn’t break the rules established.


Yes it does. It's exactly the same. When Thanos leaves his timeline that is a branching point in exactly the same way. The timeline where Thanos vanished in 2014 is not the original timeline (because he can't then be around in 2018) in exactly the same way the timeline where Thanos died as a baby is not the original timeline. It doesn't matter if he died 4 years ago or 400, if he's dead, he didn't snap his fingers in 2018.

They even double down on this at the New York Sanctuary and come up with a reason that the stones have to be put back.

So it ends up not only not working, but also giving them a way to save Black Widow, Tony Stark, Vision and anyone else they like that they simply can't be arsed with. Time travel back and take them out of the time line before they die. If they can do this with Thanos, Gamora, Loki, Thor's hammer and so on, they can do it with anyone.
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Re: Avengers Infinity War

#226  Postby Ironclad » May 05, 2019 7:41 pm

I still can't believe that Peter Parker's father is Darth Vader. Didn't see that coming!
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Re: Avengers Infinity War

#227  Postby Thommo » May 05, 2019 7:58 pm

Incidentally, I think my one genuine gripe with something other than a turgid mid section of the film was that Banner's situation was just resolved off screen, I felt that was one of the most interesting arcs and it just petered out.
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Re: Avengers Infinity War

#228  Postby Animavore » May 06, 2019 12:38 am

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Re: Avengers Infinity War

#229  Postby quas » May 06, 2019 1:41 am

willhud9 wrote:Could he? According to what? All portrayals of the gauntlets use shows the power of the stones combining with the power of the user.

The film actually had pretty solid consistency all things considering.


If the Mjolnir can be lifted by an elevator or a robot like Vision, then the gauntlet can be operated by a robotic arm. If the only requirement for the snap to work is for it to be willed by a sentient mind, then any human/sentient mind (even Vision's/Ultron's sentience) operating the robotic arm would suffice.
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Re: Avengers Infinity War

#230  Postby willhud9 » May 06, 2019 3:49 am

Thommo wrote:
willhud9 wrote:But it doesn’t break the rules established.


Yes it does. It's exactly the same. When Thanos leaves his timeline that is a branching point in exactly the same way. The timeline where Thanos vanished in 2014 is not the original timeline (because he can't then be around in 2018) in exactly the same way the timeline where Thanos died as a baby is not the original timeline. It doesn't matter if he died 4 years ago or 400, if he's dead, he didn't snap his fingers in 2018.

They even double down on this at the New York Sanctuary and come up with a reason that the stones have to be put back.

So it ends up not only not working, but also giving them a way to save Black Widow, Tony Stark, Vision and anyone else they like that they simply can't be arsed with. Time travel back and take them out of the time line before they die. If they can do this with Thanos, Gamora, Loki, Thor's hammer and so on, they can do it with anyone.


Yea but they wouldn't be the OG versions of themselves and they would know.

In the end, you are right, but I agree with your earlier assessment, watching the movie it was written so well that I was able to just go along with it. It was told so confidently that I didn't question the logic of what I was being told.
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Re: Avengers Infinity War

#231  Postby aban57 » May 06, 2019 7:10 am

I don't remember, does Cap brings back Mjölnir to the original timeline ?
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Re: Avengers Infinity War

#232  Postby Thommo » May 06, 2019 7:25 am

willhud9 wrote:Yea but they wouldn't be the OG versions of themselves and they would know.

In the end, you are right, but I agree with your earlier assessment, watching the movie it was written so well that I was able to just go along with it. It was told so confidently that I didn't question the logic of what I was being told.


It really doesn't matter. What matters is you enjoyed the film a lot. :thumbup:
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Re: Avengers Infinity War

#233  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 06, 2019 7:32 am

I finally saw this yesterday.

Overall I liked a bit better than IW.

Things I liked:
The first part of the movies where they showed the effects/results of Thanos's snap was well done and not skipped over as I feared.
That Antman actually played a significant role and the use of of the quantum verse.
The new/merged Hulk, although I agree with Thommo that it was disappointing that the change happened off screen.
Potbelly Thor was fun.
Nebula was an actual character.
Nice seeing the Sorcerer Supreme again.
Also great to see a lot of heroes back in actions after so long in the end fight, especially Scarlet Witch and Spidey.
Every scene Loki was in. Still sad that he's probably perma-dead

Things I did not like:
Hack-eye's entire family disappearing, except Hawk-eye himself, also Hawk-eye in general, give me Green Arrow any day.
Captain America, because I just personally don't like Cap as a character or hero. So when He started beating up Thanos, where Thor and IM barely made a dent, that really irked me.
Thanos being able to hold off Cap, IM and Thor without any of the stones, while he struggled against Cap and Thor with 4 of the stones
Major plothole: Past-Nebula used the only ampule of Pym particles the bad guys had to go to the future, meaning there was no way for Thanos, let alone his entire army, to travel to the future as well.
Thanos's motivation still makes no sense and I still prefer his motivation from the comics.
Thanos's weapon blocking not only Mjölnir but the Stormbreaker, which was specifically made to beat Thanos, could use the Bifrost and stop a beam from a nearly fully powered gauntlet
Cap wielding Mjölnir, I know it happens in the comics, I just personally don't like it.
Vague writing: Thanos seems to suggest at the start of the film, that it was the specific act of destroying the stones with the stones, that nearly killed him, rather than it being the second time he used them. Yet later on in the film it seems to be insinuated that it uses it more than once will be extra harmful.
I personally liked Captain Marvel's new haircut.
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Re: Avengers Infinity War

#234  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 06, 2019 7:33 am

aban57 wrote:I don't remember, does Cap brings back Mjölnir to the original timeline ?

It's not shown to be, but who knows? It would be better if he brought it back to the time it was taken from, as Thor uses it after Thor 2 if my memory serves me well.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Avengers Infinity War

#235  Postby aban57 » May 06, 2019 7:36 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
aban57 wrote:I don't remember, does Cap brings back Mjölnir to the original timeline ?

It's not shown to be, but who knows? It would be better if he brought it back to the time it was taken from, as Thor uses it after Thor 2 if my memory serves me well.


Yep, that was my point. I had the impression it was a loophole in the scenario, but I can't be sure.
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Re: Avengers Infinity War

#236  Postby scott1328 » May 13, 2019 6:15 pm

My understandingis that there was NO time travel at all in the Endgame movie. What actually happens is that the Avengers were merely traveling into alternate realities whose respective calendars were lagging behing the Avenger's reality's own calendar.

If I understand it correctly, only the Time Stone can actually perform true time travel.
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Re: Avengers Infinity War

#237  Postby purplerat » May 15, 2019 8:47 pm

scott1328 wrote:My understandingis that there was NO time travel at all in the Endgame movie. What actually happens is that the Avengers were merely traveling into alternate realities whose respective calendars were lagging behing the Avenger's reality's own calendar.

If I understand it correctly, only the Time Stone can actually perform true time travel.

I don't think that's it exactly. They are time traveling back in time in their own reality but when they change something they create a new branched reality which is parallel to their own as opposed to changing their own reality.

If they were traveling to realities in lagged time then presumably the same amount of time they spend in those realities would pass in their own. But that's not what happens. When Cap travels back in time (or to a lagged reality as you put it) he spends several decades there yet is able to return to his own time/reality only a few minutes later.

Additionally there's the earlier scene where the "push time though" Ant Man making it clear that they are manipulating time itself. But that scene is kind of shit and doesn't really make sense with the rest of their time travel so I'd prefer to just ignore it.
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Re: Avengers Infinity War

#238  Postby Ironclad » May 15, 2019 8:55 pm

Can't we talk normally yet? This has been out a month
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Re: Avengers Infinity War

#239  Postby felltoearth » May 15, 2019 9:10 pm

Ok.

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Re: Avengers Infinity War

#240  Postby Ironclad » May 15, 2019 9:52 pm

:nono:
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