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Re: Game of Thrones

#6681  Postby purplerat » May 20, 2019 8:15 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:Image

:lol:

Considering the Reach was already promised to Bronn I suppose they could have struck up a compromise where the Unsullied get to do all the ruling and Bronn all the fucking.
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6682  Postby Matthew Shute » May 20, 2019 8:39 pm

willhud9 wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Matthew Shute wrote:Such weird pacing this season. We start with 2 slow buildup episodes (which I thought were great, btw), then 10 episodes worth of story and action jammed into the next 3 episodes (with, erm, inevitably mixed results... to put it mildly), and we end with a slow resolution episode, which had some good moments, but for me didn't feel anything like sufficient payoff (and all sorts of mysteries and side plots are left hanging, with most of the relevant characters dead).

Well, at least Jon got a proper reunion with his good doggy.

The sentencing Jon to the Night's Watch thing didn't make much sense to me. With the army of the dead defeated and peace with the free folk, why would there even still be a Night's Watch? What are they supposed to be guarding the realms of men from, now?

I also don't buy Greyworm, the Unsullied and the Dothraki agreeing with that sentence. Speaking of the Dothraki, where'd they go in the resolution?


I also don’t buy the fact that after Jon kills Dany that he wouldn’t be executed immediately. Why was he arrested and several weeks pass by? Surely Grey Worm who had no issue butchering Lannister npcs would kill Jon?


Since Drogon flew off with the body, to a different continent for all anyone knows, Jon could've told them anything. Or played dumb: "Has anyone seen Daenerys? I checked the throne room, but it looks like she decided to melt the throne and fly off somewhere. Odd! But then she has been acting strangely lately, hasn't she?" Sow confusion and buy himself some time at least. Given this was Jon, though, he probably walked up to the nearest Unsullied and said, "M'queen is dead because I stabbed her! Look no further. It was me what done the stabbing."
"Change will preserve us. It is the lifeblood of the Isles. It will move mountains! It will mount movements!" - Sheogorath
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6683  Postby willhud9 » May 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Honestly I think Jon Snow was just the worst victim of the show. He’s been a dumb character since the conclusion of season 5.
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6684  Postby purplerat » May 20, 2019 9:11 pm

Jon has always been a rather dumb character. Much in the same way Ned was. Maybe he was written that way as a diversion for the R+L sub plot.
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6685  Postby willhud9 » May 20, 2019 9:19 pm

I don’t mind ideologically lawful good/neutral good characters.

Jon fit the bill for that. But for once it’s be nice to see Jon think for himself instead of having plot exposition lead him along.
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6686  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 21, 2019 6:40 am

purplerat wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
purplerat wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Did you not see Greyworms facial expressions during these last two episodes? He seemed to act more out of (grief stricken) rage, than coolly following orders.

I did. As I mentioned in my previous posts and earlier in the thread I say him acting out in rage.

I agree that those actions don't exactly square up with him being able to remain poised and act rationally. Then again I know many real people who will fly off the handle and act on pure emotion in one moment then in another appear completely rational, so...

The point still stands that it would have been stupid for Grey Worm to immediately kill Jon. Whether you want to believe he had the capacity to act intelligently or even rationally is open to interpretation I suppose.

Of course it wasn't the smart thing to do, neither was threatening to start another war if the other lords did not let him kill John....

That would be dumb, if that were how it actually went down.

It did though. He threatened to go to war if the others tried to prevent him from killing John.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6687  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 21, 2019 6:42 am

Matthew Shute wrote:
willhud9 wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Matthew Shute wrote:Such weird pacing this season. We start with 2 slow buildup episodes (which I thought were great, btw), then 10 episodes worth of story and action jammed into the next 3 episodes (with, erm, inevitably mixed results... to put it mildly), and we end with a slow resolution episode, which had some good moments, but for me didn't feel anything like sufficient payoff (and all sorts of mysteries and side plots are left hanging, with most of the relevant characters dead).

Well, at least Jon got a proper reunion with his good doggy.

The sentencing Jon to the Night's Watch thing didn't make much sense to me. With the army of the dead defeated and peace with the free folk, why would there even still be a Night's Watch? What are they supposed to be guarding the realms of men from, now?

I also don't buy Greyworm, the Unsullied and the Dothraki agreeing with that sentence. Speaking of the Dothraki, where'd they go in the resolution?


I also don’t buy the fact that after Jon kills Dany that he wouldn’t be executed immediately. Why was he arrested and several weeks pass by? Surely Grey Worm who had no issue butchering Lannister npcs would kill Jon?


Since Drogon flew off with the body, to a different continent for all anyone knows, Jon could've told them anything. Or played dumb: "Has anyone seen Daenerys? I checked the throne room, but it looks like she decided to melt the throne and fly off somewhere. Odd! But then she has been acting strangely lately, hasn't she?" Sow confusion and buy himself some time at least. Given this was Jon, though, he probably walked up to the nearest Unsullied and said, "M'queen is dead because I stabbed her! Look no further. It was me what done the stabbing."

"Also I don't want it."
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6688  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 21, 2019 7:30 am

Image
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6689  Postby tuco » May 21, 2019 8:37 am

I guess I can head to the bay now to become a part.

and see the dragons and nudity!
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6690  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 21, 2019 12:10 pm

Image
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6691  Postby purplerat » May 21, 2019 12:14 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
purplerat wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
purplerat wrote:
I did. As I mentioned in my previous posts and earlier in the thread I say him acting out in rage.

I agree that those actions don't exactly square up with him being able to remain poised and act rationally. Then again I know many real people who will fly off the handle and act on pure emotion in one moment then in another appear completely rational, so...

The point still stands that it would have been stupid for Grey Worm to immediately kill Jon. Whether you want to believe he had the capacity to act intelligently or even rationally is open to interpretation I suppose.

Of course it wasn't the smart thing to do, neither was threatening to start another war if the other lords did not let him kill John....

That would be dumb, if that were how it actually went down.

It did though. He threatened to go to war if the others tried to prevent him from killing John.

Um, no that's not what happened.

Grey Worm tells the others that he'll do what he wants with his prisoner.

Sansa threatens him saying there are thousands of Northmen who will attack if Jon is harmed.

Grey Worm replies simply stating that the Unsullied would defend themselves.

Yara and several of the other Lords pipe in that they are with Grey Worm as it was Dany and her armies who liberated them.

There's a bit of a pissing match between Arya and Yara before Davos steps up and calms everybody down.

But at no point do I recall Grey Worm threatening war. And really it's only Sansa and presumably Arya who strongly object to whatever his plans are for Jon. The rest seem content to stick with Dany's army.
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6692  Postby Mike_L » May 21, 2019 2:23 pm

The whole thing is just a rip-off of George Lucas' Star Wars prequel trilogy (1999 - 2005)...

[Reveal] Spoiler: GoT / Star Wars
* Daenerys Targaryen = Anakin Skywalker, good guys who turn bad

* the Unsullied = the Clone Army

* the dragons in GoT are much like the Force in Star Wars, in each instance being wielded for both good and evil

* attack on King's Landing = attack on Jedi temple in Revenge of the Sith

* in each case the hero-turned villain has to be dealt with by a friend / ally... Daenerys by Jon Snow, and Anakin by Obi-wan Kenobi.

* each ends with a hero / principal character going into exile... Jon Snow to the North, and Yoda to Dagobah, Obi-wan to Tatooine.


Of course you GoT fanboys will never agree with me, but you know I'm right!

:hide: :grin:
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6693  Postby aban57 » May 21, 2019 2:48 pm

GOT starts with Jon Snow's exile.
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6694  Postby electricwhiteboy » May 21, 2019 2:52 pm

Mike_L wrote:The whole thing is just a rip-off of George Lucas' Star Wars prequel trilogy (1999 - 2005)...

[Reveal] Spoiler: GoT / Star Wars
* Daenerys Targaryen = Anakin Skywalker, good guys who turn bad

* the Unsullied = the Clone Army

* the dragons in GoT are much like the Force in Star Wars, in each instance being wielded for both good and evil

* attack on King's Landing = attack on Jedi temple in Revenge of the Sith

* in each case the hero-turned villain has to be dealt with by a friend / ally... Daenerys by Jon Snow, and Anakin by Obi-wan Kenobi.

* each ends with a hero / principal character going into exile... Jon Snow to the North, and Yoda to Dagobah, Obi-wan to Tatooine.


Of course you GoT fanboys will never agree with me, but you know I'm right!

:hide: :grin:


You just trolling, or have you never read about the Hero's Journey? :smile:
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6695  Postby Mike_L » May 21, 2019 3:06 pm

Just trolling! :grin:

The first book was written in 1996, three years before the first of Lucas' prequel trilogy.
The ending of the TV series does have similarities to to Revenge of the Sith but, as you say, hero's journey.
And, of course, there is a limited number of plots / themes, making recurrences basically inevitable.

;)
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6696  Postby Matthew Shute » May 21, 2019 3:45 pm

willhud9 wrote:I don’t mind ideologically lawful good/neutral good characters.

Jon fit the bill for that. But for once it’s be nice to see Jon think for himself instead of having plot exposition lead him along.


I really disliked how Tyrion had to work so hard to persuade Jon that Dany is out of control and genocidal, Jon says he won't even attempt to justify the mass murder, then Jon immediately tries making feeble excuses for her.
:nono:

Further to my last post, I don't think Jon is too dumb to deceive anyone. At some point in season 7 the writers just decided to make him unable to tell a lie (even to Cersei!), as if this had always been a thing. But his whole story in season 3 was about him infiltrating Mance Rayder's army, deceiving them into thinking he'd turned his back on the Night's Watch and wholeheartedly joined them. At some point after getting to know them and their cause (they're effectively fleeing a genocide at the hands of the White Walkers), and after falling for Ygritte, he's genuinely torn about which way to jump... though by the time they tell him to do something against his morals, his mind is made up. Remember his "you were right the whole time" line, when he gets found out?

[Reveal] Spoiler:


By season 7 either the writers "kinda forgot" about Jon's entire season 3 story, or (more charitably) it was this part of Jon's life that made him decide he would never deceive anyone else again. Though, in the latter case, I feel like I'm doing the writers' jobs for them again as a viewer, since the show never hints at this being the reason. Jon just says he won't lie because, if enough people do so, words lose any meaning, and then the living will lose against the Night King, or something.
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6697  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 22, 2019 11:11 am

Image
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6698  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 22, 2019 11:12 am

Image
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6699  Postby Matthew Shute » May 22, 2019 11:31 am

The army Dany addresses in her Nuremberg Rally thingy (note, it doesn't even include all the northmen, just her own personal forces) sure would've come in handy towards the end of the Battle of Winterfell, when there looked to be a tiny handful of survivors, all named characters, holding out against hundreds of thousands of wights and a zombie dragon.
:sigh:
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6700  Postby electricwhiteboy » May 22, 2019 1:25 pm

Matthew Shute wrote:The army Dany addresses in her Nuremberg Rally thingy (note, it doesn't even include all the northmen, just her own personal forces) sure would've come in handy towards the end of the Battle of Winterfell, when there looked to be a tiny handful of survivors, all named characters, holding out against hundreds of thousands of wights and a zombie dragon.
:sigh:


It did seem there were always exactly enough Unsullied as the plot required in that specific scene.

You could hand wave it by saying reserves, or regrouping, but that never felt plausible from what you see on screen.
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