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Re: Game of Thrones

#6701  Postby aban57 » May 22, 2019 4:19 pm

https://variety.com/2019/tv/news/game-of-thrones-plastic-water-bottle-spotted-in-series-finale-1203220788/

Two weeks after a rogue coffee cup made its way into an episode of “Game of Thrones,” another modern-day refreshment popped up in Westeros, this time in the form of a plastic water bottle.

During one of the most important scenes in Sunday’s farewell episode, in which “The Iron Throne” was decided, a water bottle can be seen tucked behind Sir Samwell Tarly’s foot.
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6702  Postby purplerat » May 22, 2019 4:29 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:Image

They forgot that back in season 6.
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6703  Postby scott1328 » May 22, 2019 5:52 pm

Matthew Shute wrote:The army Dany addresses in her Nuremberg Rally thingy (note, it doesn't even include all the northmen, just her own personal forces) sure would've come in handy towards the end of the Battle of Winterfell, when there looked to be a tiny handful of survivors, all named characters, holding out against hundreds of thousands of wights and a zombie dragon.
:sigh:

Daenerys started with 8,000 unsullied. Do you really think that the "Nuremburg" shot portrayed anything close to 8,000 men? It might have shown 500.
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6704  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 22, 2019 5:58 pm

scott1328 wrote:
Matthew Shute wrote:The army Dany addresses in her Nuremberg Rally thingy (note, it doesn't even include all the northmen, just her own personal forces) sure would've come in handy towards the end of the Battle of Winterfell, when there looked to be a tiny handful of survivors, all named characters, holding out against hundreds of thousands of wights and a zombie dragon.
:sigh:

Daenerys started with 8,000 unsullied. Do you really think that the "Nuremburg" shot portrayed anything close to 8,000 men? It might have shown 500.

My bold.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6705  Postby purplerat » May 22, 2019 7:18 pm

The Unsullied were primarily outside Winterfell during the battle and the latter part of the episode focused inside the walls. Do you think the Unsullied just stopped fighting once the cameras were off them or something?

They even stated the losses in the next episode.

FFS, I wonder if some of you guys even watch the show or if you just take notes from the memes.
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6706  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 22, 2019 7:54 pm

purplerat wrote:The Unsullied were primarily outside Winterfell during the battle and the latter part of the episode focused inside the walls. Do you think the Unsullied just stopped fighting once the cameras were off them or something?

They even stated the losses in the next episode.

FFS, I wonder if some of you guys even watch the show or if you just take notes from the memes.

I could say the same to you.
The only reason the undead got to the wall in the first place was because they'd massacred the Unsullied standing in front of it.
They were completely overwhelmed.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6707  Postby purplerat » May 22, 2019 8:00 pm

Being overwhelmed doesn't mean they were completely wiped out.

I do think that stating only half were loss undersells the devastation of the battle especially for the Dothraki but it's not unreasonable that a large number of unsullied would have survived given their fighting style.
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6708  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 22, 2019 8:21 pm

purplerat wrote:Being overwhelmed doesn't mean they were completely wiped out.

You're really grasping at straws at this point.
Why would the undead not have killed them?

purplerat wrote:
I do think that stating only half were loss undersells the devastation of the battle especially for the Dothraki but it's not unreasonable that a large number of unsullied would have survived given their fighting style.

Where'd they go between the start of the battle and the moment the undead encircled the burning trench?
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6709  Postby purplerat » May 22, 2019 8:44 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
purplerat wrote:Being overwhelmed doesn't mean they were completely wiped out.

You're really grasping at straws at this point.
Why would the undead not have killed them?

The time scale of the battle isn't exactly defined but it seems like it's something measured in minutes not hours. Even if the Unsullied are overrun that doesn't mean they all automatically die like it's and RTS game or something. The wights are basically conventional hand-to-hand fighters, albeit in large numbers, but there's no reason to think the Unsullied wouldn't wouldn't be able to hold their own for a bit.

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
purplerat wrote:
I do think that stating only half were loss undersells the devastation of the battle especially for the Dothraki but it's not unreasonable that a large number of unsullied would have survived given their fighting style.

Where'd they go between the start of the battle and the moment the undead encircled the burning trench?

I don't recall seeing the entire wall/trench encircled nor seeing thousands of dead Unsullied. Obviously the episode was dark and they used that only to show what fit the tone at the moment.
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6710  Postby Matthew Shute » May 22, 2019 8:44 pm

scott1328 wrote:
Matthew Shute wrote:The army Dany addresses in her Nuremberg Rally thingy (note, it doesn't even include all the northmen, just her own personal forces) sure would've come in handy towards the end of the Battle of Winterfell, when there looked to be a tiny handful of survivors, all named characters, holding out against hundreds of thousands of wights and a zombie dragon.
:sigh:

Daenerys started with 8,000 unsullied.


I know. Now go back and watch episode 3, all the way to the end. See how many seem to be in evidence after tidal waves of wights have been washing over them, or literally raining on them.

Do you really think that the "Nuremburg" shot portrayed anything close to 8,000 men?


Obviously not. How did you surmise I might've thought that?

It might have shown 500.


Possibly. Adding the Unsullied and Dothraki in those shots, there looks considerably more than that to me. But okay, let's go with 500. Is there any evidence of these 500 in the final stages of the Battle of Winterfell? Oh, we also have "thousands" of northmen left, according to Sansa, who uses their existence to threaten Greyworm. Remember this is just weeks after the battle with the Night King, the final scenes of which suggest that the surviving troops would've been in the tens rather than the hundreds... certainly not the thousands.

Look at all those Dothraki. Here's David Beihoff, talking about the Dothraki charge in episode 3:

What [Jon & Dany] see is just the end of the Dothraki, essentially...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJ1yC3yESLQ


After the flaming arakhs go out (very dramatic scene) we see, what, 5 returning alive, plus a handful of riderless horses? The whole point of the scene, dramatically, is that the formidable Dothraki get quickly "snuffed out" like they're nothing, just to emphasise the apparent hopelessness of the situation.

But... the next episode? The characters and audience are casually informed that half of the entire Dothraki faction survived the battle. Eh...? WTF were they doing for the rest of the battle, then? And why did the writer himself tell us the faction had been wiped out, only to immediately summon them back into existence when Dany's forces need to look more powerful again? Because the writers have lost all sense of consequence, maybe? Let's face it, the Unsullied and the Dothraki are almost completely obliterated in one episode, then hordes of them are resurrected in the next, as if it's the writers trying to be the Night King. As electricwhiteboy put it, the numbers rise and fall depending on what the next scene or line of dialogue seems to call for.
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6711  Postby purplerat » May 22, 2019 9:43 pm

I can't find a reference for what the actual numbers of Unsullied and Dothraki that Dany had in the show but consider this estimation for their loses. 8000 Unsullied is the floor for them. Depending on the actual accounting their might have been between 10k-16k. The Dothraki could be anywhere between 40k-100k.

So if after the sack of Kings Landing Dany has 500-1000 Unsullied and Dothraki each then we're talking about their having lost 90% and 98%+ respectively.
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6712  Postby Matthew Shute » May 23, 2019 6:07 am

Again, just go back and watch the final scenes of the Winterfell battle, where there's a handful of named characters left fighting against hopeless odds, kept alive this long only by wight-resistant plot armour. Try to spot any indication of the "thousands" of northmen and the 500-1000 of Unsullied who're supposedly alongside them. (There shouldn't be any significant force of Dothraki at all, just going by the writer's statement that their suicidal charge was essentially "the end of the Dothraki", or maybe just going by what the episode showed us).

And I strongly suggest turning up the brightness. It's almost like you watched a different episode from the one I saw.
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6713  Postby juju7 » May 23, 2019 9:38 am

A lot of my friends claim they dont watch GOT but yet they talk about it a lot.
Weird.
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6714  Postby purplerat » May 23, 2019 1:14 pm

Matthew Shute wrote:Again, just go back and watch the final scenes of the Winterfell battle, where there's a handful of named characters left fighting against hopeless odds, kept alive this long only by wight-resistant plot armour. Try to spot any indication of the "thousands" of northmen and the 500-1000 of Unsullied who're supposedly alongside them. (There shouldn't be any significant force of Dothraki at all, just going by the writer's statement that their suicidal charge was essentially "the end of the Dothraki", or maybe just going by what the episode showed us).

And I strongly suggest turning up the brightness. It's almost like you watched a different episode from the one I saw.

It was pretty obvious that they shot the second half of that episode to focus in on the named characters and as opposed to showing the full scale of the battle. It's a fair criticism to say it would have been better if they weren't all shown so isolated but you can't seriously believe that the intent was to show literally everybody being dead with the exception of a dozen or fewer named characters.

Still we do see in the end that they lose 90-99% of their forces.
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6715  Postby Svartalf » May 23, 2019 1:48 pm

juju7 wrote:A lot of my friends claim they dont watch GOT but yet they talk about it a lot.
Weird.

If you don't see me posting a lot here, it's because I did not watch it and am totally stymied at trying to understand what happened and who did what from the comments in this thread.
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6716  Postby minininja » May 23, 2019 2:22 pm

You know one that took me by surprise in the previous episode was Qyburn. I always thought his motivation was very much personal ambition to have the power to carry out his clever experiments and gain more power doing so. When he saw that his scorpions had all been destroyed and Cersei refused to retreat with him, I assumed he'd quickly and quietly slip away. Instead he stayed oddly loyal to her even so far as to very stupidly pick a fight with the Mountain. There's almost some poetic justice that he gets killed by his creation, but it didn't seem right.
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6717  Postby Matthew Shute » May 23, 2019 7:52 pm

Thoughts on season 8 as a whole...

What I loved:

    -It started off well. I found episode 1 solid and episode 2 great. My only concern at that point that was: we were already running low on episodes, and not much had actually happened in terms of the plot.

    -All the stunning visuals, the set and costume designs, the visual effects and cinematography.

    -Ramin Djawadi's soundtrack (the star of every season so far if you ask me).

    -I thought the acting was consistently good, from just about everyone, and often excellent.

Divisive things that I was okay with:

    -Arya killing the Night King. Honestly I would've preferred that it was Jon, but I didn't mind the kill going to one of my favourite characters, and a super-assassin. It's a pity that the coalition of the living didn't plan to use her in this capacity from the very start (then again, everyone except Sansa and Bran (see below) was an idiot this season). She also didn't get to use her ability to swap faces, but never mind. It was Arya's destiny to stop the existential threat of Ice, and Jon's to stop the existential threat of Fire. It probably should've been the other way around, but I didn't hate this.

    -Bran becoming king. I didn't dislike this as much as some did, judging from comments online. It made me look at Bran in a completely new light, because he was apparently a scheming Machiavellian little shit this entire time(!), or at least since losing his humanity inside that tree. He told Sam to tell Jon about Jon's Targaryen ancestry, knowing that this would eventually reach Sansa's ears, ultimately driving wedges between various characters, driving Dany in the direction of insanity or evil or both, leading to the destruction of King's Landing and its people, leading to Dany's death, leading to... Bran becoming the King! It's actually incredibly sinister, and the writers should've made more of this aspect (maybe they didn't because they didn't even see the implications of what they'd written). Oh, and that enigmatic look that the Night King gives Bran in the godswood? Maybe in that moment the NK recognised something familiar and disturbing in Bran ("are we so very different, Bran?")...! People have pointed out that Bran previously said he wouldn't/couldn't be any kind of ruler. Sure, but maybe he was lying. Machiavellian schemers do that from time to time.

    -Drogon burning the throne. The criticism I've seen is that Drogon is "just an animal", so how could he realise the throne helped drive his mother down a dark path of obsession with power? In an earlier episode Tyrion explains how some Maesters believe Dragons are more intelligent than people. The extent of their intelligence is simply unknown, in other words. Some psychic link between Dany and Drogon has also been hinted at, like when Drogon knows to rescue her from the Sons of the Harpy in season 5... or how he realises Dany is dead an instant after Jon stabs her. So maybe the dragon has picked up on the fact that Dany's obsession with the throne was a major part of what led to her death. This is something that could've benefited from more buildup or explanation, but that's the story with everything this season.

    -Cersei's death. Some criticised the scene for humanising such a monstrous villain, robbing her of a more badass death-scene. But Cersei has always been a complex and human, all-too-human, character. Plus the actress made this death scene much, much better than it should've been on paper. I couldn't help but like it.

    -Dany committing mass murder, then deluding herself that she's somehow not the very thing she swore to destroy. I have no problem with this being her ultimate destination as a character, only with how she got there in this season (lack of sufficient buildup, again).

Things I disliked or positively hated:

    -Killing off the Night King so early in the season, as if he was a Ramsay Bolton/Euron Greyjoy tier villain, not the demonic embodiment of death itself, as he was built up to be. From the first scene of episode 1, the White Walkers are presented as a terrifying threat to the realm, eventually to life itself. This threat is built upon over 7 seasons... and... then it's mostly forgotten and no big deal by episode 4. Those invested in this story line ever since the pilot episode deserved so much better.

    -The fact that Jon was reduced to a useless tool for most of season 8, just reacting to things with a concerned or confused look on his face. Also the fact that Tyrion needs to work hard to persuade Jon that systematically murdering a million civilians is an evil thing to do. ("Would you do it?" ... "I don't know." Fuck off.) In season 3 Jon deceived and betrayed someone he loved far more (Ygritte) over far less, where his sense of what was right came into it. Jon Snow fans and Kit Harrigton deserved a lot better than this.

    -The abrupt way in which Dany descends to an extreme level villainy and psychopathy. The character always had a brutal side, but there was always a reason behind the brutality: she saw herself as rightfully punishing those who had wronged the innocent, for example. She was never about systematically murdering the innocent, by the hundreds of thousands, to make a point and/or because she's seething with rage at the world in general. Emilia Clarke did the best job she could, trying to sell this transformation to the audience, and it's not her acting that's at fault. Because it wasn't built up properly, the turn felt unearned and baffling, destroying immersion for many including me. Daenerys fans and Emilia Clarke deserved so much better.

    -How little the writers gave Cersei to say and do. She had, what, 5 or 6 lines of dialogue in total? The one decision she made turned out to be dumb and wrong, killing Missandei to provoke Daenerys. Keeping Missandei as a hostage and bargaining chip would've been smarter, but again, almost everyone has to be as dumb as a rock this season. Hell, using the scorpions to kill Daenerys and her entire cohort during that scene would've made more sense. Anyway, they had one of the best actors playing arguably the best-developed character in GoT, and they do almost nothing with her, as the plot surges on like a stumbling tidal wave of wights. Such a waste! Cersei fans and Lena Headey deserved so much better.

    -The fact that the show persisted with its tedious "Tyrion is now an idiot" arc, if it can be called that. "Where's the best place to hide all the defenceless women and children from a necromancer who can raise the dead? I know! A crypt full of the dead!" Was Tyrion involved in this cretinous plan? Did he never question it? Why does he have to be wrong about everything for 4 entire seasons, with absolute consistency? Why would any ruler keep him around when every plan he suggests ends in farcical failure, and every choice he makes is guaranteed to be incorrect? Tyrion fans and Peter Dinklage deserved so much better.

    -Jaime Lannister's backsliding, regarding his addiction to Cersei. Arguably this might be realistic, but is it interesting or good storytelling when we've seen the same pattern what feels like a dozen times? Why not have him die during the battle of Winterfell? More realistic than using plot armour to keep him alive during said battle, and it still "subverts expectations" since few fans expected him to die. Jaime knighting Brienne could've been the culmination of his arc. Fans of this excellent character, and Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, deserved a more satisfying conclusion after all the highs and lows of his development.

    -The fact that Varys is reduced to an unsubtle, bungling schemer who almost immediately gets caught, his plotting quickly coming to nothing (at least nothing he designed). Yes, even Varys falls prey to whatever collective brain-eating disease addles the characters. Varys fans and Conleth Hill deserved so much more.

    -The sheer amount of inconsistencies and nonsense this season. Characters easily make it through enemy lines as if this is nothing (Melisandre arriving at Winterfell from the direction of the army of the dead, or Bronn making it to Jaime and Tyrion, carrying a large and conspicuous crossbow), but if Jaime tries to sneak into territory he knows better than any Unsullied, but the plot needs Jaime to get caught, then he inevitably gets caught (we never find out how or why, in any of these cases). In one episode, scorpions are so effective at killing dragons that Dany is utterly powerless against a dozen of them; in the next, she takes out scores of the things every few seconds as if they're trivial inconveniences. Resources and troop numbers are all over the place, and consequences only matter if and when the writers find it convenient. Characters no longer drive the story, by doing what they would; they're treated more like props who have to do and say whatever the plot clunkily tells them they must. The story deserved better than a rushed mess.

    -The fact that we got a rushed mess. The fact that 20-30 episodes of remaining story were crudely shoved into 13 episodes, 2 truncated seasons instead of the 2 or 3 full seasons GRRM and some at HBO argued for. Asked why the show had to come to an end, GRRM replied, "ask Dave and Dan". He was confident there was enough life and material left to make as many as 13 seasons, total. And yet 8 full seasons was too much to ask? Apparently so, cuz Star Wars. GoT deserved so much better.
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6718  Postby purplerat » May 23, 2019 8:30 pm

while I might nit pick at a point here or there I think that's a pretty fair assessment.
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6719  Postby purplerat » May 23, 2019 8:44 pm

Matthew Shute wrote:-The fact that we got a rushed mess. The fact that 20-30 episodes of remaining story were crudely shoved into 13 episodes, 2 truncated seasons instead of the 2 or 3 full seasons GRRM and some at HBO argued for. Asked why the show had to come to an end, GRRM replied, "ask Dave and Dan". He was confident there was enough life and material left to make as many as 13 seasons, total. And yet 8 full seasons was too much to ask? Apparently so, cuz Star Wars. GoT deserved so much better.


Not really a disagreement as I would have loved more GoT and a more developed endgame possibly over several more season, but given the reality of the show and what it was taking to produce it I don't know that I would really want multiple more seasons.

It took them 3 years to produce 2 seasons which are really only about 1.5 seasons. So basically it was taking them 2 years per season with diminishing returns at that. Which I think is practically unavoidable in TV. I think the season 8 we got was the least worst option for ending the series. Yes it could have been better but the idea of 5 more seasons spread out over another decade sounds torturous.
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6720  Postby electricwhiteboy » May 23, 2019 9:36 pm

Re the dragon burning the Throne. I could witter on forever about that. Commonly dragons represent the subconscious, greed, and time in myth. For Jon the last standing Targaryen rejecting the throne it was absolutely right for the dragon to burn it. The whole thing of him being unopposed by Drogon twice makes perfect sense in the hero's journey, the challenge here being the self and temptation. Character is what you are alone in the dark, Jon has his moment of final temptation and passes.

I've got a personal theory that the dragons represent aspects of Danny's personality. As they die so do elements of her pyche, leaving only Drogon the largest, fiercest. Does the rider control the dragon, or the dragon control the rider?

It's really, really needed Jon talking about what was going on in his head all those times he looked Drogon directly in the eyes to someone. The whole Danny and Jon and Dragons arc hasn't been touched in the book. I'm not surprised D and D fucked it royally, Martin has been putting off writing it for YEARS.
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