purplerat wrote:

Animavore wrote:I'll be waiting for the complete remake in 30 years.

At this point I'd put the odds at GRRM living a another 30 years about even with him ever finishing the books.

He should let Stephen King take over and finish up for him...

(4 minutes)

Animavore wrote:

GAME OF THRONES FANS PETITION HBO TO REMAKE SEASON 8 "WITH COMPETENT WRITERS"

https://ie.ign.com/articles/2019/05/16/ ... 610b001078

Over half a million signatures already! Honestly I can understand why many people feel let down, when characterisation is ignored or reversed and character arcs go down the toilet in what feels like a crazed dash to the finish line. A good example commonly cited is Jamie explaining to Tyrion how, meh, he never cared about the innocent people of King's Landing... when a fundamental point was him saving their lives by Kingslaying (consider perhaps his best scene in the show tossed in the trash with one throwaway remark). The most common criticism I see, including from people who enjoyed episode 5, is how rushed everything seems. Considering that D&D were offered more money to do 10 episodes, and they refused, insisting on cramming the remaining story into just 6 (a nigh on impossible task even if they were better storytellers), it's easy to see why they're getting flak.

purplerat wrote:Better yet would be to petition GRRM to finish the story. Not much point in trying to remake the show when the original story hasn't even been completed.

Also a fair point. GRRM was a main reason that seasons 1 to 4 were so good, something hard to argue against given that the decline began as soon as the show runners got beyond the books. Still, they could've worked more closely with him on finishing this, and I think that with better writers (also writers who weren't seemingly hellbent on washing their hands of the series as quickly as possible), plus the 10 episodes HBO wanted to commission, we could've gotten a better than final run than what we've had.

Animavore wrote:I'll be waiting for the complete remake in 30 years.

Yes, bring it on.

Matthew Shute wrote:A good example commonly cited is Jamie explaining to Tyrion how, meh, he never cared about the innocent people of King's Landing... when a fundamental point was him saving their lives by Kingslaying (consider perhaps his best scene in the show tossed in the trash with one throwaway remark).

This is a thing that irks me with many of the complaints. People say they want complex and realistic characters yet when a character doesn't act in the most predicable and monotonous way possible they complain.

In the above cited example Jamie is supposed to be using a throwaway remark. It's not bad writing it's who the character is. Even the tone of his voice reflects him reverting back to the old Jaime Lannister which is the type of thing realistic and complex characters do. Does it not occur to people that he is being dishonest when he says he never cared for the innocent? That he's using the line to try and push Tyrion away in a moment where his brother is trying to reach him emotionally. In the scene Tyrion is desperately reaching out to Jaime and Jaime is fighting it. Even when Tyrion tells Jaime he would not have survived without him Jaime replies "that's not true". It's a very realistic moment between the two.

It's also very similar to Jaime's final scene with Brienne. He uses the same tactics and even lies about his true character ("She's Hateful, So Am I") to try and push her away. This is a man who has spent his whole life having to mask his true feelings. He should be good at yet. Yes there are moments when he does reveal his true self but that doesn't mean he either always has to or never does. Because he's supposed to be a complex character.

With the advantage of the inner monologue from the books I took it as being a comment on his divided or conflicted nature in both cases. He's warring with himself as he has been for his whole life between two versions of himself, one manifested by Brienne and the other by Cersei, one honourable and who does things for noble reasons, for duty, and the other a monster, a base, carnal, violent creature. An example of the so-called dual nature of man.

Jaime's journey was never clearly an arc of redemption (and I remember some years ago making a case here that yes, he is a mass murdering monster and was all along), it was always about him coming to accept what he is and what he had done. In his finer hours he could see himself as what he wished he was, he could see his kingslaying not as merely seeing which side would win and not wanting to turn on his father, not as self-interest, but as being "for the people". In his darker hours he could see the same acts a different way, he could see that he also had a selfish motive, even his "noblest" act was tainted by disloyalty and backstabbing. I quite liked that the darker hours, which in real life we often refer to as soul-searching in the depths of night, was actually delivered in the depths of night.

Real life is also full of people who are divided. Great philanthropists who bully all around them, cheat on their wives, separate themselves from the public. In Britain we have monuments of "great men" who enslaved in Africa while providing money for the education of the poor at home.

Jaime is a monster, he's right. But he's also a man. He's a monster in a realistic way, he did hateful things for selfish reasons, not because he's a cartoon villain who worships evil and wants evil done for evil's sake (as if there is such a thing). Ultimately his baser instincts won out. In the books it could go the other way, but he'll always be both. It will remain true that he doesn't actually *like* ordinary people or peasants.

Does anyone know why they decided to finish it at season 8? It seems strange given how rushed they've been to fit everything in. Usually successful American shows have the opposite problem of dragging it out for too long. But it seems like this final season would have been much better if it had 2 seasons to develop.

I believe I've read HBO offered them 10 more episodes and they declined. So I would assume some combination of the producers and actors wanting to move on.

My issue with Jamie wasn’t that line. I actually interpretated that line like Purplerat did above.

My issue is that he went back to Cersei. Book Jamie is clearly moving past Cersei getting bothered by the rumors that she has multiple lovers. Show Jamie has gone through that, and even culminates his feelings for Brienne. But then lol jk?

Like it’s frustrating. Maybe it is realistic in the form of back sliding characters. But it’s still not a fulfilling end to the character that I e greatly enjoy watching his transformation.

About the line, though. I went back and looked at his delivery, tone of voice and facial expression, just entertaining the idea that he was trying to pull the wool over Tyrion's eyes, to push him away or whatever. I can't say I really buy it. Why would he think he could bullshit Tyrion with this, when (even if Tyrion didn't know him better than most, which he surely does - see the touching scene they have moments later) a couple episodes ago they were both at Winterfell (somewhere Jamie didn't have to be), where Tyrion saw the better side to him. When he says he doesn't care about people, Tyrion knows better, and Jamie must know that Tyrion knows better.

Subverting expectation, common "character arc" formats and eschewing the worn path has always been what both show and book have always been about (in fact there were a fair number of criticisms of the show when it *stopped* doing that as it ran out of source material). I remember nothing in the books that was clear-cut on the front of Jaime moving past Cersei.

Jaime never says that he was kidding about Brienne, or that his feelings weren't real. He's torn. And ultimately one side wins out. He sides with the living over the dead, but he sides with Cersei over Brienne.

It was rushed, like the whole season has been, and not flawlessly executed, but the bones of a decent idea, in-line with characterisation are there. I'm fully expecting more subversion and more "disappointment" from next week's episode. And to be honest, since I became jaded some years ago and my expectation for the show changed, I've found my enjoyment on a new (admittedly lower) level has been restored, not quite to the highs of season 1, but past the lows of season 5 (or wherever exactly it was, I forget).

I did find this comment in my search of Jaime discussions of yesteryear, which I think now bears repeating:

virphen wrote:Re Jamie though:
He is still threatening to deliver babies via trebuchet!

I think the "arc of redemption" in the books is illusory. More a journey towards greater self-awareness. But we'll see.

I don’t think any of the characters are virtuous. But I’ve loved Jaime realizing his potential was hindered by Cersei and the Lannister name in Book 4 we see this really clearly when he starts taking his duty as Kingsguard seriously after his father’s death. Him being expelled from King’s Landing by Cersei drives a key wedge between them.

It’s not subverting expectations. It’s just plain disappointing and in my opinion lame to show Jaime just backslide.

Indeed. I now wish they'd had him die fighting the dead, after this cracking scene:



"I charge you to defend the innocent. Arise Brienne of Tarth, a knight of the seven kingdoms."

It still would've subverted expectations (everyone expected him to survive, to be there when Cersei died, albeit probably killing her).

You can make a character do anything, providing you give them the right motivation. Jamie really needed more dialog and screen time to show that he's tried everything and yet that's what he is, Cersei's lap dog. He went north to die, he didn't. Tried to love another woman, couldn't. And when it came to it, couldn't let his sister/wife die alone and returned to her. His is not an arc of redemption but tragedy. Exactly the same beats and plot points, but a couple of good scenes could have actually sold that. Jamie has been dead since Danny burned the wagon train. That's not necessarily what I got from the show, but that's how I would have written it given the same plot to work with.

It's the Hound's arc I felt was thrown away. Not that the conclusion didn't feel fitting or epic, I would have had him go with Arya. Then dig the Mountain's still moving corpse out the rubble and finish him off in the final episode. Perhaps that's me searching for a happy ending for him.

purplerat wrote:

Animavore wrote:

IMG-3007dfa49372b50247853e543484e768-V.jpg

looks like the same fake hand to me.

It’s a blue hand!!!

purplerat wrote:

Animavore wrote:

IMG-3007dfa49372b50247853e543484e768-V.jpg

looks like the same fake hand to me.

It’s a blue hand!!!

felltoearth wrote:

purplerat wrote:

Animavore wrote:

IMG-3007dfa49372b50247853e543484e768-V.jpg

looks like the same fake hand to me.

It’s a blue hand!!!

I did eventually see a zoomed in image and ya it's definitely not the fake hand, but it's also apparently not from the show. Supposedly it's a production shot that was made available by HBO but was not used in the show.

electricwhiteboy wrote:You can make a character do anything, providing you give them the right motivation.

True though I would say motivation comes from the character and isn’t given. I can think of no better example of this than Breaking Bad. Great video here about the writing. Motivation and “making a character do something” is discussed around the 7m mark.

My feelings on the Hound's arc.

felltoearth wrote:

electricwhiteboy wrote:You can make a character do anything, providing you give them the right motivation.

True though I would say motivation comes from the character and isn’t given. I can think of no better example of this than Breaking Bad. Great video here about the writing. Motivation and “making a character do something” is discussed around the 7m mark.

The writers for Breaking Bad are very good pantsers.

felltoearth wrote:

electricwhiteboy wrote:You can make a character do anything, providing you give them the right motivation.

True though I would say motivation comes from the character and isn’t given. I can think of no better example of this than Breaking Bad. Great video here about the writing. Motivation and “making a character do something” is discussed around the 7m mark.

Absolutely. What I'm describing is backwards from how good writing tends to happen. It's unwise to write backwards from an ending and try to shape the characters to fit. I'm making the assumption Martin has given D and D the bullet points to the end status of the game. It's entirely possible it's still work in progress as far as the book goes, or that WAS the broad strokes ending. Jamie killing Euron to stop him blowing the Dragonhorn, or from becoming some sort of eldritch God is going to be the book ending, assuming broad strokes being similar. That would hugely change the motivation of that fight.

Continuing from my last post spoiler. I think the book ending will be hugely different because Euron will be hugely different. Book theory spoilers. Euron possibly has a way to control Dragons with the Dragonhorn. The burning of Kings Landing by a Dragon battle and Danny driven mad in the process, is how I see a book ending going based on broad strokes being similar.

I'm not sure that an extra ten episodes would have necessarily helped. It's possible the baby has been thrown out with the bathwater by simplifying just too much already. The Prince That Was Promised arc seems to have been massively pruned, as was The Three Eyed Raven. It's possible that the choice was made some of that stuff just couldn't be reasonably info dumped at this stage. What we have could be the end game, but the book has some more elegant moves that just couldn't be made because it would have meant a lore dump that take things away from the characters we know for whole episodes. It's possible just too much had already been stripped out to get the book ending to work. What we have is joining the dots with just too many dots missing to reasonably sketch in without being inside Brans head for half the series. My guess is the prequel series is planned to expand on the meaning, but who knows how good a job that can do of the hatchet approach that's been taken to the tv ending.