still very much white supremacist dreams of the master race

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Re: still very much white supremacist dreams of the master race

#61  Postby arugula2 » Nov 22, 2019 3:58 am

Thommo wrote:ETA: There is one detail I omitted to mention and perhaps should have. There is a distinction between a sociological commentary (or an attempt at one) which critiques the audience of a particular genre as infantile (and hence as having worrying implications) and a literary commentary which critiques a particular genre (or a number of works within one) as infantile. Only one of those two things is amenable to evaluation rather than being strictly opinion, and clearly some comments have fallen on either side of this divide.

Alan Moore's opinions clearly fall on the side of critiquing an audience rather than a genre, and he's expressed them in numerous places over the years, e.g. https://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/ ... s-watchmen.

I’ve never noticed this guy until today - other than having read The Watchmen a few years ago, which was captivating. I don’t have an impression of the value of his comments yet. Thanks for the link.
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Re: still very much white supremacist dreams of the master race

#62  Postby Thommo » Nov 22, 2019 4:01 am

He's clearly an extremely talented writer, the question is what that means for what is essentially off the cuff social comment I suppose. He's pretty weird by all accounts and somewhat misanthropic, so I wouldn't personally be inclined to take his talent in one area as a substitute for legwork in another.
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Re: still very much white supremacist dreams of the master race

#63  Postby I'm With Stupid » Nov 22, 2019 4:55 am

Animavore wrote:I'm not going to fault anyone for liking what they like but Moore's not entirely wrong in one regard in that a line can be drawn from comic book, movie, and gamers and this toxic culture of far right, knee-jerk reactionists, the likes of which revenge vote for Trump, in response to their beloved franchises diversifying.

I'm not even joking here. From when the ball started rolling with an all-female Ghostbusters right up to the recent announcement of a female Thor there has been an incessant pouring of grieving white men clogging up the comment sections as a backlash to 'woke' culture. And in those comments you will see 'This is why we're voting Trump', 'This is why Trump won', 'This is why Trump's gonna win in 2020'. Literally a bloc of Trump supporters who are terrified of losing their privileged status as white males voting for an insecure, disrespectful, destructive, emotionally immature, trashy bully like they are (or wish they were) as a fuck you to society stemming from the culture of grown white men who take kids' things seriously. They even railed against the new depiction of She-Ra as an almost Tomboy rather than an unrealistic female seemingly created to titilate young boys. This is a show for little girls! And these emotionally stunted manbabies are allowed to vote?

Don't forget the latest Star Wars. Fucking hell what a joke that reaction was. Bullying an Asian woman off Twitter because they didn't like her character in the film.

But yeah, I can't speak for most of the Marvel films because I haven't seen them, but mainstream Hollywood films have always had a fairly right wing outlook. The people in Hollywood tend to be quite left wing, but if you look at things like homosexuality, it just simply isn't represented in the majority of films, because they're very conservative from a business point of view. The fact that a black superhero was considered a talking point in 2017 tells you how far behind the times they are. But the overwhelming message of a big chunk of Hollywood films is that violence is the way to solve things. They almost all subscribe to the "good guy with a gun" narrative, probably not out of some conscious effort to create neo-con propaganda, just because it makes an exciting action film.

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Re: still very much white supremacist dreams of the master race

#64  Postby I'm With Stupid » Nov 22, 2019 5:03 am

Matt_B wrote:Most people want escapism from their entertainment, and arguably they need it too given the state of the world.

There's room too for art that challenges our assumptions and makes us think about real issues the world faces, but let's not kid ourselves that it's ever been much more than a niche market.

I suppose the problem comes from people who consume the former but mistakenly think it's the latter, and that you really can solve extremely complex issues quickly and simply, and often with little more than brute force. Still, I guess there'd be people who think that regardless of what they watch and read.

Did you see the reaction from these man-babies when Scorsese said that these Marvel films "aren't cinema?"
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Re: still very much white supremacist dreams of the master race

#65  Postby Ironclad » Nov 22, 2019 11:43 am

Marvel had a black actor as the lead in a very successful and popular superhero movie over 20 years ago. There was no god damn wait, fuck sake. It was so popular a trilogy was made. AND it is being remade.
Whoever said "it's about time" is a silly cunt.
There WERE whinings about the Black Panther movie, which was highly anticipated, and made a barrel of dollarquids. The studio hired a black director, had a mostly black cast - well done - but it was rubbish. Confused CGI, a backstory that grated what was set in motion in the Captain America movie before it, and the lead player had a starkly different personality. And it was rubbish, again.
These comics were written approximately 50 years ago, by, mostly, white European males. For youngsters. It shouldn't be terribly surprising that the comic book cast is a bit limited in diversity, but it is there of one bothers to look first before griping. Also, there is all of human history to get through yet, perhaps the purple-haired placard wavers could learn to sketch and create their own implausible superheroes and heroines and cease crying (lying?) over what has been drawn. You don't need to change popular characters for the 'sake' of diversity, they are already there; or you can grab a pencil and make your own! (I mean them, not you, dear reader)
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Re: still very much white supremacist dreams of the master race

#66  Postby Spinozasgalt » Nov 22, 2019 12:10 pm

I don't watch any of these films. All I know is what I pick up from Tumblr. Thor is a friend to the lesbians.
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He's also a bottom despite claims to the contrary.
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And Valkyrie is a top, as you can see.
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Re: still very much white supremacist dreams of the master race

#67  Postby Ironclad » Nov 22, 2019 12:11 pm

Regarding homosexually in the movies, is it important to a story that a character is overt in their sexuality? Why? Are we sure Batman isn't gay? He's bad with girls, uses a lot of eyeliner, is wealthier than average and keeps his best outfits - for nights on the town - in a hidden closet..
A Premier League football player was asked, on live TV a few years ago, given that there should be many gay football players on the pitch each weekend, how many did he know and why were they not 'coming out'. He appeared to answer frankly, IIRC - "I don't know any and it's never discussed, we go to work, train, then go home to our families. There may be a few, there may be none, but it doesn't appear to be important" - something like that.
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Re: still very much white supremacist dreams of the master race

#68  Postby Spinozasgalt » Nov 22, 2019 12:30 pm

Ironclad wrote:Regarding homosexually in the movies, is it important to a story that a character is overt in their sexuality?

I resent the implication that a character's homosexuality has to be important to the story to be included. Heterosexuality isn't given that same condition. I doubt most of what's in these movies is important to the story being told.

Look, the choice is simple. Make Captain Marvel a lesbian with a girlfriend or be destroyed.
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Re: still very much white supremacist dreams of the master race

#69  Postby Ironclad » Nov 22, 2019 12:57 pm

Oh please, there's no need for threats, I mean have you seen her haircut! She is clearly one of them. Or a K Pop groupie, if there is a difference.
Plus, and you may need to refer to the last movie so you know I'm not mental, she has a pussy that can (and has) swallow the universe!
I don't think she has a girlfriend. I think she likes Batman. Pity.
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Re: still very much white supremacist dreams of the master race

#70  Postby Ironclad » Nov 22, 2019 12:57 pm

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Re: still very much white supremacist dreams of the master race

#71  Postby The_Metatron » Nov 22, 2019 3:47 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
aufbahrung wrote:Superheroes = Deus ex machina



Not what deus ex machina means.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machina

Deus ex machina (/ˌdeɪəs ɛks ˈmækɪnə, - ˈmɑːk-/ DAY-əs ex-MA(H)K-in-ə,[1] Latin: [ˈdɛ.ʊs ɛks ˈmaːkʰɪnaː]; plural: dei ex machina; English ‘god from the machine’) is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem in a story is suddenly and abruptly resolved by an unexpected and seemingly unlikely occurrence, typically so much as to seem contrived.


A superhero movie is about a superhero, therefore the superhero is not a plot device used to solve a problem introduced by the writer which he or she is struggling to solve.

In fact, superhero movies establish the remit of a superhero's powers early, then have the superheros play with those powers throughout the 'Fun & Games' of Act 2a, meaning those powers and their limitations are clearly set up.

Tolkien’s eagles.


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Re: still very much white supremacist dreams of the master race

#72  Postby purplerat » Nov 22, 2019 4:00 pm

Ironclad wrote:Regarding homosexually in the movies, is it important to a story that a character is overt in their sexuality? Why?

Why is that question posed "regarding homosexuality"? I'd estimate that 9/10 non-romance movies have an overt romantic subplot, most of which really aren't important to the main story. So why do only the homosexual ones rile people up?

Using the Batman example, most Batman movies do include a female love interest completely unnecessary to the rest of the plot. So why should it bother anybody if a different Batman movie mixed it up and had him screwing around with Robin?
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Re: still very much white supremacist dreams of the master race

#73  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 22, 2019 4:07 pm

Tolkien's eagles are actually worse than deus ex machina; they're a gaping great plot-hole considering they could have just flown Frodo to Mount Doom, a diversionary battle could then have kept the Eye of Sauron busy, and Frodo could've been home in the Shire just in time for elevenses!

I think Tolkien just didn't notice the hole, which is understandable given the depth and breadth of his work, but it's a shame as there are plenty of ways to have 'plugged' this hole.
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Re: still very much white supremacist dreams of the master race

#74  Postby The_Metatron » Nov 22, 2019 4:11 pm

Spearthrower wrote:Tolkien's eagles are actually worse than deus ex machina; they're a gaping great plot-hole considering they could have just flown Frodo to Mount Doom, a diversionary battle could then have kept the Eye of Sauron busy, and Frodo could've been home in the Shire just in time for elevenses!

I think Tolkien just didn't notice the hole, which is understandable given the depth and breadth of his work, but it's a shame as there are plenty of ways to have 'plugged' this hole.

Who am I to criticize fuckin’ Tolkien?

But, I always thought those eagles were cheap.


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Re: still very much white supremacist dreams of the master race

#75  Postby I'm With Stupid » Nov 22, 2019 4:22 pm

Ironclad wrote:Marvel had a black actor as the lead in a very successful and popular superhero movie over 20 years ago. There was no god damn wait, fuck sake. It was so popular a trilogy was made. AND it is being remade.
Whoever said "it's about time" is a silly cunt.

Yeah, but that was before the internet was popular so it doesn't count. See also the "first black British artist to headline Glastonbury" this year until everyone pointed to Skunk Anansie back in 1999, when it wasn't even considered noteworthy.
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Re: still very much white supremacist dreams of the master race

#76  Postby I'm With Stupid » Nov 22, 2019 4:40 pm

Spinozasgalt wrote:
Ironclad wrote:Regarding homosexually in the movies, is it important to a story that a character is overt in their sexuality?

I resent the implication that a character's homosexuality has to be important to the story to be included. Heterosexuality isn't given that same condition. I doubt most of what's in these movies is important to the story being told.

Indeed. I always think of I, Daniel Blake where the case worker in the appeal scene just happens to be in a wheelchair. It's never remarked upon and not relevant to the plot, but just increases representation of disabled people as a normal part of society. There's a similar character in The Office in a wheelchair, and to be fair, they do have the occasional joke that they could only do with that character, but most of the time, she's just another character. Which of course isn't to say you don't also need films that actually address the issues associated with being part of an oppressed group too. But the vast majority of white, male characters in mainstream films could have their race, gender, sexuality, etc changed without any difference in the plot (which is possibly a sign of bad writing, but there you go).
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Re: still very much white supremacist dreams of the master race

#77  Postby Thommo » Nov 22, 2019 7:00 pm

purplerat wrote:Why is that question posed "regarding homosexuality"? I'd estimate that 9/10 non-romance movies have an overt romantic subplot, most of which really aren't important to the main story. So why do only the homosexual ones rile people up?

Using the Batman example, most Batman movies do include a female love interest completely unnecessary to the rest of the plot. So why should it bother anybody if a different Batman movie mixed it up and had him screwing around with Robin?


Whilst I take the general point (and honestly have the impression this does happen now, to some extent, although probably disproportional underrepresentation), I have to say that specific - an adoptive father and son - is definitely not the one to go for to improve representation.

Mind you, personally I'd be perfectly happy if unnecessary romantic subplots just went the way of the dodo anyway, I don't actually like them. You'll probably find that changing characterisations from one depiction to the next picks up legitimate criticism as well, if it's not individual characters who have the change made on a permanent basis too.
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Re: still very much white supremacist dreams of the master race

#78  Postby Ironclad » Nov 22, 2019 8:50 pm

purplerat wrote: why should it bother anybody if a different Batman movie mixed it up and had him screwing around with Robin?


That story has been told. In a graphic novel (so, for children) and before the internet (so it doesn't count).
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Re: still very much white supremacist dreams of the master race

#79  Postby arugula2 » Nov 23, 2019 9:40 am

Some of it may be rooted in modern western attitudes about authenticity in fidelity. In oral traditions, it's more often the story is expected to change with each telling, or with each storyteller or performance. Used to be broadly true of literary traditions, too, I think - especially in ancient times. I can't think of an obvious reason why modern western attitudes about this are what they are, or even to what extent they are. Shall we blame the Puritans and those other settlers of their time? Conservatism is fundamentally about resisting change. And habits survive even when they become unmoored from their origins. There's a weird intersection of different strains of counter-culture backlash that I find too compelling to ignore. I haven't seen a coherent argument against it. It isn't dissolving for me yet.

Also, we're talking about people during impressionable periods in their lives. If they adopt subliminal messages about "proper" hierarchies, but then insist they only want fidelity to a story... how the fuck are you and I supposed to untangle that? We can't. We have to assume certain things about the influence of the zeitgeist. And the zeitgeist is one in which white (cis, hetero) men dominate in our stories. That's just how it is for now. Motives can't be separated. Run a thought experiment in which that worldview changes within a few generations, in which the imagery and the propaganda change. What kind of reaction do you expect? Is it something like we see now? I haven't come across a thoughtful, persuasive argument to the contrary, one that takes the broad view of history with the aim to explain trends.

There's another angle which maybe westerners rarely are confronted with, which is that, even today, what with the world becoming super-connected, the flow of propaganda is largely unidirectional. One language dies every few days because its last speakers die, and they take their stories with them. Run another thought experiment: whose stories are likely going to be the last to die? I'm mentioning it because I'm sure that this status in the flow of information feeds into a sense of entitlement. These young (mostly) boys who later become angry redditors banding together against SJWs aren't just growing up thinking they have the "correct" stories - they're obviously growing up thinking these are the only stories on earth, or at least the only ones they need pay attention to or love. I find that heartbreaking. (By stories, I don't mean superhero stories, that's just a microcosm.)

:deadhorse:

Anyway, Thommo, I finally read the Moore article. His views about depictions of rape in pop culture are compelling, sensible even. Something also about the "right" of non-black writers to write about the black experience - and he applies it to other similar complaints. Also sensible, imo. I'm not sure he gets around to fleshing out some of his other views. Maybe I need to keep reading.
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Re: still very much white supremacist dreams of the master race

#80  Postby Thommo » Nov 23, 2019 10:11 am

That's interesting. I have to admit those weren't the details from the article I was drawing attention towards. Whilst your comments are most welcome I was only using it as an illustration of how he's clearly critical of an audience, not just genre conventions.

I can't say I found the account he presented there all that compelling, with what appears to be sleight of hand at the centre of both claims*. It is however quite possible his view on those two points is considerably more developed than could ever come across in a newspaper article covering several topics. Obviously there's no problem at all with diverging views here.

To a degree I think it's moot as far as I'm concerned, since what he does is legal, and I support that legality regardless of his view, and it would seem he has no particular difficulty finding a publisher. I'm not a victim of rape or racism who might have more direct experiences relating to the objections to use of particular imagery for entertainment.

*In particular I found it extremely hard to credit that he genuinely thinks objections to depicting gollywogs apply equally to any and all black characters:
And he rebutted the suggestion that it was “not the place of two white men to try to ‘reclaim’ a character like the golliwogg”, telling Ó Méalóid that this idea “would appear to be predicated upon an assumption that no author or artist should presume to use characters who are of a different race to themselves”.


I probably was also suspicious of comparing the moral weight of rape to that of murder but taking no account of the role of violence in conflict, which is central to narrative. It is, for example, difficult to imagine a story in which a hero uses rape to overcome an adversary while remaining a hero.
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