The Walking Thread

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Re: The Walking Thread

#41  Postby Mike_L » Apr 05, 2016 10:23 am

Bathos where there should have been pathos.
As others have pointed out, the TV series is slow (compared to the comic-book) and crammed with filler. After being strung along for such a long, slow ride (the last four episodes were especially excruciating) we should've had a dramatic payoff, not a low-altitude cliffhanger.
On the plus side...
The sudden humbling of the group was well done. Perhaps they were simply following the lead of the comic, but the writers effectively conveyed the growing cockiness of Rick ("Tell 'em [the Saviors] to wait for me") and his clan, and the subsequent reality check in which they literally end up on their knees.

In the meantime, for those who are seriously zombie-addicted, the second season of the spin-off starts this Sunday...

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Re: The Walking Thread

#42  Postby Sendraks » Apr 05, 2016 11:11 am

chairman bill wrote:You'd think the zombie apocalypse would be bad enough, but the writers seem compelled to add a huge dose of personal stupidity to most characters. They just do stupid things. Some of those stupid things are so stupid, really, really stupid people would see just how stupid they are & wouldn't do them. Some characters just deserve to get eaten.


It is one of the reasons why I have struggled with the series and am, at present, bogged down in season 2 unwilling to make any progress.

To an extent the stupidity is slightly forgivable in the very, very early part of the first episode, where we are expected to buy into the conceit that this is an alternative reality where the concept of a zombie is utterly unknown. An idea which I think is more credibility stretching than the actual existence of zombies in the first place.

But, after the initial encounters with zombies, the characters continue to behave in a manner entirely inconsistent with people living in a world infested with zombies. Egg's ride into town in the first season on horseback, whilst all cinematic and fo-shizzle, is not carried out with the sort of caution one would expect from someone who has already encountered a lot of zombies and had people impress on him the risks of zombie attack. I'm not sure what it was Egg was expecting when he rode into town but, it didn't seem as if zombies were at the top of his worry list. Egg's behaviour doesn't seem plausible to me. Not in This Life.
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Re: The Walking Thread

#43  Postby purplerat » Apr 05, 2016 8:39 pm

Sendraks wrote:
chairman bill wrote:You'd think the zombie apocalypse would be bad enough, but the writers seem compelled to add a huge dose of personal stupidity to most characters. They just do stupid things. Some of those stupid things are so stupid, really, really stupid people would see just how stupid they are & wouldn't do them. Some characters just deserve to get eaten.


It is one of the reasons why I have struggled with the series and am, at present, bogged down in season 2 unwilling to make any progress.

To an extent the stupidity is slightly forgivable in the very, very early part of the first episode, where we are expected to buy into the conceit that this is an alternative reality where the concept of a zombie is utterly unknown. An idea which I think is more credibility stretching than the actual existence of zombies in the first place.

But, after the initial encounters with zombies, the characters continue to behave in a manner entirely inconsistent with people living in a world infested with zombies. Egg's ride into town in the first season on horseback, whilst all cinematic and fo-shizzle, is not carried out with the sort of caution one would expect from someone who has already encountered a lot of zombies and had people impress on him the risks of zombie attack. I'm not sure what it was Egg was expecting when he rode into town but, it didn't seem as if zombies were at the top of his worry list. Egg's behaviour doesn't seem plausible to me. Not in This Life.

Here's my take on the extra stupidity; people are stupid. Not everybody but a lot, maybe most, are pretty stupid. We are social animals so a lot of the way we act is based on social interactions and social queues, not necessarily intellect. Sometimes this gets described as "street smarts" where a person who's not very intellectual or even intelligent gets by or even excels because they function highly within the social structure.

But in the world of TWD that social structure is fucked. So a lot of people are fucked in that they really don't know how to behave or make smart decisions without a functioning society around them. Simply think about how many people we all know in real life who just do what society tells them to do without really thinking about whether it's a good idea or not. They just do it because it's what everybody else does and it seems to work out more times than not. Take that away and who knows what the hell they'll do?

Rick is a perfect example. Here's a guy who was a cop, a job that doesn't require much intellect but a high degree of social functionality. In TWD that somewhat works out for him as a leader of a group of survivors but it also leads him to doing some really dumb shit. On the other hand we have Eugene who is highly intellectual and but socially very inept. He's calculating and while I don't think they've shown it as much on the show he's one of the most invaluable characters in the long term because he actually thinks. Interestingly I would also put Negan on that side with Eugene but for very different reasons.
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Re: The Walking Thread

#44  Postby Mac_Guffin » Apr 05, 2016 9:02 pm

chairman bill wrote:You'd think the zombie apocalypse would be bad enough, but the writers seem compelled to add a huge dose of personal stupidity to most characters. They just do stupid things. Some of those stupid things are so stupid, really, really stupid people would see just how stupid they are & wouldn't do them. Some characters just deserve to get eaten.


And I know I sound like a broken record, but most of those stupid things aren't in the source material. The show has a perfectly good story to adapt, but they feel like they need to change things when they don't really need to. This is why Fear the Walking Dead sucks even more. There's no comic it's based on. It's what happens when AMC's writers are left to their own devices.
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Re: The Walking Thread

#45  Postby purplerat » Apr 05, 2016 9:12 pm

Mac_Guffin wrote:
chairman bill wrote:You'd think the zombie apocalypse would be bad enough, but the writers seem compelled to add a huge dose of personal stupidity to most characters. They just do stupid things. Some of those stupid things are so stupid, really, really stupid people would see just how stupid they are & wouldn't do them. Some characters just deserve to get eaten.


And I know I sound like a broken record, but most of those stupid things aren't in the source material. The show has a perfectly good story to adapt, but they feel like they need to change things when they don't really need to. This is why Fear the Walking Dead sucks even more. There's no comic it's based on. It's what happens when AMC's writers are left to their own devices.

I disagree that they don't need to change anything. Comics and TV shows are two completely different mediums. You can't just straight adapt from a comic book to a TV show. A perfect example Kirkman has discussed is Rick losing his hand. It's an easy thing to get around in a comic book but not so much in a TV show.

Another issue is casting. Where comic book characters are in effect "played" by a single person it's easier to manipulate who fans perceive different characters. With live actors it's different. Look at Carol vs Andrea in each. I have no clue how the decisions for the different directions of each in the show as opposed to the comics came to be but it's not at all hard to imagine that Melissa McBride's performance and reception compared to Laurie Holden's may have influenced those decisions.

FWIW, I agree about the spin off, but I disagree that having the original show based on but not beholden to the comics is a bad thing.
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Re: The Walking Thread

#46  Postby Mac_Guffin » Apr 05, 2016 9:58 pm

I think changes are fine or even needed sometimes, but don't fix what isn't broke. I guess I should've clarified that.

Funny you bring up Carol and Andrea. They are perfect examples of the show doing changes right and the show doing changes wrong, respectively. Carol is way better developed in the show. She's more interesting and more badass. She dies via suicide by zombie and is an all around a weak character in the comic in both writing and characterization. Andrea went from sharpshooter who's cool, no nonsense, and intelligent to the bumbling mess of a character show Andrea was. They killed her off early too.
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Re: The Walking Thread

#47  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Apr 05, 2016 11:26 pm

chairman bill wrote:You'd think the zombie apocalypse would be bad enough, but the writers seem compelled to add a huge dose of personal stupidity to most characters. They just do stupid things. Some of those stupid things are so stupid, really, really stupid people would see just how stupid they are & wouldn't do them. Some characters just deserve to get eaten.


That's the thing - the zombies haven't been an issue since the first season unless the characters behave stupidly. Otherwise, the zombies are just setting.
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Re: The Walking Thread

#48  Postby Mac_Guffin » Apr 06, 2016 3:35 am

I think the fact that the zombies have become a secondary threat is great. It's bound to happen.
Plus, the zombies were always meant to be a MacGuffin. It's about the characters, but that doesn't excuse the bad writing in the show.
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Re: The Walking Thread

#49  Postby Spinozasgalt » Apr 06, 2016 8:20 am

I quite liked the show's version of Andrea and Holden's way of playing her. I think the showrunners just kept exploiting the character through parts of season 2 and 3 rather than write her to the strengths that were there. And I think they do that with a lot of characters.

A lot of it comes across as indecision. The creators aren't sure if the characters should be regular and grounded people confronting something horrible or badass fighters larger than life. The comic comparison is similar and probably related: the showrunners won't stick completely to the comics, but neither will they let the show move away from them based on what grows out of the drama. So we're stuck with what appear to be badass warriors who turn quite unpredictably into regular and error-prone people, and a show that will prune away the good and suggestive drama it's already grown to keep the path to certain iconic comic landmarks clear.
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Re: The Walking Thread

#50  Postby Sendraks » Apr 06, 2016 10:03 am

Rachel Bronwyn wrote:That's the thing - the zombies haven't been an issue since the first season unless the characters behave stupidly. Otherwise, the zombies are just setting.


This chimes entirely with how I view the series as far as I've got into season 2.
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Re: The Walking Thread

#51  Postby ED209 » Apr 06, 2016 10:32 am

It's not that they are stupid with regards to zombies, they are stupid with regards to other survivors that they are supposedly at war with - walking around in the open, talking noisily, not wearing camo or protective gear, paying no attention to their surroundings, blocking the road by just standing in the middle of it in a group, driving around in that RV in broad daylight and so on.

Even when they were sneaking around the outpost killing all the saviours in their sleep, the two on point had a silenced SMG and a shotgun. If they see someone and need to shoot, are they trying to be quiet or not? Have they even talked about it?
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Re: The Walking Thread

#52  Postby Sendraks » Apr 06, 2016 10:41 am

ED209 wrote:Even when they were sneaking around the outpost killing all the saviours in their sleep, the two on point had a silenced SMG and a shotgun. If they see someone and need to shoot, are they trying to be quiet or not? Have they even talked about it?


It is common place in TV and film to absolutely sacrifice military tactical accuracy of any sort, or even sensible cautious human behaviour, in favour of a narrative that engages a majority audience which is largely unquestioning of such things.

The more you know the harder it can be to accept such errors on film. The book "Watching war movies with my Dad" by Al Murray, I found to be a highly entertaining and educational account of how cinema and TV gets things wrong in respect of the military. Nothing goes unscathed.
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Re: The Walking Thread

#53  Postby ED209 » Apr 06, 2016 10:58 am

Rick and morgan walk right across a meadow in the open, chatting away. They could just as easily have been creeping along the hedge bordering the field, having the same dialogue to further the narrative. But it's OK though because morgan alertly raises his stick from time to time, to ward off any would-be snipers :scratch:

It's like they almost were playing for laughs when the first saviour roadblock stops the RV, and darryl wipes them all out with a single RPG shot out of the blue, leaving just smouldering boots behind. Or when carol kills the truckload with the machine pistol that wasn't actually up her sleeve, but whatever. So the audience is aware of this kind of thing, and it's mystifying why none of the characters are.
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Re: The Walking Thread

#54  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Apr 06, 2016 11:00 am

Rachel Bronwyn wrote:
chairman bill wrote:You'd think the zombie apocalypse would be bad enough, but the writers seem compelled to add a huge dose of personal stupidity to most characters. They just do stupid things. Some of those stupid things are so stupid, really, really stupid people would see just how stupid they are & wouldn't do them. Some characters just deserve to get eaten.


That's the thing - the zombies haven't been an issue since the first season unless the characters behave stupidly. Otherwise, the zombies are just setting.

Nor are we any closer to finding out about the origins of the zombies, or a possible cure/end.
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Re: The Walking Thread

#55  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Apr 06, 2016 11:20 am

That's not relevant to the show anymore. Maybe they'll bring it back. The show has gone so far off that track though and is entirely survivalist now. I can't see it lasting long enough to get back onto that "cure" storyline. Maybe it will. I don't know.

But, yeah, the zombies are comparable to extreme weather or wildlife, not characters.
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Re: The Walking Thread

#56  Postby Sendraks » Apr 06, 2016 11:24 am

It isn't a necessary for the story that a cure exist or that there be an "end" to the zombie problem beyond whatever conclusion the writers want there to be. When you're entertaining the concept of zombies, you've thrown science out of the window anyway, so you've no reason to write in anything that suggests there be a cure or that the zombies will ever "stop" unless there is a profound cranial intervention.

As Rachel has said, the story isn't about the zombies anymore. The story is about what people do in a world where zombies are a reality that isn't going to go away anymore.
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Re: The Walking Thread

#57  Postby purplerat » Apr 06, 2016 3:23 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Rachel Bronwyn wrote:
chairman bill wrote:You'd think the zombie apocalypse would be bad enough, but the writers seem compelled to add a huge dose of personal stupidity to most characters. They just do stupid things. Some of those stupid things are so stupid, really, really stupid people would see just how stupid they are & wouldn't do them. Some characters just deserve to get eaten.


That's the thing - the zombies haven't been an issue since the first season unless the characters behave stupidly. Otherwise, the zombies are just setting.

Nor are we any closer to finding out about the origins of the zombies, or a possible cure/end.

If Kirkman is to be believed both of those are basically off the table and we're as likely to see origin/cure story lines as we are vampires or aliens being introduced.
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Re: The Walking Thread

#58  Postby Mac_Guffin » Apr 07, 2016 4:15 am

Kirkman makes it very clear that the zombies aren't supposed to be the focus, there won't be a cure, and there won't be an explanation. He said he has an explanation in mind, but it's boring as fuck, and he said you'd probably just be like, "... Oh."
I wouldn't really find it interesting, myself. I enjoy that the comic and show are character-centric... but the show sometimes dulls certain characters and dialogue to make everything more super serial [serious]. Why do shows and movies do this? Do people think it's cool to not have characters act realistically?
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Re: The Walking Thread

#59  Postby scott1328 » Apr 16, 2016 7:45 pm

I predict that if Norman Reedus' motorcycle does well enough in the ratings to be picked up for a second season, then Darryl will be the one that Negan killed. Otherwise, I predict Aaron.
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Re: The Walking Thread

#60  Postby Mike_L » Apr 16, 2016 8:13 pm

It's speculation of course, but this commentator makes a pretty good case for Abraham as the victim...

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