Designating intent in posting motivation

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Designating intent in posting motivation

#1  Postby Keep It Real » Mar 21, 2020 4:07 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
there is no way to prove intent.


Its just untrue.


ORLY? How can one prove intent on teh obscure internet forum?


It's happened, even on this obscure internet forum, and posters have been banned on that basis. When someone is banned for trolling, it's all about intent. What kind of proof do you want to establish? What kind of privilege is posting here? Get a grip.

Keep It Real wrote:People get it wrong ALL THE FUCKING TIME in my experience, thus my coining of the term "another psychic in our midst." Objectively determining dead-cert intent, without a "confession" to that effect, is point blank impossible, and basically people should bear that in mind before continually waving the shitty end of the stick in people's faces at the drop of a hat. I'm not talking specifically about accusations of trolling here, btw, just imputing dead-cert intent in general. 2c


Cito di Pense wrote:It's not necessary here to be dead certain, KIR. We're not trying to send to Mars a spacecraft project costing millions of bucks. It's money that matters, kiddo, including the time people not anything like you put into trying to get something right that can be said to have been gotten right.


Keep It Real wrote:True, no need to be dead certain, although, due to the fact that most imputations of intent round here are of the "character assassinating" variety a little more caution and condemnation of such imputations where the evidence is...shall we say...thin.


I've been banging on about this for years, coining the term "another psychic in our midst" as it appears to me all too often people think themselves psychic as they state as fact other posters' (invariably nefarious) motivations behind their comments. Spearthrower has said multiple times that I use the phrase inappropriately, so perhaps we'll start there:

Keep It Real wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:People get it wrong ALL THE FUCKING TIME in my experience, thus my coining of the term "another psychic in our midst."


Which you tend to use when nothing remotely relevant to reading minds or divining intent occurs.


Evidence? Can you pull in three such examples of my using the phrase in that fallacious manner?

Spearthrower wrote:Are you requesting that I prove to you that in your posts where you used the phrase "another psychic in our midst" that your usage of that phrase was not remotely relevant to reading minds or divining intents?

Explain to me why I would want to do that?


Yes that's exactly what I'm asking you to do, obviously. Why would you want to back up your extraordinary and insulting claim with evidence? I can't imagine :nono: :nono: :nono:
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Re: Designating intent in posting motivation

#2  Postby SafeAsMilk » Mar 21, 2020 4:30 pm

It isn't extraordinary at all, all anyone has to do is search for your inane little phrase and they'll see for themselves.

But besides that, what's with this stupid shit of you pretending your motivations aren't ridiculously easy to discern? I mean, you are the guy who was pretending you weren't Theorease even though it was incredibly obvious, right? Do you honestly think anything else you say isn't just as transparent? You may as well say "You've hit the nail on the head" every time you think of trotting out your idiotic phrase, you'd accomplish the same thing and at least you'd get points for being honest.
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Re: Designating intent in posting motivation

#3  Postby tuco » Mar 21, 2020 4:53 pm

To judge or guess intent of others is normal, we all do it, we are all psychics, sometimes better sometimes not so good and this is obvious.

Anyway, as it was pointed out by Cito, none argues the evidence you ask for is thin but how else could it be? In the end, to the mods, little does it matter whether let's say disruption - provoking emotional reactions (trolling for example) - is intentional or not. Its disruption and, well, there has been an argument with no end whether to ignore such disruptions or expel them. So far, those who are loudest here ask for the latter, and that is about it. There is no perfect justice, never been and do not look for it because it's impossible.

What is your issue Keep It Real here? I do not quite understand.
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Re: Designating intent in posting motivation

#4  Postby Spearthrower » Mar 21, 2020 7:04 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
Yes that's exactly what I'm asking you to do, obviously. Why would you want to back up your extraordinary and insulting claim with evidence? I can't imagine :nono: :nono: :nono:


1) Get over yourself.
2) Get over yourself.
3) Get over yourself.

Clear?

You're entirely unsurprisingly distorting everything to fuel another round of your internet drama.

There was nothing remotely insulting about it - perhaps squeak piteously if you want that pathos. Nor was it at all outlandish.

If I was seeking to hold forth an argument that you misuse 'another psychic in our midst' then I would happily evidence my claims. However, that is clearly not what I am fucking doing; no argument was made. Anyone who read the relevant threads would know exactly what I mean. The erroneous belief you appear to be labouring under is that I am looking to have you accept that you misused that phrase. I couldn't give two fucks, to be honest. I already pointed out that it would be totally fucking absurd to have "proving" something to you as the objective of your challenge. Go play silly buggers with yourself.

Now, if someone credible and uninvolved were to ask me because they hadn't seen the relevant threads, I'd happily oblige. But your request is predicated on surreal nonsense.


Anyway, if anyone needs advice on avoiding character assassinating designations of intent...

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/post2 ... l#p2738660

Spearthrower wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:True, no need to be dead certain, although, due to the fact that most imputations of intent round here are of the "character assassinating" variety a little more caution and condemnation of such imputations where the evidence is...shall we say...thin


Do you mean, as an example scenario, if someone were to claim that a member's a child-murderer? In that kind of scenario, which is obviously of the 'character assassinating variety', would you say a little caution might be in order, say... to establish the material facts, for example? Wouldn't you also thereby agree that robust condemnation of such imputations where the evidence was, shall we say, 'non-existent'... were thus not only more than justified but also a fine thing?
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Re: Designating intent in posting motivation

#5  Postby Spearthrower » Mar 21, 2020 7:13 pm

I've been banging on about this for years, coining the term "another psychic in our midst" as it appears to me all too often people think themselves psychic as they state as fact other posters' (invariably nefarious) motivations behind their comments. Spearthrower has said multiple times that I use the phrase inappropriately, so perhaps we'll start there:


This is a non-sequitur.

Your first sentence outlines your position regarding your creation of this thread - that people mistakenly assign motivations to others on flimsy grounds.

Your second sentence then says that I say you have misused a phrase.

So were you to establish that I was wrong in you having misused a phrase, it wouldn't actually support or contradict the contention made in the first sentence.

This is because the two parts have absolutely fuck all to do with each other.

So then the question becomes... why would Keep It Real feel the need to 'call me out', so to speak, to perform some task decreed by Keep It Real that would not generate anything substantive, but does generate the kind of internet drama that many people here have noticed Keep It Real seems to thrive in.

So finally, we can navigate our way back to the topic: one way to divine intent is via patterns of behavior and the recorded history of how those events occurred, who was involved with them, what the outcome was, etc.

We can also play philosophical ball here and say that if you aren't actually intending to generate another little round of your endless drama here on Rational Skepticism, you still give every appearance of intending to generate another little round of your endless drama here on Rational Skepticism.
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Re: Designating intent in posting motivation

#6  Postby Thommo » Mar 21, 2020 9:45 pm

I don't think you did coin the phrase "another psychic in our midst", by the way.
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Re: Designating intent in posting motivation

#7  Postby Keep It Real » Mar 22, 2020 3:39 pm

Virtually all these posts are focused entirely on ME and MY bla bla bla when it was intended to discuss an issue which has as much todo with me as anybody else. The hatred of me in those posts? It wears thin, and what's the point in posting proper topics like this if they immediately descends into narky vacuous worthless hatred shite. This forum is now worse than useless for me, as far as my commenting further goes. I'm gone.
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Re: Designating intent in posting motivation

#8  Postby Spearthrower » Mar 22, 2020 4:20 pm

Your post is focused on you, that's for sure.
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Re: Designating intent in posting motivation

#9  Postby Spearthrower » Mar 22, 2020 4:21 pm

Prediction confirmed:

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/post2 ... l#p2738661

Spearthrower wrote:No, you're going to spoon around, flounce a bit, say something shitty, then waltz off for a couple of days


The merry-go-round continues.

DRAAAAAAAMA!
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Re: Designating intent in posting motivation

#10  Postby Thommo » Mar 22, 2020 9:16 pm

Keep It Real wrote:Virtually all these posts are focused entirely on ME and MY bla bla bla when it was intended to discuss an issue which has as much todo with me as anybody else. The hatred of me in those posts? It wears thin, and what's the point in posting proper topics like this if they immediately descends into narky vacuous worthless hatred shite. This forum is now worse than useless for me, as far as my commenting further goes. I'm gone.


It's difficult to discern what the exact point of the OP is, I'm afraid. It basically consists of quotes from an ongoing disagreement between you and Spearthrower, plus the added claim that you coined the phrase "another psychic in our midst" to describe such disagreements.

Broadly speaking: I don't think you did coin that phrase and I don't think you need to be psychic to discern some information about somebody's intent in most situations. Sometimes intent is more clear than others, and it's often easier to read in real life where there are more social cues and body language, but a lot of it carries over to the internet, particularly where patterns of behaviour are on display over time. I will qualify that by saying that it is often unhelpful to discuss someone's intent, even if invited to do so, and it can just fan the flames of disagreement. Plus there is a non-negligible risk of being wrong about it which varies from circumstance to circumstance.

The situation someone described of spotting obvious trolls is one clear example that is covered by the FUA. Consider the recent membership of someone calling themselves "ProblemGlasses69". Problem glasses is a derogatory slang term invented to mock so-called Social Justice Warriors, 69 is a well known term for a particular sexual position. How much more context does one need to "divine" intent? It's written in black and white. Before they even wrote a word they had engaged in mockery with the intent to provoke a reaction.

Another example: How much intent can you divine in this post? I think my intent to state disagreement (with the inferred claim of not being able to know why anyone says anything on the internet) is clear, it's conveyed by the literal meaning of the words and tone of language. The words communicate something. Of course this also hints towards the limits of "divining" intent - clearly you feel that most posts prior (and possibly including) this one were made with the intent of getting at you, but other interpretations are possible (e.g. perhaps people just disagree with you strongly and have run thin on patience with this type of quasi-feedback thread over the ten-ish years of the forum's existence).
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Re: Designating intent in posting motivation

#11  Postby SafeAsMilk » Mar 22, 2020 9:33 pm

Keep It Real wrote:Virtually all these posts are focused entirely on ME and MY bla bla bla when it was intended to discuss an issue which has as much todo with me as anybody else. The hatred of me in those posts? It wears thin, and what's the point in posting proper topics like this if they immediately descends into narky vacuous worthless hatred shite.

Because it isn't a proper topic, it's just you trying to pretend there's no way to tell what motivations are when that's obviously not the case. You haven't reasoned that it's true, it's just convenient for you.

This forum is now worse than useless for me, as far as my commenting further goes. I'm gone.

Was that a satisfying flounce? You'll have to let me know when you're back.
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Re: Designating intent in posting motivation

#12  Postby tuco » Mar 22, 2020 10:27 pm

Keep It Real wrote:Virtually all these posts are focused entirely on ME and MY bla bla bla when it was intended to discuss an issue which has as much todo with me as anybody else. The hatred of me in those posts? It wears thin, and what's the point in posting proper topics like this if they immediately descends into narky vacuous worthless hatred shite. This forum is now worse than useless for me, as far as my commenting further goes. I'm gone.


People get it wrong ALL THE FUCKING TIME in my experience, thus my coining of the term "another psychic in our midst."

Your experience, since you can't see inside others' heads, implies focus on you. That is ok, nobody hates you, I think. Calm down and come back.
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Re: Designating intent in posting motivation

#13  Postby SafeAsMilk » Mar 22, 2020 10:42 pm

tuco wrote:That is ok, nobody hates you, I think.

You're right, of course. Could you imagine hating someone you've never met that has zero impact on your life? But then, how would we get to the dramatic flounce?
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Re: Designating intent in posting motivation

#14  Postby Hermit » Mar 23, 2020 2:45 am

Keep It Real wrote:People get it wrong ALL THE FUCKING TIME in my experience, thus my coining of the term "another psychic in our midst." Objectively determining dead-cert intent, without a "confession" to that effect, is point blank impossible, and basically people should bear that in mind before continually waving the shitty end of the stick in people's faces at the drop of a hat. I'm not talking specifically about accusations of trolling here, btw, just imputing dead-cert intent in general. 2c

The likelihood of an assertion regarding intent being correct can be so high that we can safely invoke the "beyond reasonable doubt" dictum. In post #10 Thommo cited one example. If you want to persist in arguing people got it wrong in this particular case, I would like to hear your reasoning.

I can cite another example: A few years ago a new member trolled the fuck out of people at Rationalia. How can we be certain? Well, another member discovered him asking for advice about how to improve his trolling technique in a forum going by the name of "flamewarriors". He explained that he had just joined Rationalia and was not getting the amount of upset he hoped for. And yes, his alias was the same in both forums. I think you can agree that while 100% certainty is unobtainable, the amount it falls short of it can be safely ignored.

That said, I found that all too often accusations of trolling arise for no better reason than that the accused's opinions stink and refuses to give them up.
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Re: Designating intent in posting motivation

#15  Postby Spearthrower » Mar 23, 2020 3:05 am

Thommo wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:Virtually all these posts are focused entirely on ME and MY bla bla bla when it was intended to discuss an issue which has as much todo with me as anybody else. The hatred of me in those posts? It wears thin, and what's the point in posting proper topics like this if they immediately descends into narky vacuous worthless hatred shite. This forum is now worse than useless for me, as far as my commenting further goes. I'm gone.


It's difficult to discern what the exact point of the OP is, I'm afraid. It basically consists of quotes from an ongoing disagreement between you and Spearthrower, plus the added claim that you coined the phrase "another psychic in our midst" to describe such disagreements.


I do want to note that it wasn't so much an ongoing disagreement - that was the sum total of exchanges on this prior to the thread. The problem is that it has absolutely no relevant connection to the topic of 'designating intent' - I didn't suggest that KIR used the phrase wrong for some specific motivation, just that he had misused the phrase, writing it in response to posts wherein no context of reading intent was relevant.

My sense is that KIR wanted to call me out here, which is why he did so even though the banner under which he did so had nothing to do with the stated topic title. That IS reading intent, and as usual, when I say something like this I qualify it - i.e. by writing something like "My sense is that..." but it's very hard to imagine if KIR wanted to have a 'serious' thread about reading intent, why the majority of his OP has fuck all to do with intent, but seems to want to talk about usage of a phrase which he definitely did not coin.
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Re: Designating intent in posting motivation

#16  Postby OlivierK » Mar 23, 2020 3:07 am

Keep It Real wrote:Virtually all these posts are focused entirely on ME and MY bla bla bla when it was intended to discuss an issue which has as much todo with me as anybody else.

Perhaps in your time away from here, you might consider that if you wanted to discuss an issue in general terms, you might have got a better result with an OP that wasn't entirely about yourself.

Keep It Real wrote:The hatred of me in those posts? It wears thin, and what's the point in posting proper topics like this if they immediately descends into narky vacuous worthless hatred shite.

Again, it's hard to detect any "proper topic" in the OP through all the narky vacuous defensiveness that makes up pretty much the entire post.

Keep It Real wrote:This forum is now worse than useless for me, as far as my commenting further goes. I'm gone.

I'm not sure that ensuring "utility of the forum to KIR" is anyone else's goal here (especially as to achieving it would seem to involve indulging some of your worse behaviour, or turning a blind eye to it, at least). If talking to a bunch of people who call a spade a spade hasn't worked for you here in the past, it's not likely to in the future.

Nobody here hates you, and your participation here isn't conditional on anything other than your ability to hear home truths without feeling the need to run away.
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