Diesel Cars & Pollution

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Re: Diesel Cars & Pollution

#21  Postby johnbrandt » Mar 04, 2017 4:06 am

Alan B wrote:It isn't just increasing car tax or the price of fuel, some towns are trying to introduce higher parking fees for diesel owners. That is just a money grabbing exercise with the money serving no other purpose than filling the local coffers.


Governments LOVE doing that...
Many years back...in the 1990's...LP Gas used to be a dirt cheap fuel source for cars. At the time LPG was only a fraction the price of petrol...when petrol reached a dollar a liter, LPG was only around 20 cents, if that. Mostly taxis used it because it was so cheap, but some car owners did too, with "dual fuel" systems. The problem was that unless you went all out and rebuilt your engine to be a dedicated LPG engine...hardened valve seats, much higher compression, LPG specific camshaft, etc...then your car would get dramatically worse fuel economy when running on LPG compared to petrol. This was more than offset by the super cheap price of LPG compared to petrol.
Then the government...ostensibly for environmental reasons...decided to encourage people to put LPG systems in their family cars, giving up to $2000 grants to fit it. We looked at it ourselves but decided not to. Plenty of people did though, all over the country. The take up was massive.
Then once numbers of LPG cars rose dramatically, guess what happened?
The LPG fuel, which previously had not had a fuel tax...sorry, "excise"...on it, suddenly had a tax whacked on, and now we have a situation where LPG is so close to the price of petrol that it's no longer economically viable to fit it. Taxis are mostly going to either diesel cars or hybrids.

That's what happens when a government sees something it cannot resist...a captive audience to tax into submission.

Now we have state governments trying to bring in an ethanol-blend mandate to force people to use ethanol blend fuel, despite the fact old cars...and a lot of newer ones...cannot run on the stuff, and the fact it makes your car get worse fuel economy. Which is better for the environment. Somehow. :think:
Ethanol blend fuel is also heavily subsidized by the government, and is cheaper than normal unleaded fuel. And they're trying to either convince or force everyone to use it.

Everyone knows what will happen once the tipping point is reached and a majority of drivers are forced to use it. The subsidies will vanish, fuel excise will be added to bring it into parity with unleaded, and the price will rise. We're not stupid.

Diesel is a great fuel...efficient, powerful, easily manufactured. The emissions are easily controlled as well, but really owners are more concerned with fuel economy than whatever the emissions figures are...people don't care. Is it powerful and economical? Fine...give it to me. Who cares about anything else. We have two cars on the road now...a 2011 Mitsubishi Triton 4x4 twin cab, and a 1982 Toyota Celica with five speed manual. On the highway and even around town, the big two tonne turbo diesel automatic 4x4 gets way better economy than the light weight 2 liter petrol engined 5 speed Celica. How is that not better for the environment?
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Re: Diesel Cars & Pollution

#22  Postby Fenrir » Mar 04, 2017 4:53 am

The problem was that unless you went all out and rebuilt your engine to be a dedicated LPG engine...hardened valve seats, much higher compression, LPG specific camshaft, etc...then your car would get dramatically worse fuel economy when running on LPG compared to petrol.


Lol. No
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Re: Diesel Cars & Pollution

#23  Postby Scot Dutchy » Mar 04, 2017 11:20 am

I saw a question in a Dutch newspaper; how much will your diesel engined car be worth in five years time? Not much. You will be banned from many city and town centres by then.
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Re: Diesel Cars & Pollution

#24  Postby Alan B » Mar 04, 2017 1:14 pm

Everyone is talking about banning and charging extra money. Are there no technological fixes?

There seems to be that there has been no attempt to discover and discuss any research that might have been carried out by car manufacturers or independent research facilities. It beggars belief that absolutely no-one has looked into this problem.

Perhaps they have, and the results have been, er, conveniently forgotten or mislaid or something...
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Re: Diesel Cars & Pollution

#25  Postby Scot Dutchy » Mar 04, 2017 1:17 pm

Alan B wrote:Everyone is talking about banning and charging extra money. Are there no technological fixes?

There seems to be that there has been no attempt to discover and discuss any research that might have been carried out by car manufacturers or independent research facilities. It beggars belief that absolutely no-one has looked into this problem.

Perhaps they have, and the results have been, er, conveniently forgotten or mislaid or something...


Well if manufacturers install wonky software to cover up then I think your last sentence is very valid.
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Re: Diesel Cars & Pollution

#26  Postby felltoearth » Mar 05, 2017 4:55 pm

With self driving cars, car ownership will decline further in the coming years. This will lower the bar to the EV switch even more.
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Re: Diesel Cars & Pollution

#27  Postby Tero » Mar 05, 2017 5:52 pm

Diesel fuel is produced in huge quantity, so obviously someone was going to keep making cars for it. But it will be used up in any case so it's not important that cars use it. Trucks, trains and planes wil use it. Are there pollution rules for jet engines?
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Re: Diesel Cars & Pollution

#28  Postby Macdoc » Mar 06, 2017 5:45 am

Ummm diesel is just one choice a refinery makes.
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Re: Diesel Cars & Pollution

#29  Postby Tero » Mar 06, 2017 1:31 pm

Refineries make the maximum number of products to give them the most income. if they only made regular gasoline, they would not make as much. Plus, jet engines use higher boiling components not used in auto gasoline:
....has a carbon number distribution between about 8 and 16 (carbon atoms per molecule); wide-cut or naphtha-type jet fuel (including Jet B), between about 5 and 15
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Re: Diesel Cars & Pollution

#30  Postby Macdoc » Mar 06, 2017 2:04 pm

They make what the market calls for.
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Re: Diesel Cars & Pollution

#31  Postby The_Metatron » Mar 06, 2017 11:11 pm

The best diesel engines are around 50% more efficient than the best gasoline engines (45% vs 30%). Heat engines pretty much suck at efficiency. For personal transport, there are two most efficient methods: Move under your own power, or drive an electric car.

But, fuel efficiency isn't the only measure of environmental impact. That two ton truck has a goddamned big carbon footprint, owing to its manufacture. The trick is, to do what we need without releasing carbon into the air.

That truck, for example. How many trips does it make while empty? Because, at that point, it isn't a truck, but a big goddamned carbon spewing car.

Electric cars are upwards of 90% efficient. But, that electricity has to come from somewhere. It takes energy to get those electrons piled up where you want them to be. Environmental advantages in their use depend on how they are charged. In the worst case, they are charged by a coal burning power plant. Even at that, that plant is only somewhat more efficient than a diesel engine. Usually. Denmark has a coal fired plant boasting 91% efficiency. How the hell they do that, I haven't investigated further.

The electric cars to enjoy the advantage of being able to take a charge from anywhere, though. Wind and solar plants can charge electric cars as well as mains power from the grid. There's your huckleberry.
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Re: Diesel Cars & Pollution

#32  Postby Alan B » Apr 08, 2017 5:22 pm

In my OP I mentioned that the government has suggested that '12,000 deaths' per year are due to pollution from diesel cars.

The latest figure bandied about is 7,000 deaths due to pollution from diesel cars. A 'sudden' reduction of 5,000 over the last two or three weeks?

Out of which hat are they plucking these figures?
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Re: Diesel Cars & Pollution

#33  Postby Scot Dutchy » Apr 09, 2017 9:12 am

The one paying the most money :lol:
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Re: Diesel Cars & Pollution

#34  Postby Galactor » Apr 09, 2017 9:26 am

Macdoc wrote:They make what the market calls for.


And just who is "the market"?

The companies with power to determine what "the market" "wants"?
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