First World, Third World. Is there a "Second World"?

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Re: First World, Third World. Is there a "Second World"?

#21  Postby Macdoc » Mar 09, 2019 11:28 am

Indeed especially then with the huge effort to beat Hitler ( mind you with lend lease ) and then Sputnik, nukes et al.

In my view the Cold War was binary with lots of agitprop on both sides

This was not a second world leader....

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Re: First World, Third World. Is there a "Second World"?

#22  Postby Hermit » Mar 09, 2019 11:35 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Hermit wrote:In my previous post I made it abundantly clear that the definition of First World and Second World started off as differentiating the Western from the Eastern Bloc. Read its last sentence. This changed with Sauvy's 1952 article.

I note your source does not contain a single date, and the solitary reference it cites is no more than a pointer to a journal rather than the actual article by Tomlinson it is based on.

What is your source? Your netherregions? I thought so. That was a primary interpretation and nothing to do with the final result.
Read the whole thing will you there are plenty of dates.

During the Cold War, unaligned countries of the Third World[6] were seen as potential allies by both the First and Second World. Therefore, the United States and the Soviet Union went to great lengths to establish connections in these countries by offering economic and military support to gain strategically located alliances (e.g. the United States in Vietnam or the Soviet Union in Cuba).[6] By the end of the Cold War, many Third World countries had adopted capitalist or communist economic models and continued to receive support from the side they had chosen. Throughout the Cold War and beyond, the countries of the Third World have been the priority recipients of Western foreign aid and the focus of economic development through mainstream theories such as modernization theory and dependency theory.[6]

By the end of the 1960s, the idea of the Third World came to represent countries in Africa, Asia and Latin America that were considered underdeveloped by the West based on a variety of characteristics (low economic development, low life expectancy, high rates of poverty and disease, etc.).[3] These countries became the targets for aid and support from governments, NGOs and individuals from wealthier nations. One popular model, known as Rostow's stages of growth, argued that development took place in 5 stages (Traditional Society; Pre-conditions for Take-off; Take-off; Drive to Maturity; Age of High Mass Consumption).[9] W. W. Rostow argued that Take-off was the critical stage that the Third World was missing or struggling with. Thus, foreign aid was needed to help kick-start industrialization and economic growth in these countries.[9

You keep misunderstanding what I say and what I do not say. I do not say the concept of a First and a Second World was not initially about the Eastern and the Western Bloc. I do say that the concept changed from what you called "pure political allegiance" to one more focused on per capita GDP beginning long before you think it did, namely with Sauvy's article published in 1952. You can read that article here, and the pamphlet his key sentence referred to here.
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Re: First World, Third World. Is there a "Second World"?

#23  Postby Ironclad » Mar 09, 2019 12:56 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Hermit wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:It was political and only after the fall of the soviet union was it economical.

News trickle slowly into the nether regions.


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Re: First World, Third World. Is there a "Second World"?

#24  Postby Scot Dutchy » Mar 09, 2019 1:11 pm

Hermit wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Hermit wrote:In my previous post I made it abundantly clear that the definition of First World and Second World started off as differentiating the Western from the Eastern Bloc. Read its last sentence. This changed with Sauvy's 1952 article.

I note your source does not contain a single date, and the solitary reference it cites is no more than a pointer to a journal rather than the actual article by Tomlinson it is based on.

What is your source? Your netherregions? I thought so. That was a primary interpretation and nothing to do with the final result.
Read the whole thing will you there are plenty of dates.

During the Cold War, unaligned countries of the Third World[6] were seen as potential allies by both the First and Second World. Therefore, the United States and the Soviet Union went to great lengths to establish connections in these countries by offering economic and military support to gain strategically located alliances (e.g. the United States in Vietnam or the Soviet Union in Cuba).[6] By the end of the Cold War, many Third World countries had adopted capitalist or communist economic models and continued to receive support from the side they had chosen. Throughout the Cold War and beyond, the countries of the Third World have been the priority recipients of Western foreign aid and the focus of economic development through mainstream theories such as modernization theory and dependency theory.[6]

By the end of the 1960s, the idea of the Third World came to represent countries in Africa, Asia and Latin America that were considered underdeveloped by the West based on a variety of characteristics (low economic development, low life expectancy, high rates of poverty and disease, etc.).[3] These countries became the targets for aid and support from governments, NGOs and individuals from wealthier nations. One popular model, known as Rostow's stages of growth, argued that development took place in 5 stages (Traditional Society; Pre-conditions for Take-off; Take-off; Drive to Maturity; Age of High Mass Consumption).[9] W. W. Rostow argued that Take-off was the critical stage that the Third World was missing or struggling with. Thus, foreign aid was needed to help kick-start industrialization and economic growth in these countries.[9

You keep misunderstanding what I say and what I do not say. I do not say the concept of a First and a Second World was not initially about the Eastern and the Western Bloc. I do say that the concept changed from what you called "pure political allegiance" to one more focused on per capita GDP beginning long before you think it did, namely with Sauvy's article published in 1952. You can read that article here, and the pamphlet his key sentence referred to here.


The article is of little relevance to what the concept turned into the cold war and the present world.

Talk about :deadhorse:
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First World, Third World. Is there a "Second World"?

#25  Postby felltoearth » Mar 09, 2019 4:51 pm

In school in the 70s we learned about the Third World as an economic concept, i.e. impoverished countries primarily in southern Asia and Africa. Political aspects were only tied to policies and the notion of eastern/western blocs or “Failed states” never entered into the conversation. The ties to west v USSR via First and Second world sobriquets is news to me.
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Re: First World, Third World. Is there a "Second World"?

#26  Postby Scot Dutchy » Mar 09, 2019 6:53 pm

I was at school in the 60's. In "modern studies" that was the standard division.
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Re: First World, Third World. Is there a "Second World"?

#27  Postby Alan B » Mar 11, 2019 2:34 pm

"3rd world countries" has now been replaced by a new technical term: "Shithole countries". :whistle:
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Re: First World, Third World. Is there a "Second World"?

#28  Postby raggysource » Jul 11, 2019 8:40 am

I was always taught that 2nd world meant communist countries. That may have changed now. Some people use the term to refer to countries that are in the process of developing.
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Re: First World, Third World. Is there a "Second World"?

#29  Postby Keep It Real » Jul 11, 2019 9:14 am

It is my understanding that the current..er.. "PC" word for relatively impoverished countries in general is "the global South" - this is not a strict geographical reference.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_South
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