Home Improvement Discussion

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Re: Home Improvement Discussion

#41  Postby Onyx8 » Mar 22, 2016 3:22 am

Sharks are code here for PEX, Cu and Poly-B behind walls or underground, I don't know about CPVC so I doubt it. It isn't used that much here anymore. If at all.
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Re: Home Improvement Discussion

#42  Postby laklak » Mar 22, 2016 3:25 am

@Boyle. LOL at the table saw. Of fucking course you need one! And a double miter, and a band, and a jig. Drill press, metal lathe, hydraulic press. Mig, tig, stick, and oxy.

And an air conditioned 6 car garage.
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Re: Home Improvement Discussion

#43  Postby Onyx8 » Mar 22, 2016 4:20 am

laklak wrote:What sort of lifespan on the PEX? I was actually considering going to copper for the new addition, cuz that shit will last a looong time. All the plumbing will be in the walls, because I'm putting in a cathedral ceiling and there won't be an attic crawlspace. I used cpvc here at my house, it's up in the attic, so any issues in future are easily addressed without tearing out the walls.



Lifespan is forever: it's code. Ie someone else's fault. The copper lasts forever, the joints not so much. Although it was the absolute best for decades if not centuries. Pex will outlive your responsibility. :thumbup:

They've been using it in Europe for many years.

The initial outlay on the crimper is a bitch, everything else is who cares.
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Re: Home Improvement Discussion

#44  Postby Boyle » Mar 22, 2016 4:44 am

Onyx8 wrote:
Boyle wrote:
ScholasticSpastic wrote:
Boyle wrote:The most important thing about DIY home improvement is that you spend as much money doing it and repairing it and buying one-off tools as you would have to hire a good contractor to do it right the first time.

Tile saw: $40
Tile snips: $10
Grout float: $6
Trowel: $10
Tiles: $600 (on clearance- 22 cases of 18ft2 each)
Saw blades: $65
Thinset: $100
Grout: $30

Total cost for 390ft2: $861

I left off the spacers because they were cost-negligible, and the knee pads because they'll be useful for other tasks. The bucket I decided to waste because I was too tired to rinse it out at the end of the process cost maybe $3.

I'm seeing estimates online for over $1000 for a 32ft2 bathroom floor.

Yep, I totally wasted money doing it myself. 8-)

ETA: Home Despot allowed me to take in the unused case of tiles I bought for a refund, so I didn't count that one. Also, don't be an idiot like I was and buy only the square footage you need. I lucked out, cut judiciously, and managed to use the broken tiles for piece work. But you should seriously consider buying at least 10% more tile than you calculate you'll need for the task. So let's add $60 to my total just for kicks. DIY was $921 for 390ft2 versus over $1000 for a space a tenth as big.

Yah, no joke it is cheaper, but I notice every little fuck up I make along the way. Then again, I like collecting tools, nice ones, so that might be more of an issue. I made my counter top from concrete, though, and saved like 2 grand even with buying every tool I needed, like a 5 inch angle grinder and all the random shit that goes into building a counter top. My fiance is just lucky we don't have room for a table saw or I'd have gotten a fuckin' Jet table saw and made the cabinets too. Which means I'd need a fancy laser level kit.

Also, +1 for PEX. PEX is love, PEX is life.



Lol at PEX love, I'm right there with you.

Ooh, ooh I want to see your concrete tops, pics, pics. I've done a couple although I am a long way from expert on them.

The pics are pretty big, so here's an imgur album: linky

It's a single piece that runs about 18 feet with sink. That's why it's got the glass mat reinforcement. About 2 inches thick. Damn thing isn't ever coming out. I was really worried about the sink until I realized I could use marine grade epoxy to fill it and make it all sleek like.
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Re: Home Improvement Discussion

#45  Postby Boyle » Mar 22, 2016 4:45 am

laklak wrote:@Boyle. LOL at the table saw. Of fucking course you need one! And a double miter, and a band, and a jig. Drill press, metal lathe, hydraulic press. Mig, tig, stick, and oxy.

And an air conditioned 6 car garage.

I want to retire so I can work more.
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Re: Home Improvement Discussion

#46  Postby Onyx8 » Mar 22, 2016 5:42 am

ScholasticSpastic wrote:
Onyx8 wrote:
Be aware that stone requires a structure with 1/2 the allowed deflection than ceramic when you choose your materials for future wooden floors.

Could you expand on this idea for me? I think you've assumed I know more than I actually know. Which can be flattering, but also bewildering. :shifty:


Ok, I'll try. Sorry.

The word 'tile' covers at least two different products: Ceramic (man-made) tiles, and stone (i.e.. marble, travertine, slate etc.)

The two different things have different properties, the most interesting (dangerous) from an installers viewpoint is their brittleness. Put simply stone is twice as brittle (breakable) as ceramic. (This is a generalization: various stone has various brittleness, as ceramic (and porcelain) does, but is nonetheless true as a rule of thumb.)

When installing either over a very rigid substrate like concrete this isn't an issue (assuming the concrete is not cracked/moving, duh), but it is an issue when installing over an inherently 'bouncy' structure like plywood on joists.

The 'allowable' deflection when installing tile is 1/360 for ceramics and 1/720 for stone.

Deflection happens in a wood floor in two ways: The joists can bend between supports (beams or concrete or whatever is holding them up underneath), and the plywood can bend between the joists. Both deflections have to be dealt with when trying to make a floor rigid enough for tile of either type.

e.g.: If you have 2x10's on 16" centres spanning 8' then you are ok with the joists (they are stiff enough), but with (standard) 5/8" ply over that, you are NOT good to go on the deflection between the joists. You need at least 1-1/8" of ply to reduce the 'give' of the floor between the joists to allow tile. So you will have to add another 1/2" of ply.

And then you really want to separate the tile from the wood due to different thermal/moisture/seasonal expansions, so you are going to add some type of 'break' between the tile and the ply. Like cement board or some manufactured product like Ditra or other membranes.

It perhaps sounds harder than it should but that is likely my explanation. It really isn't.

The short story is: Concrete is perfect for putting tile on, wood is not, and has to be dealt with or the tile will fail.

Too much? Not enough?
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Re: Home Improvement Discussion

#47  Postby DougC » Mar 22, 2016 5:44 am

Bookmarking :popcorn:

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Re: Home Improvement Discussion

#48  Postby Onyx8 » Mar 22, 2016 5:46 am

I never wear a tie.

Tim Allen is a millionaire and the other guy is…who?
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Re: Home Improvement Discussion

#49  Postby DougC » Mar 22, 2016 6:03 am

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Re: Home Improvement Discussion

#50  Postby Onyx8 » Mar 22, 2016 7:35 am

:grin:
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Re: Home Improvement Discussion

#51  Postby The_Piper » Mar 22, 2016 12:34 pm

My whole living room is faux wood paneling like that in SS' picture, I think. I don't mind it. My bedroom is too, but a different style.
I've mentioned this before on some other thread, but I had some friends help me replace freeze-busted copper piping with PEX. I guess we used shark bites, they are screw-in connectors. I did the cuts with a saw that had an arm that you drop down by hand. Onyx told me the name but I forgot. So what's the crimper? :shifty:
The PEX runs through a cabinet to the outside of the inside walls in the bathroom, to prevent future freezing.
I still haven't fixed the plumbing under my kitchen, it's still leaking. :nono:
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Re: Home Improvement Discussion

#52  Postby laklak » Mar 22, 2016 3:07 pm

Onyx8 wrote:
Lifespan is forever: it's code. Ie someone else's fault. The copper lasts forever, the joints not so much. Although it was the absolute best for decades if not centuries. Pex will outlive your responsibility. :thumbup:

They've been using it in Europe for many years.

The initial outlay on the crimper is a bitch, everything else is who cares.


Probably use PEX then. I designed the addition so I'd have one continuous run of copper with no joints from the service and water heater to the bathroom, so all joints would be easily accessible. Copper is a bit of a bitch to work with in any sort of cramped environment, though, like under a sink.

Next house I build or buy will be up in the Panhandle, maybe Dog Island if I can talk the missus into living on a remote island with no bridge and no stores. You have to build up on stilts, I think current code is 13 feet above Mean High Water. It never freezes there, so all the plumbing and electrical hangs from the joists under the house, SO fucking easy to work on. Two step ladders, a couple of 2x12s and you're ready to go. Relocating a bathroom is basically cutting some access holes in the decking and running some pipe. What a pleasure.

This one just sold, worse luck, we're just not in a position to buy yet. It's directly on the Gulf of Mexico (pic is taken from teh beach). 2000 square feet on a full acre of land, next to a nature reserve so NEVER any neighbors, about a mile over sand roads from the harbor. $350K. And they say money can't buy happiness. They lie.

Image

Likely spend a lot of time replacing the wood on the raised walkway, but it would keep me busy. Lots of restrictions on land use though, as the entire island is a nature reserve. No livestock of any kind, can't have a grass lawn or bring in any alien plant species, must have elevated walkways, etc. A small price to pay, methinks, to live as close to Heaven as possible in this profane world. Oh, and NO outdoor cats. On the plus side, an empty, unspoiled beach with no tourists, where doggies can frolic with the dolphins and perhaps get eaten by the numerous sharks.
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Re: Home Improvement Discussion

#53  Postby Onyx8 » Mar 22, 2016 3:57 pm

The_Piper wrote:My whole living room is faux wood paneling like that in SS' picture, I think. I don't mind it. My bedroom is too, but a different style.
I've mentioned this before on some other thread, but I had some friends help me replace freeze-busted copper piping with PEX. I guess we used shark bites, they are screw-in connectors. I did the cuts with a saw that had an arm that you drop down by hand. Onyx told me the name but I forgot. So what's the crimper? :shifty:
The PEX runs through a cabinet to the outside of the inside walls in the bathroom, to prevent future freezing.
I still haven't fixed the plumbing under my kitchen, it's still leaking. :nono:



There are fittings, rings and pipe. You push the fitting (elbow, tee, whatever) into the pipe and then crimp a ring over the pipe at the fitting. That's the connection done.

Shark-bites are press-on connectors, also a wonder of the modern world of plumbing.
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Re: Home Improvement Discussion

#54  Postby ScholasticSpastic » Mar 22, 2016 7:03 pm

Onyx8 wrote:
Too much? Not enough?

:thumbup: Just right.

So, to sum up, a man's home is his bouncy castle, and ceramic tiles can take more give than stone ones. Either way, the bouncier the castle, the greater the need to shore that thing up or your tiles (and perhaps your mind) will crack.

Luckily, ceramic tiles also tend to run a little cheaper than stone ones, and I'm on a budget, so I'ma shore up my castle and go with the more forgiving tiles as well.

Quick question: Backerboard- how much deflection (now I can use a new bit of jargon!) can the stuff handle? If I stick backerboard to my subfloor and tile on top of it, will all my architectural sins be forgiven? Or is there a point beyond which greater absolution must be sought?
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Re: Home Improvement Discussion

#55  Postby Arnold Layne » Mar 22, 2016 9:09 pm

Mazille wrote:
jamest wrote:You can't beat a nice soft carpet under your [shoeless] feet, imo.

I'm not a fan of carpets myself, but I can see the appeal. It begs the question, though, why not just throw a rug on your normal tile, wood or even linoleum floor and pick it up and have it cleaned once your cat/dog/kid/partner had their first wee/poop/puke/wine-spill on it? Why stick it to the floor and guarantee that you have a breeding ground for everything you don't want to touch with your bare skin?

Yeah, when you have 4 cats and a dog you don't want carpets! :yuk:
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Re: Home Improvement Discussion

#56  Postby Onyx8 » Mar 22, 2016 9:45 pm

Backer board unfortunately adds nothing in terms of strength it is there simply to decouple the tile from the wood which have radically different expansion factors. On a floor you can use the thinnest backer board you can find. In fact you can actually use membranes such as Ditra.

Plug your particular numbers into the handy-dandy 'Deflecto' calculator on the link above and it will tell you whether or not you need more plywood or stiffer joists. You will need: joist size and span between supports, joist spacing (16" or 24" typically), joist material (likely hem/fir for your place).
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Re: Home Improvement Discussion

#57  Postby Onyx8 » Mar 22, 2016 9:45 pm

Boyle, nice work. Did you pour the sink in situ at the same time?
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Re: Home Improvement Discussion

#58  Postby laklak » Mar 23, 2016 5:11 pm

Yeah, I really like that countertop. How hard was it to do? After seeing it (and pricing granite) I'm considering it for the addition. I've got two kitchens to redo, so saving a buck or two would be great. Any tips / instructions would be appreciated.
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Re: Home Improvement Discussion

#59  Postby Boyle » Mar 23, 2016 7:03 pm

Onyx8 wrote:Boyle, nice work. Did you pour the sink in situ at the same time?

Yeah, it's seamless. I didn't quite have the mix watery enough to totally fill the underside of the sink mold so I used a 2 part marine epoxy to prevent leaks. That company has since released a bar top epoxy that I would have used instead, but it's holding up decently. I got lucky that I fucked up in an aesthetically pleasing way.

I did test the structural integrity of the sink by standing in it so it's good despite the screw up.

laklak wrote:Yeah, I really like that countertop. How hard was it to do? After seeing it (and pricing granite) I'm considering it for the addition. I've got two kitchens to redo, so saving a buck or two would be great. Any tips / instructions would be appreciated.

Not too bad. I'll post up the links to the forms I used that snap off (and post more tips) and, if you have the mix just liquid enough, makes glass smooth edges. It's a glass fiber reinforced mix. The fibers in the mix probably don't help much except to prevent flaking, but the mat helped a lot with flexing. I did it with just 2 five gallon buckets and power drill and my cousin to help.
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Re: Home Improvement Discussion

#60  Postby laklak » Mar 23, 2016 9:08 pm

:thumbup:
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