Spearthrower wrote:Oops, I meant ALL handle... a handle attached to nothing - it looks like a handle, it turns like a handle, for all intents and purposes it IS a handle, it's just not attached to anything and therefore isn't really being a handle.

My association with "handle" is that it's a reference to a reference (memory pointers in computing). Believe me, a handle pointing to nothing happens more often than one might like.

Spearthrower wrote:Alternatively, it might all be ALL handle.

Yes please. I could live with that for quite some time.

jamest wrote:

Fallible wrote:

jamest wrote:You're right. It's a silly man thing I guess, a bit like refusing to wear pink. I'll bear it in mind.

I lost my rag today as my 18 year-old step-daughter sneaked out for a last Mcdonalds lunch before it closed. I'm pretty sure that calling her a selfish moron was over the top, so now I feel bad, but it pisses me off that she's not taking it seriously enough. Not the greatest advert for a self isolating family, regardless.

Eta: we're not actually a self-isolating family as my missus and I are both deemed 'essential workers', apparently, but in all other respects we want to be one.

Er...well we all parent a bit differently, but no, it’s not a great idea to be name-calling one of your children because you lost your rag. I dunno how long ago she became your step-daughter, but I do know that relations in a step-family can be somewhat fragile and need careful management. Plus if you’re both out of the house regularly, you might as well not bother trying to isolate in order to protect the family. You bring the possibility home with you each time you bring yourselves home - her exposure once at a fast food establishment is possibly less of a risk than that - I doubt you and your wife separate yourselves from your children when you get home anyway.

I don't believe that any family exists which hasn't at many points had a fall-out involving differences of opinion etc., but during these very troubling times it will happen much more often. As I said, I don't feel unjustified in telling my step-daughter that she was wrong to go to Mcdonald's on Monday. Without qualifying her behaviour as moronic and selfish, I don't know how I could have justified that judgement, nor culled it.

The careful readers among us will notice that I specified name calling because you had lost your rag, not simply falling out or calling out someone’s behaviour. How unlike you to mess with my comments in this manner in your reply.

Is there any kind way of telling people that they've acted like a cunt? Seriously. I mean, she's 18, not 5.

And I have a 19 year old, so what? Names are never used when trying to make a serious point, ever. Oddly, I’ve found that if I say to a 19 year old woman ‘look, that wasn’t on, and here’s why’, she appears to understand the English language pretty well. It’s not my fault that the only way you can think of to call out an 18 year old’s behaviour is to call her names.

An ideal handle. Platonic, like. Forms.

laklak wrote:An ideal handle. Platonic, like. Forms.

The singular handle of which all handles are but handle-shaped atoms.

Fallible wrote:

jamest wrote:

Fallible wrote:

jamest wrote:You're right. It's a silly man thing I guess, a bit like refusing to wear pink. I'll bear it in mind.

I lost my rag today as my 18 year-old step-daughter sneaked out for a last Mcdonalds lunch before it closed. I'm pretty sure that calling her a selfish moron was over the top, so now I feel bad, but it pisses me off that she's not taking it seriously enough. Not the greatest advert for a self isolating family, regardless.

Eta: we're not actually a self-isolating family as my missus and I are both deemed 'essential workers', apparently, but in all other respects we want to be one.

Er...well we all parent a bit differently, but no, it’s not a great idea to be name-calling one of your children because you lost your rag. I dunno how long ago she became your step-daughter, but I do know that relations in a step-family can be somewhat fragile and need careful management. Plus if you’re both out of the house regularly, you might as well not bother trying to isolate in order to protect the family. You bring the possibility home with you each time you bring yourselves home - her exposure once at a fast food establishment is possibly less of a risk than that - I doubt you and your wife separate yourselves from your children when you get home anyway.

I don't believe that any family exists which hasn't at many points had a fall-out involving differences of opinion etc., but during these very troubling times it will happen much more often. As I said, I don't feel unjustified in telling my step-daughter that she was wrong to go to Mcdonald's on Monday. Without qualifying her behaviour as moronic and selfish, I don't know how I could have justified that judgement, nor culled it.

The careful readers among us will notice that I specified name calling because you had lost your rag, not simply falling out or calling out someone’s behaviour. How unlike you to mess with my comments in this manner in your reply.

Is there any kind way of telling people that they've acted like a cunt? Seriously. I mean, she's 18, not 5.

And I have a 19 year old, so what? Names are never used when trying to make a serious point, ever. Oddly, I’ve found that if I say to a 19 year old woman ‘look, that wasn’t on, and here’s why’, she appears to understand the English language pretty well. It’s not my fault that the only way you can think of to call out an 18 year old’s behaviour is to call her names.

Fair comments. Like I said, I feel guilty for calling her a selfish moron. Even if her behaviour was selfish and moronic to the point that it MIGHT result in the deaths of many people. Regardless, I'll try a different attitude the next time she does such a thing and see how that goes.

It's not as though I'm regularly calling her a selfish moron btw, it's just that I lost my rag at her because of the potential consequences of her actions. These are serious times. But she's young and naive and I regret losing the plot, so fair enough.

Thommo wrote:

jamest wrote:I don't believe that any family exists which hasn't at many points had a fall-out involving differences of opinion etc., but during these very troubling times it will happen much more often. As I said, I don't feel unjustified in telling my step-daughter that she was wrong to go to Mcdonald's on Monday. Without qualifying her behaviour as moronic and selfish, I don't know how I could have justified that judgement, nor culled it.
Is there any kind way of telling people that they've acted like a cunt? Seriously. I mean, she's 18, not 5.

Calmness. Listening. Empathy. Treating people with respect. Not flying off the handle.

Yes, you're all right about this. But this isn't an everyday 'teenager thing'. We're living in uncharted times where teenage naivity and selfishness WILL cost lives. That's why I was genuinely angry about her behaviour and emotion got the better of me.

I've learnt my lesson, I think, so thanks for all here for that.

And hysteria will probably cost ten times more lives.

The thing is when one wants to communicate effectively one has to know what the desired outcome of a conversation is. Clearly it wasn't to get her not to go to McDonald's again since it was closing anyway. If the objective was to get her to be considerate of others' feelings and learn to compromise with the people she's living with (controlling her would be a non-starter as she's a legal adult and it's a grade A toxic asshole behaviour anyway) then I sincerely doubt a slanging match accomplished that.

The way to make someone think about your feelings is to be considerate of theirs. The way to make someone think about other points of view is to engage them in conversation, listen and be listened to, rather than force a confrontation in which everyone just digs in and becomes increasingly entrenched. And that's just from a purely goal-oriented approach. Never mind what happens with young people and children who learn their conflict resolution by imitating their parents. Children who are shown calmness, reasonableness and compassion by their parents grow up to be calm reasonable and compassionate much, much more often. Children who learn that parents get their way by bullying, cajoling and shouting tend to learn to do the same.

jamest wrote:

Thommo wrote:

jamest wrote:I don't believe that any family exists which hasn't at many points had a fall-out involving differences of opinion etc., but during these very troubling times it will happen much more often. As I said, I don't feel unjustified in telling my step-daughter that she was wrong to go to Mcdonald's on Monday. Without qualifying her behaviour as moronic and selfish, I don't know how I could have justified that judgement, nor culled it.
Is there any kind way of telling people that they've acted like a cunt? Seriously. I mean, she's 18, not 5.

Calmness. Listening. Empathy. Treating people with respect. Not flying off the handle.

Yes, you're all right about this. But this isn't an everyday 'teenager thing'. We're living in uncharted times where teenage naivity and selfishness WILL cost lives. That's why I was genuinely angry about her behaviour and emotion got the better of me.

I've learnt my lesson, I think, so thanks for all here for that.

Fair enough, James, and good of you to realise this. As an adult herself, I'm sure she understands that not all adults are perfect, and if she's got any insight at all, she'll understand that while your behaviour wasn't ideal, neither was hers.

Still, if you're committed to modelling better behaviour, what you should do today is to offer her a sincere apology (focusing entirely on showing that you know you crossed the line, and not of the "see what you made me do" variety). On the very rare occasion I've lost it with my kids, I make a point of it, and I know that's appreciated.

jamest wrote:
Fair comments. Like I said, I feel guilty for calling her a selfish moron. Even if her behaviour was selfish and moronic to the point that it MIGHT result in the deaths of many people.

You haven't really addressed how it's functionally different than what you say you and your wife are doing by going to out to work every day then returning home. That's not self-isolation. No doubt you take precautions, but the idea that she's selfish and moronic must be a little hard to swallow if her parents appear to be doing exactly what they accuse her of. I'm not saying you're not justified to continue going to work, but even if your daughter remains inside the house consistently throughout the next few weeks, it remains the case that she is being exposed to the threat regardless. If it's of such apocalyptic necessity that breaking self-isolation is selfish and moronic, then why are you still doing it?

The difference is that visiting McDonalds serves absolutely no useful purpose, as opposed to earning an income, or going shopping for food. It's gratuitously risky in exactly the way we've been asked to avoid. I don't think this is particularly hard.

OlivierK wrote:The difference is that visiting McDonalds serves absolutely no useful purpose, as opposed to earning an income, or going shopping for food. It's gratuitously risky in exactly the way we've been asked to avoid. I don't think this is particularly hard.

I didn't say they were the same, but rather that it's hypocritical to suggest that going outside is tantamount to being a moron due to exposing the family to risk when half the family is going outside every day and therefore exposing the family to even higher risk.

For a young person, seeing their friends before being cooped up for weeks probably doesn't feel gratuitously risky.

jamest wrote:
I've learnt my lesson, I think, so thanks for all here for that.

Spearthrower wrote:

jamest wrote:
Fair comments. Like I said, I feel guilty for calling her a selfish moron. Even if her behaviour was selfish and moronic to the point that it MIGHT result in the deaths of many people.

You haven't really addressed how it's functionally different than what you say you and your wife are doing by going to out to work every day then returning home. That's not self-isolation. No doubt you take precautions, but the idea that she's selfish and moronic must be a little hard to swallow if her parents appear to be doing exactly what they accuse her of. I'm not saying you're not justified to continue going to work, but even if your daughter remains inside the house consistently throughout the next few weeks, it remains the case that she is being exposed to the threat regardless. If it's of such apocalyptic necessity that breaking self-isolation is selfish and moronic, then why are you still doing it?

Apparently we're essential workers and the government isn't going to be paying us 80% of our wage for staying at home, so we have to work because we need to pay the bills and because we're essential workers.

What can you do in our position, unless you're rich? We're not. We need an income or our position will quickly deteriorate. Many of you will get one for sitting at home, we won't, as we cannot voluntarily give up our jobs and expect handouts. That's the bottom-line.

I've stated that I feel guilty for calling my 18 year-old step-daughter a selfish moron on Monday, even though her behaviour was essentially selfish and moronic, but there's not a chance you're going to equate her actions on Monday with ours to continue working, especially when the government who are dictating laws and advice WANT us to continue working.

Do you want to know something else? Every day that me and my wife go to work, we feel an enhanced sense of danger all the time that we're at work. To be honest, I'd take the government's 80% in a heartbeat for staying at home rather than risking my/family's health/life (notwithstanding everyone else). I don't want to go to work! I just have to!! If not me, then somebody else instead of me.

These are stressful times and I've acknowledged that I should have dealt with my step-daughter's behaviour better. What more do you want from me? An acknowledgement that I'm not perfect? Well, that goes without saying.

jamest wrote:
Apparently we're essential workers and the government isn't going to be paying us 80% of our wage for staying at home, so we have to work because we need to pay the bills and because we're essential workers.

I am absolutely not disputing your choice to work or the economic need to do so. What I am saying is that you can't seriously talk about self-isolating when half your household goes out every day.

jamest wrote:
I've stated that I feel guilty for calling my 18 year-old step-daughter a selfish moron on Monday, even though her behaviour was essentially selfish and moronic, but there's not a chance you're going to equate her actions on Monday with ours to continue working, especially when the government who are dictating laws and advice WANT us to continue working.

As you have no doubt read considering I specified this already:

I didn't say they were the same, but rather that it's hypocritical to suggest that going outside is tantamount to being a moron due to exposing the family to risk when half the family is going outside every day and therefore exposing the family to even higher risk.

For a young person, seeing their friends before being cooped up for weeks probably doesn't feel gratuitously risky.

I mean, if it's moronic to go out, then it's moronic - it may be necessarily moronic in your case, but if you truly believed that we are all fucking doomed, then I think you might have concluded that hiding for a month would be manageable comparative to the outcome.

I am absolutely not suggesting that you do this - I think you should just take reasonable precautions, and I think that would have been a much more rational way of informing your daughter who is actually legally an adult and can and should be expected to make choices for herself.

jamest wrote:Do you want to know something else? Every day that me and my wife go to work, we feel an enhanced sense of danger all the time that we're at work. To be honest, I'd take the government's 80% in a heartbeat for staying at home rather than risking my/family's health/life (notwithstanding everyone else). I don't want to go to work! I just have to!! If not me, then somebody else instead of me.

These are stressful times and I've acknowledged that I should have dealt with my step-daughter's behaviour better. What more do you want from me? An acknowledgement that I'm not perfect? Well, that goes without saying.

I didn't ask for anything, I just think you've got to put yourself in her shoes. What was the actual risk of her seeing her friends one last time before being caged for weeks, and who knows how much longer? The risk was minimal, particularly in comparison to her parents going out every day - necessary or not.

Spearthrower wrote:The risk was minimal, particularly in comparison to her parents going out every day - necessary or not.

If jamest is right his work is not necessary. He gets paid in currency he emphatically insists is essentially worthless.

The baby is miserable with a cold. Least, we hope it is a cold or hayfever praps

Spearthrower wrote:
I didn't ask for anything, I just think you've got to put yourself in her shoes. What was the actual risk of her seeing her friends one last time before being caged for weeks, and who knows how much longer? The risk was minimal, particularly in comparison to her parents going out every day - necessary or not.

I'm not sure that I mentioned this, but she didn't go to McDonalds to meet friends. She just wanted a McDonalds. Even brought it home and ate it in the house.

For the final time, her behaviour WAS moronic and selfish. What was wrong though is that I lost my rag and could have dealt with it better.

Thommo wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:The risk was minimal, particularly in comparison to her parents going out every day - necessary or not.

If jamest is right his work is not necessary. He gets paid in currency he emphatically insists is essentially worthless.

I'm not sure if my work is 'necessary' as in 'essential' wrt the health-workers etc. out there, but the government deems it so. Hence, I'll continue to work until I become ill. If not me, then somebody else, plus I need an income.

Also, I haven't said that the $/£ etc. is currently devoid of all value. That will only happen once hyperinflation kicks-in.

Please stop misrepresenting my views.

jamest wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:
I didn't ask for anything, I just think you've got to put yourself in her shoes. What was the actual risk of her seeing her friends one last time before being caged for weeks, and who knows how much longer? The risk was minimal, particularly in comparison to her parents going out every day - necessary or not.

I'm not sure that I mentioned this, but she didn't go to McDonalds to meet friends. She just wanted a McDonalds. Even brought it home and ate it in the house.

For the final time, her behaviour WAS moronic and selfish. What was wrong though is that I lost my rag and could have dealt with it better.

Nothing there seems at all moronic or selfish. She just wanted to enjoy something before being locked up for who knows how long. I really don't think she did anything that justifies your anger at all.

Also, the way you're talking to me is indicative of how you talk to her: you are not the fucking messiah jamest - you hold an opinion, but that opinion does not magically become fact simply because it's yours. She's 18, a legal adult, and she has the right to go to a shop, that's still open, before lock-down actually occurred. So say it as many times as you like, but there's nothing final there at all - her behavior was, at worst, a little bit risky but presumably, as an adult, she decided that little risk was worth it.