If gays can marry, then why can't I have multiple wives?

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Re: If gays can marry, then why can't I have multiple wives?

#81  Postby melchior » Mar 31, 2010 8:46 pm

I think that the notion of two men together is the evolutionary gold standard. Look at Joey and Chandler in Friends - can we get any better than that?
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Re: If gays can marry, then why can't I have multiple wives?

#82  Postby melchior » Mar 31, 2010 8:48 pm

Who needs chicks...

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edited to sort out image cock up.
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Re: If gays can marry, then why can't I have multiple wives?

#83  Postby xrayzed » Apr 01, 2010 1:49 am

I don’t think the argument against polygamy/polyandry on legal grounds holds up.

The issue of inheritance for multiple spouses isn’t any more complex than the issue of inheritance for multiple children. The basic principle in the absence of a will would be an equal division of property between the surviving spouses.

What if a man has four wives, and each of those wives has additional spouses? That’s irrelevant – they don’t have a legal claim on the inheritance because their legal relationship based on marriage is with the surviving wives, not the deceased husband.

The issue of who raises the children would default to the surviving parent. Certainly this could be challenged by other members of extended family, but this is not novel. It occurs today, for example with grandparents who seek custody where the parents are unfit to raise the children.

The “circular relationship” problem doesn’t pose any additional problems, Suppose two wives share two husbands, and one of the wives dies. Her surviving husbands have an equal share of the inheritance, and the surviving wife has none, because she does not have a legal relationship based on marriage with her.

There may be compelling reasons for opposing polygamy/polyandry, but legal complexities isn't one of them.
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Re: If gays can marry, then why can't I have multiple wives?

#84  Postby Lion IRC » Apr 01, 2010 2:34 am

Why not just dump the concept of marriage all together? This is getting so boring.

What is the benefit of an institution which is diluted to the point where it is no longer recognizable?

Forget the lame pretense that gay marriage or polygamy can easily fit into a neat ethical framework if only those nasty right wing fundies would just die in a ditch. Show me the moral argument against ANY of these. (Paging Mr Hitchens! Is there a Mr Hitchens in the house?)

Defacto marriage. Civil union. Married and divorced then remarried again. Gay marriage. Straight marriage. Platonic marriage. Marriage for money. Marriage for social status.
Cousin marriage. Sibling marriage. Father and daughter marriage. Father and son marriage.

Or these; :?

2 men 3 women.
4 women.
3 women, 2 men and an 11 year old who has the permission of her legal guardian.
5 men - two of whom love each other and the other 3 who like to watch so they kick in rent money.
3 women and a dog that is never forced to "do" anything and seems to enjoy it and so is clearly giving the maximum consent of which it is capable.

Oh, yeah and lets not discriminate against bonobos - they have feelings too you know. :o

And just when you thought the reductio ad absurdum couldn’t go any deeper….why can’t I genetically engineer a humanzee and marry her, him, them?

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Re: If gays can marry, then why can't I have multiple wives?

#85  Postby josephchoi » Apr 01, 2010 2:36 am

Hey look! The slope just got slippery!
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Re: If gays can marry, then why can't I have multiple wives?

#86  Postby mmmcheezy » Apr 01, 2010 2:40 am

The human and dog marriage is obviously a strawman because we're talking about CONSENTING ADULTS, if you'd bothered to read the thread.
As far as binning the idea of "traditional" marriage altogether, I think you'll see [once again, if you read the rest of the thread] that most of us are pretty much in favor of that. The idea of marriage is only to legally protect people--make sure their spouse[s] are in control of their lives should they not be able to make decisions, make sure inheritances are distributed as desired, etc.

Next time you feel like posting a strawman, can you at least go for one that isn't tired, one that we haven't already heard from those nasty right wing fundies hundreds of times?
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Re: If gays can marry, then why can't I have multiple wives?

#87  Postby Lion IRC » Apr 01, 2010 3:01 am

mmmcheezy wrote:The human and dog marriage is obviously a strawman because we're talking about CONSENTING ADULTS,


Who is we? The majority? Was there a vote while I wasn't looking? Or maybe you dont believe a vote is needed.
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mmmcheezy wrote:As far as binning the idea of "traditional" marriage altogether, I think you'll see [once again, if you read the rest of the thread] that most of us are pretty much in favor of that.


Most of us? Is that how you want marriage laws decided. Guess what "most of us" think about gay marriage.

mmmcheezy wrote:"The idea of marriage is only to"...... blah blah blah --->insert whatever totalitarianist fundyism you like here <---


mmmcheezy wrote:Next time you feel like posting a strawman, can you at least go for one that isn't tired, one that we haven't already heard from those nasty right wing fundies hundreds of times?


Nope - I am going to keep asking you over and over again to either support or oppose incestuous marriage. If its a strawman then you can make it go away very easily by saying..."No I dont think a father and son can give informed consent to marry each other"

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Re: If gays can marry, then why can't I have multiple wives?

#88  Postby mmmcheezy » Apr 01, 2010 3:03 am

ADULTS ADULTS ADULTS ADULTS ADULTS READ THE GODDAMN THREAD WE ARE ALL TALKING ABOUT ADULTS EXCEPT YOU. /shouting.
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Re: If gays can marry, then why can't I have multiple wives?

#89  Postby josephchoi » Apr 01, 2010 3:12 am

mmmcheezy wrote:ADULTS ADULTS ADULTS ADULTS ADULTS READ THE GODDAMN THREAD WE ARE ALL TALKING ABOUT ADULTS EXCEPT YOU. /shouting.

We're all just going down the fallacious slippery slope here! Gay marriage is wrong because it will allow bestiality! and down we go...
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Re: If gays can marry, then why can't I have multiple wives?

#90  Postby mmmcheezy » Apr 01, 2010 3:13 am

josephchoi wrote:
mmmcheezy wrote:ADULTS ADULTS ADULTS ADULTS ADULTS READ THE GODDAMN THREAD WE ARE ALL TALKING ABOUT ADULTS EXCEPT YOU. /shouting.

We're all just going down the fallacious slippery slope here! Gay marriage is wrong because it will allow bestiality! and down we go...

Gay marriage is also wrong because it will lead to incestuous marriages, wooooo!
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Re: If gays can marry, then why can't I have multiple wives?

#91  Postby byofrcs » Apr 01, 2010 3:46 am

There is a perfectly good reason to limit it to two people (in same species).

Governmental database schemas.

It's probably cost hundreds of millions to allow the databases to have one party as male and one as female but to allow any arbitrary number of people and certainly to allow non-human species would be a coding nightmare.

Worse than Y2k, worse than Web2.0, worse than Client-Server, worse than the day someone mentioned there is 29 days in February and we had to shift the trilithons one virgin width to the right, worse than the day Khufu, on a bender, thought it would be fun to have something really really big.
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Re: If gays can marry, then why can't I have multiple wives?

#92  Postby xrayzed » Apr 01, 2010 3:47 am

Lion IRC wrote:Why not just dump the concept of marriage all together?

OK.

/end thread
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Re: If gays can marry, then why can't I have multiple wives?

#93  Postby MoonLit » Apr 01, 2010 6:03 am

Lion IRC wrote:Why not just dump the concept of marriage all together? This is getting so boring.


You do know what this thread is about, right? :smug:
If you want to debate the concept of getting rid of marriage completely, feel free to start one.
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Re: If gays can marry, then why can't I have multiple wives?

#94  Postby jim » Apr 01, 2010 6:21 am

I always found it a struggle putting up with one wife, having two or more in the same house would be a fucking nightmare.
I guess I just like having a space that is purely mine, after a hard days work its nice to come home to silence and total relaxation, with a bunch of wives I cant see that ever happening.
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Re: If gays can marry, then why can't I have multiple wives?

#95  Postby Jbags » Apr 01, 2010 6:34 am

I for one would like to see the concept of marriage stick around in some shape or form. I live with a long term girlfriend and I genuinely look forward to one day getting down on one knee... (she's not on these boards, so I feel safe admitting the fact :P )

Feeling the way I do makes me all the more convinced that anyone should be able to do so, same sex or not. I don't think there should be any expectation to do so either, no one should feel "obliged to marry". Its just a choice, and if its open to anyone it should be open to everyone. As far as state involvement is concerned, I understand state recognition is practically necessary for inheritence / tax purposes etc, it adds complication but I think a worthwhile one when it comes to looking after my spouse?

In terms of multiple wives, I'm kind of ambivalent on the subject, but I don't feel strongly about it either way. It doesn't bother me much. I would be upset if (imagining 10 years down the road) my wife told me she wished to marry another man, but that's just me. If it really worked for a couple... who am I to deny them that wish?

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Re: If gays can marry, then why can't I have multiple wives?

#96  Postby xrayzed » Apr 01, 2010 6:44 am

I don't see marriage disappearing anytime soon, although I can see it changing significantly over time. It's a very complex institution that has a range of social, emotional, legal ramifications, quite apart from whatever supposed interest a god might have in the issue.
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Re: If gays can marry, then why can't I have multiple wives?

#97  Postby Tyrannical » Apr 01, 2010 7:11 am

How is having two wives different than one wife and a mistress? Or no wife and just playing the field?
Bigamy laws seem a little silly when we no longer have laws against adultery.
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Re: If gays can marry, then why can't I have multiple wives?

#98  Postby Shrunk » Apr 01, 2010 10:38 am

One point that I don't think has been raised yet: There is a difference between polygamy in principle and in practice. For instance, as it is practiced in Islamic societies it is one aspect of a systematic and culturally sanctioned attitude of subjugation and oppression of women, so on that basis it can be argued to be immoral.

xrayzed wrote:I don't see marriage disappearing anytime soon, although I can see it changing significantly over time. It's a very complex institution that has a range of social, emotional, legal ramifications, quite apart from whatever supposed interest a god might have in the issue.


And, of course, it has changed significantly already. As I mentioned, it seems the current status of monogamy as the accepted model is only a recent development.

byofrcs wrote:There is a perfectly good reason to limit it to two people (in same species).

Governmental database schemas.

It's probably cost hundreds of millions to allow the databases to have one party as male and one as female but to allow any arbitrary number of people and certainly to allow non-human species would be a coding nightmare.

Worse than Y2k, worse than Web2.0, worse than Client-Server, worse than the day someone mentioned there is 29 days in February and we had to shift the trilithons one virgin width to the right, worse than the day Khufu, on a bender, thought it would be fun to have something really really big.


And that's a perfectly good, pragmatic argument. However, it still doesn't justify treating polygamy as a criminal act. In most US states, it is considered a felony.
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Re: If gays can marry, then why can't I have multiple wives?

#99  Postby purplerat » Apr 01, 2010 9:24 pm

xrayzed wrote:I don’t think the argument against polygamy/polyandry on legal grounds holds up.

The issue of inheritance for multiple spouses isn’t any more complex than the issue of inheritance for multiple children. The basic principle in the absence of a will would be an equal division of property between the surviving spouses.

What if a man has four wives, and each of those wives has additional spouses? That’s irrelevant – they don’t have a legal claim on the inheritance because their legal relationship based on marriage is with the surviving wives, not the deceased husband.

The issue of who raises the children would default to the surviving parent. Certainly this could be challenged by other members of extended family, but this is not novel. It occurs today, for example with grandparents who seek custody where the parents are unfit to raise the children.

The “circular relationship” problem doesn’t pose any additional problems, Suppose two wives share two husbands, and one of the wives dies. Her surviving husbands have an equal share of the inheritance, and the surviving wife has none, because she does not have a legal relationship based on marriage with her.

There may be compelling reasons for opposing polygamy/polyandry, but legal complexities isn't one of them.

You say those things so matter-of-factually but they are really assumptions of how such a system could work. For example you make the assumption that two wives sharing two husbands would mean only the men are married to the women and vice versa. But would the women be married to each other by proxy and thus would the surviving wife also have claim to 1/3 of the inheritance. You could have a compelling argument either way. Many states have legal statutes of community property in a marriage. Ignoring gender lets say you have spouse Z who is married to X and Y, but X and Y are not married. Z has community property with both but do X and Y also share in the portion of each others community property with Z. If so what percentage? Is everything equal 1/3rds or does X only get 1/4 of Y's property? Or does X get none of Y's? These are all things that would have to be defined within the law.

You'd also have to take into consideration how 1:1 marriage protects to some degree against abuses of the institute of marriage; i.e. people getting married for tax, insurance, immigration, etc purposes. Currently with 1:1 marriage a person is limited to how much they could abuse such a system. In fact the limitation is such that it's not really even an abuse because they are using something which is in limited quantity (the ability to marry) to gain from it. But with many:many marriage what's to stop a group of 20 people from all marrying each other to get a single family rate for insurance? Or 1 US citizen marrying an indefinite number of immigrants to get them legal status in the country. Once again these are things that would have to be considered.
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Re: If gays can marry, then why can't I have multiple wives?

#100  Postby Scarlett » Apr 01, 2010 10:17 pm

No offence intended to the OP as I have no idea what he looks like BUT, it strikes me that the guys who are heard saying they want several women/wives would often struggle getting one :ask:
"The stupid bitch"

" ..the Scottish bitch.."

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