Is there ANY freedom of speech any more?

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Re: Is there ANY freedom of speech any more?

#41  Postby Seabass » Aug 22, 2020 7:09 pm

Mike_L wrote:The Leftists are more than happy with Twitter censorship, Facebook censorship, YouTube censorship, Google censorship, etc -- because, as Project Veritas has repeatedly demonstrated, the censorship is mostly at the expense of conservatives.
One can be quite certain that if it were mostly the Left being defunded, deplatformed, canceled, shadow-banned and pushed down in search listings, that the tune would change very quickly. They'd be tearing out their green hair and slutwalking all the way to Washington in outrage.


Left? What left? There is no left in the US—it got censored, cancelled, deplatformed, and witch-hunted out of existence during the Cold War.
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Re: Is there ANY freedom of speech any more?

#42  Postby sean_w » Aug 22, 2020 8:07 pm

--ouch
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Re: Is there ANY freedom of speech any more?

#43  Postby Hermit » Aug 22, 2020 10:01 pm

Mike_L wrote:
felltoearth wrote:Is it surprising that the British are running a counter intelligence/information program? I’m kinda like, yeah, that’s what the army does.

Sure, but if it's established that Twitter is a tool of governments (a willing tool, along with Facebook, Microsoft and Google) then the extent of its independence becomes questionable. Maybe it's then no better than (gasp!) RT.com!

If Twitter, along with Facebook, Microsoft and Google is, as you say. a willing tool of governments, it cannot be said that its (or their) independence becomes questionable. What can be said, is that they are exercising the discretion every commercial outfit has, to decide or change their editorial policies. This has nothing to do with freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is what governments allow you to say, not what privately owned outfits allow on their turf. This is why you can rip shit out of Trump and Biden to your heart's content in the USA. Some commercial enterprises will not publish your opinion. Plenty will. Neither case has anything to do with freedom of speech.

This has something to do with freedom of speech: If you try to rip shit out of certain other heads of government in countries I won't name, chances are that you'll finish up with food poisoning or suffer a fall out of a third floor window. If you are lucky, you'll merely finish up with trumped up charges of fraud and/or corruption.
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Re: Is there ANY freedom of speech any more?

#44  Postby laklak » Aug 22, 2020 10:08 pm

Hermit wrote: ... chances are that you'll finish up with food poisoning or suffer a fall out of a third floor window.


Is coincidence only, tovarisch.
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Re: Is there ANY freedom of speech any more?

#45  Postby SafeAsMilk » Aug 23, 2020 1:21 am

Hermit wrote:
Mike_L wrote:
felltoearth wrote:Is it surprising that the British are running a counter intelligence/information program? I’m kinda like, yeah, that’s what the army does.

Sure, but if it's established that Twitter is a tool of governments (a willing tool, along with Facebook, Microsoft and Google) then the extent of its independence becomes questionable. Maybe it's then no better than (gasp!) RT.com!

If Twitter, along with Facebook, Microsoft and Google is, as you say. a willing tool of governments, it cannot be said that its (or their) independence becomes questionable. What can be said, is that they are exercising the discretion every commercial outfit has, to decide or change their editorial policies. This has nothing to do with freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is what governments allow you to say, not what privately owned outfits allow on their turf. This is why you can rip shit out of Trump and Biden to your heart's content in the USA. Some commercial enterprises will not publish your opinion. Plenty will. Neither case has anything to do with freedom of speech.

This has something to do with freedom of speech: If you try to rip shit out of certain other heads of government in countries I won't name, chances are that you'll finish up with food poisoning or suffer a fall out of a third floor window. If you are lucky, you'll merely finish up with trumped up charges of fraud and/or corruption.

Will jamest read this? Maybe. Will he understand it? Probably not.
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Re: Is there ANY freedom of speech any more?

#46  Postby Spinozasgalt » Aug 23, 2020 3:08 am

Mike just wants to legitimise RT, that's all. And complain about people with brightly coloured hair, for some reason.

Not quite sure what jamest is talking about though. What's the new free speech crisis? A lot of what he's saying seems to be "I wanna say what I think, but I don't want people criticising me for it." That's just what you get when people can have their say, I'm sorry.
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Re: Is there ANY freedom of speech any more?

#47  Postby Mike_L » Aug 23, 2020 7:06 am

Hermit wrote:
Mike_L wrote:
felltoearth wrote:Is it surprising that the British are running a counter intelligence/information program? I’m kinda like, yeah, that’s what the army does.

Sure, but if it's established that Twitter is a tool of governments (a willing tool, along with Facebook, Microsoft and Google) then the extent of its independence becomes questionable. Maybe it's then no better than (gasp!) RT.com!

If Twitter, along with Facebook, Microsoft and Google is, as you say. a willing tool of governments, it cannot be said that its (or their) independence becomes questionable. What can be said, is that they are exercising the discretion every commercial outfit has, to decide or change their editorial policies. This has nothing to do with freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is what governments allow you to say, not what privately owned outfits allow on their turf. This is why you can rip shit out of Trump and Biden to your heart's content in the USA. Some commercial enterprises will not publish your opinion. Plenty will. Neither case has anything to do with freedom of speech.

The question is whether or not that discretion is influenced by or constrained by the government. Are governments merely using the platform, with or without the knowledge of its owners, as a tool for their propaganda (as with the UK's 77th Brigade and Integrity Initiative), or are governments also exerting control over which voices can be heard on that platform...?

...
With less than three months before US elections, Twitter has all but memory-holed RT and other state-run media – even searching their handles draws a blank. For a supposedly free-market country, the US sure hates competition.
The official Twitter accounts for RT, Xinhua, and other media outlets owned by certain governments the US doesn’t like are being pushed into the shadows, confirming that Twitter is getting serious about its role as one of the chief enforcers of US informational supremacy.
...
--
https://www.rt.com/op-ed/498446-twitter-shadowbans-rt-propaganda-fail/

The article goes on to detail the extent to which these accounts are suppressed by Twitter. And...
...
Twitter explained its failure to slap a scarlet letter on the BBC, NPR, or Voice of America – all state-run media organizations – by claiming these outfits maintained some degree of editorial independence. While many at the time called this out as the egregious double standard it was, that was before learning how deeply Twitter intended to bury its victims.
...


And all of this less than a year after Twitter (along with Facebook, Microsoft and Google) dutifully answered to the FBI, the Department of Homeland Security and the Director of National Intelligence’s office "to coordinate a strategy to secure the 2020 elections".

But no, it cannot be said that their independence is questionable! :roll:

Hermit wrote:
This has something to do with freedom of speech: If you try to rip shit out of certain other heads of government in countries I won't name, chances are that you'll finish up with food poisoning or suffer a fall out of a third floor window. If you are lucky, you'll merely finish up with trumped up charges of fraud and/or corruption.

This also has something to do with freedom of speech: If you try to expose war crimes of a country I won't name, chances are that you'll finish up in a maximum security prison awaiting extradition to the country that committed those war crimes. If you are lucky, you'll merely finish up with trumped up charges of rape.
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Re: Is there ANY freedom of speech any more?

#48  Postby Hermit » Aug 23, 2020 7:29 am

Mike_L wrote:
Hermit wrote:
Mike_L wrote:
felltoearth wrote:Is it surprising that the British are running a counter intelligence/information program? I’m kinda like, yeah, that’s what the army does.

Sure, but if it's established that Twitter is a tool of governments (a willing tool, along with Facebook, Microsoft and Google) then the extent of its independence becomes questionable. Maybe it's then no better than (gasp!) RT.com!

If Twitter, along with Facebook, Microsoft and Google is, as you say. a willing tool of governments, it cannot be said that its (or their) independence becomes questionable. What can be said, is that they are exercising the discretion every commercial outfit has, to decide or change their editorial policies. This has nothing to do with freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is what governments allow you to say, not what privately owned outfits allow on their turf. This is why you can rip shit out of Trump and Biden to your heart's content in the USA. Some commercial enterprises will not publish your opinion. Plenty will. Neither case has anything to do with freedom of speech.

The question is whether or not that discretion is influenced by or constrained by the government.

No, Mike, that is not the question. The question is "Is there ANY freedom of speech any more?" And to answer that question you need to be clear about what Freedom of speech is, and what freedom of speech is not. You do not appear to have bothered reading post #3 and #5, so I repeat from post #3: "...you are conflating freedom of speech, which is a matter of law, with decisions made by commercial enterprises. The latter have belatedly decided to not let conspiracy nuts like David Icke and the Qanon mob use their facilities as an outlet for their crap. In these cases their freedom of speech is not constrained by law. Youtube, Twitter, Facebook and others have merely made a commercially motivated change of editorial policy, saying in effect: "Not in our house. Spout your rubbish elsewhere."" From post #5: "Freedom of speech is, as the Merriam Webster dictionary put it, "the legal right to express one's opinions freely". Which arenas allow you to say whatever you want to say on their site is a matter of their editorial policy."

I presented the same distinction for a third time in post #43 - in the paragraph you snipped. Read it. Then we shall go from there, shall we?
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Re: Is there ANY freedom of speech any more?

#49  Postby Mike_L » Aug 23, 2020 10:00 am

I did read posts #3 and #5, and I didn't snip any paragraph in my quote of your post #43.

Hermit wrote:...you are conflating freedom of speech, which is a matter of law, with decisions made by commercial enterprises.

Nowhere have made I the claim that commercial enterprises infringe on legally-guaranteed freedom of speech, or that the limitations they impose on their own platforms amount to such.
I said in my first post in the thread (#17) that there's "censorship" of conservative viewpoints on Twitter, Facebook, etc. I use the word five times.
Looking at the Wikipedia introductory paragraph on censorship:
Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication, or other information, on the basis that such material is considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or "inconvenient." Censorship can be conducted by governments, private institutions, and other controlling bodies.

So yes... through censorship, the private enterprise that is Twitter suppresses (on its own platform) speech that it doesn't like. But that doesn't amount to Twitter suppressing legally-defined, government-guaranteed free speech. I never claimed that it was doing so.
My only claim with respect to US government agencies was that they might be influencing Twitter's editorial policy, specifically the decision to reduce the visibility of the RT.com and Xinhua accounts.
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Re: Is there ANY freedom of speech any more?

#50  Postby Cito di Pense » Aug 23, 2020 1:35 pm

Mike_L wrote:
So yes... through censorship, the private enterprise that is Twitter suppresses (on its own platform) speech that it doesn't like. But that doesn't amount to Twitter suppressing legally-defined, government-guaranteed free speech. I never claimed that it was doing so.
My only claim with respect to US government agencies was that they might be influencing Twitter's editorial policy, specifically the decision to reduce the visibility of the RT.com and Xinhua accounts.


FFS, Mike, Twitter can't suppress or promote the speech of anyone who doesn't feel like posting on Twitter. What we are talking about here is the promotion or amplification of media outlets via Twitter. You or anyone can demand that RT or Xinhua be given a platform anytime and anywhere their fanboys might like, and be told to buzz the fuck off with that complaint. You can't do much here to increase the visibility of RT.com. Anyone who wants to can dial up the URL of either of those cesspools, but promoting them elsewhere using commercial entities does not generate free speech issues for any but their sorry-ass fanboys.

Mike_L wrote:
Nowhere have made I the claim that commercial enterprises infringe on legally-guaranteed freedom of speech, or that the limitations they impose on their own platforms amount to such.


Oh, do fuck off, Mike. Proving that you've nowhere made some claim is a big job and a thankless task, and one not to be taken very seriously. Nobody presently trying to engage with you expects to be able to do so; all we can do is explain why we don't take you seriously.

Mike_L wrote:
Looking at the Wikipedia introductory paragraph on censorship:


And one more time. Censorship is of ideas and is not about the withholding of free advertising, which is what happens on Twitter. No ideas get examined on Twitter.
Last edited by Cito di Pense on Aug 23, 2020 1:48 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Is there ANY freedom of speech any more?

#51  Postby SafeAsMilk » Aug 23, 2020 1:44 pm

Mike_L wrote:
My only claim with respect to US government agencies was that they might be influencing Twitter's editorial policy, specifically the decision to reduce the visibility of the RT.com and Xinhua accounts.

So you entered this thread completely off topic in order to have an excuse to shill for RT, you say?
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Re: Is there ANY freedom of speech any more?

#52  Postby felltoearth » Aug 23, 2020 2:08 pm

SafeAsMilk wrote:
Mike_L wrote:
My only claim with respect to US government agencies was that they might be influencing Twitter's editorial policy, specifically the decision to reduce the visibility of the RT.com and Xinhua accounts.

So you entered this thread completely off topic in order to have an excuse to shill for RT, you say?


Mike is upset because RT.com’s disinformation doesn’t get the same respect as Washington Post’s disinformation. He doesn’t use those words, but that’s basically it.
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Re: Is there ANY freedom of speech any more?

#53  Postby Mike_L » Aug 23, 2020 3:01 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
Mike_L wrote:
So yes... through censorship, the private enterprise that is Twitter suppresses (on its own platform) speech that it doesn't like. But that doesn't amount to Twitter suppressing legally-defined, government-guaranteed free speech. I never claimed that it was doing so.
My only claim with respect to US government agencies was that they might be influencing Twitter's editorial policy, specifically the decision to reduce the visibility of the RT.com and Xinhua accounts.


FFS, Mike, Twitter can't suppress or promote the speech of anyone who doesn't feel like posting on Twitter. What we are talking about here is the promotion or amplification of media outlets via Twitter. You or anyone can demand that RT or Xinhua be given a platform anytime and anywhere their fanboys might like, and be told to buzz the fuck off with that complaint. You can't do much here to increase the visibility of RT.com. Anyone who wants to can dial up the URL of either of those cesspools, but promoting them elsewhere using commercial entities does not generate free speech issues for any but their sorry-ass fanboys.

Mike_L wrote:
Nowhere have made I the claim that commercial enterprises infringe on legally-guaranteed freedom of speech, or that the limitations they impose on their own platforms amount to such.


Oh, do fuck off, Mike. Proving that you've nowhere made some claim is a big job and a thankless task, and one not to be taken very seriously. Nobody presently trying to engage with you expects to be able to do so; all we can do is explain why we don't take you seriously.

Mike_L wrote:
Looking at the Wikipedia introductory paragraph on censorship:


And one more time. Censorship is of ideas and is not about the withholding of free advertising, which is what happens on Twitter. No ideas get examined on Twitter.
(Emphasis added)
Actually, no. Not just ideas.
"Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication, or other information..."
Twitter is public communication.
The remainder of your post mixes up a "demand" that I never made with a "complaint" that's actually just an observation of Twitter bias.

"...all we can do is explain why we don't take you seriously."

Thank god for that at least.
________________________________________

SafeAsMilk wrote:
Mike_L wrote:
My only claim with respect to US government agencies was that they might be influencing Twitter's editorial policy, specifically the decision to reduce the visibility of the RT.com and Xinhua accounts.

So you entered this thread completely off topic in order to have an excuse to shill for RT, you say?

RT didn't come into it until my fourth post in the thread (on page 2). The "shilling" just proceeded naturally from that, as it always does.
________________________________________

felltoearth wrote:Mike is upset because RT.com’s disinformation doesn’t get the same respect as Washington Post’s disinformation. He doesn’t use those words, but that’s basically it.

I can't argue with that.
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Re: Is there ANY freedom of speech any more?

#54  Postby chairman bill » Aug 23, 2020 3:08 pm

These days you can't say you're English without getting thrown in gaol. These days.
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Re: Is there ANY freedom of speech any more?

#55  Postby Cito di Pense » Aug 23, 2020 4:25 pm

Mike_L wrote:
Twitter is public communication.


It's not publicly-funded. You've gotten something that's openly available by loading its URL into a web browser or app mixed up with a public service. If your government filtered out requests to load the Twitter http address at your gateway router, you could call it censorship.

Don't censor yourself, Mike. Tell us what you really think, instead of just trolling those who call you on your bullshit.
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Re: Is there ANY freedom of speech any more?

#56  Postby SafeAsMilk » Aug 23, 2020 4:44 pm

SafeAsMilk wrote:
Mike_L wrote:
My only claim with respect to US government agencies was that they might be influencing Twitter's editorial policy, specifically the decision to reduce the visibility of the RT.com and Xinhua accounts.

So you entered this thread completely off topic in order to have an excuse to shill for RT, you say?

RT didn't come into it until my fourth post in the thread (on page 2).

What do you want, a cookie for having enough self control to wait four posts to overtly peddle your tired wares?

The "shilling" just proceeded naturally from that, as it always does.
.

Yes, you naturally shill for RT every chance you get, in this case you even ignored the thread topic in order to do it :lol:
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Re: Is there ANY freedom of speech any more?

#57  Postby laklak » Aug 23, 2020 5:42 pm

Can't you find a Speaker's Corner and spout pretty much whatever nonsense you like? I've seen some fucking whackjobs in Hyde Park over the years.
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Re: Is there ANY freedom of speech any more?

#58  Postby Mike_L » Aug 23, 2020 6:25 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
Mike_L wrote:
Twitter is public communication.


It's not publicly-funded. You've gotten something that's openly available by loading its URL into a web browser or app mixed up with a public service.

"Communication in public", then. I never said that Twitter was publicly funded.

If your government filtered out requests to load the Twitter http address at your gateway router, you could call it censorship.

No. Censorship is not the sole preserve of government. From the Wikipedia entry again...

Censorship can be conducted by governments, private institutions, and other controlling bodies.


Repeating what I said in post #49:

Mike_L wrote:So yes... through censorship, the private enterprise that is Twitter suppresses (on its own platform) speech that it doesn't like. But that doesn't amount to Twitter suppressing legally-defined, government-guaranteed free speech. I never claimed that it was doing so.


Cito di Pense wrote:Don't censor yourself, Mike. Tell us what you really think...

#x*X#*x!!!!!
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Re: Is there ANY freedom of speech any more?

#59  Postby Mike_L » Aug 23, 2020 6:32 pm

SafeAsMilk wrote:Yes, you naturally shill for RT every chance you get, in this case you even ignored the thread topic in order to do it :lol:

RT was never a subject in the thread until you made it one. Twitter was mentioned in post #3 (by Hermit) and became part of the discussion. RT arrived (so to speak) in the form of an article about Twitter (post #30). It was an article by RT, not an article about RT -- and it followed other posts about Twitter.
So it wasn't off-topic. And, jokes and sarcasm aside, it wasn't "shilling for RT" -- unless merely posting the content of an article is now considered shilling for its source. If that's the case, then everyone who posts a link to a news website is shilling for that news organisation.

What do you want, a cookie for having enough self control to wait four posts to overtly peddle your tired wares?

Just leave me with the whole box of cookies.
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Re: Is there ANY freedom of speech any more?

#60  Postby Cito di Pense » Aug 23, 2020 6:55 pm

Mike_L wrote:
If your government filtered out requests to load the Twitter http address at your gateway router, you could call it censorship.

No. Censorship is not the sole preserve of government. From the Wikipedia entry again...

Censorship can be conducted by governments, private institutions, and other controlling bodies.





We're starting to lose sight of how Twitter's action does anything more than denying some people the privilege of saying whatever the fuck they like wherever they like. Is that the privilege you are trying to defend? As I said before, when censorship is of ideas, you should be able to defend the ideas you think are being censored with something more than "people should be free to say whatever the fuck they like". There are some smart people who know how to try to defend these ideas and make an effort to do so. You're not one of those.

Mike_L wrote:
One can be quite certain that if it were mostly the Left being defunded, deplatformed, canceled, shadow-banned and pushed down in search listings, that the tune would change very quickly.


Ah, OK, then. Let's consider stuff you imply is being censored. Who's been shafted? Are there some leftish ideas you think are in the market for being defunded, deplatformed, canceled, etc? Out with it, Mike. Don't censor yourself. Promote the racist agenda you've always wanted to. Just don't do it, here. If it's not racism, or feminism, or something else leftish, let's hear it.

Mike_L wrote:
felltoearth wrote:
Please outline what you believe is happening here.

A repeat of this...


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