Loss of the written word.
Civilisation ends here?
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Re: Loss of the written word.
#21 
by don't get me started » Feb 05, 2012 2:07 pm
I'm just doing a research project that involves transcribing recorded conversations. I play the video camera through my computer and then write it down in pencil. A friend recommended that I get voice recognition software but it is no good as I have to get, er, get, you know, eve... every, all of the repetition, repetitions, ah, an, all the, you know fillers and false stats, I mean,starts an stuff.
It is the most handwriting that I have done in years, and I'm sure that no-one else would ever be able to read it.
Yeah, I can remember the onset of the digital world. I was here in Japan when I set up my first E-mail account and I used to go downtown once a WEEK, to an internet cafe, and check my mail. Ha...a whole week.
If I didn't check my mail for a week now, there would be all kinds of trouble.
It is the most handwriting that I have done in years, and I'm sure that no-one else would ever be able to read it.
Yeah, I can remember the onset of the digital world. I was here in Japan when I set up my first E-mail account and I used to go downtown once a WEEK, to an internet cafe, and check my mail. Ha...a whole week.
If I didn't check my mail for a week now, there would be all kinds of trouble.
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Re: Loss of the written word.
#22 by campermon » Feb 05, 2012 2:39 pm
Varangian wrote:...and that's one of the points here - your letters will probably be around for decades, while your emails to her will be lost sooner or later.
Aye!
I wrote hundreds of programs in BASIC on my Amstrad 6128 computer as a kid. All saved to disks. Sadly, I chucked it out over 10 years ago now. Should have kept it as an antique piece.
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Re: Loss of the written word.
#23 by Mike_L » Feb 05, 2012 3:00 pm
The History Channel series Life After People comes to mind...
Acid-free, lignin-free paper (e.g. the high quality stuff they use in encyclopaedias) will last longer than cheap paper pulp (e.g. newspapers), but even the best paper will deteriorate eventually... unless, perhaps, it's laminated between two pieces of glass.
And almost all paintings deteriorate eventually... the linseed of oil paintings is subject to yellowing and embrittlement (with eventual cracking), the calcium carbonate plaster of frescos will eventually crumble, acrylics soften, watercolour paper deteriorates, etc. Many metals will corrode.
Glass artworks (ornaments, stained glass pictures, etc.) are very resistant to chemical degradation (e.g. oxidation) and to the deleterious effects of microbes (mildew and other fungi, bacteria, etc.). If they aren't shattered (either by impact or by temperature extremes) they'll probably prove to be pretty durable. (And that story about glass slowly running / flowing down into a puddle is just a myth).
Can't remember all the details of the History Channel series, but I think they concluded that items fashioned in glass, gold and granite* (the three g's) would last longest.
(* Mount Rushmore was mentioned)
Acid-free, lignin-free paper (e.g. the high quality stuff they use in encyclopaedias) will last longer than cheap paper pulp (e.g. newspapers), but even the best paper will deteriorate eventually... unless, perhaps, it's laminated between two pieces of glass.
And almost all paintings deteriorate eventually... the linseed of oil paintings is subject to yellowing and embrittlement (with eventual cracking), the calcium carbonate plaster of frescos will eventually crumble, acrylics soften, watercolour paper deteriorates, etc. Many metals will corrode.
Glass artworks (ornaments, stained glass pictures, etc.) are very resistant to chemical degradation (e.g. oxidation) and to the deleterious effects of microbes (mildew and other fungi, bacteria, etc.). If they aren't shattered (either by impact or by temperature extremes) they'll probably prove to be pretty durable. (And that story about glass slowly running / flowing down into a puddle is just a myth).
Can't remember all the details of the History Channel series, but I think they concluded that items fashioned in glass, gold and granite* (the three g's) would last longest.
(* Mount Rushmore was mentioned)
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Re: Loss of the written word.
#24 by campermon » Feb 05, 2012 3:08 pm
Mike_L wrote:The History Channel series Life After People comes to mind...
Acid-free, lignin-free paper (e.g. the high quality stuff they use in encyclopaedias) will last longer than cheap paper pulp (e.g. newspapers), but even the best paper will deteriorate eventually... unless, perhaps, it's laminated between two pieces of glass.
And almost all paintings deteriorate eventually... the linseed of oil paintings is subject to yellowing and embrittlement (with eventual cracking), the calcium carbonate plaster of frescos will eventually crumble, acrylics soften, watercolour paper deteriorates, etc. Many metals will corrode.
Glass artworks (ornaments, stained glass pictures, etc.) are very resistant to chemical degradation (e.g. oxidation) and to the deleterious effects of microbes (mildew and other fungi, bacteria, etc.). If they aren't shattered (either by impact or by temperature extremes) they'll probably prove to be pretty durable. (And that story about glass slowly running / flowing down into a puddle is just a myth).
Can't remember all the details of the History Channel series, but I think they concluded that items fashioned in glass, gold and granite* (the three g's) would last longest.
(* Mount Rushmore was mentioned)
Funnily enough, I watched this the other week. Can't remember if this was the same link;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBtHICMmDJk
It was very interesting.
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Re: Loss of the written word.
#26 by laklak » Feb 05, 2012 3:28 pm
txtspk is def way 4wrd!
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The sky is falling! The sky is falling! - Chicken Little
I never go without my dinner. No one ever does, except vegetarians and people like that - Oscar Wilde
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Re: Loss of the written word.
#27 by campermon » Feb 05, 2012 3:29 pm
ROFL!
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Re: Loss of the written word.
#28 by orpheus » Feb 05, 2012 4:30 pm
One can easily take a personal stand against the trend, though. I write lots of letters, and virtually everything I write I do with a fountain pen. I enjoy the experience. And the switch to fountain pens improved my penmanship tremendously, and also eased a lot of physical discomfort associated with long stretches of writing.
The quality of my writing itself is also better with pen and paper. It slows me down, so I have to think about the words I use.
The really interesting thing is the response I often get from recipients of my letters. They seem rather moved by them. I don't know if it's that letters are a little uncommon now, or that the effort is obvious (though it's not really much of an effort for me), or the fact of holding a physical object that I also held (a nice thing between friends at a distance). Whatever the reason, I've found the reactions universally positive.
Edit: It could also be that most of my friends are about my age, so they too remember a time of only letters for written communication. Could be a nostalgia thing.
The quality of my writing itself is also better with pen and paper. It slows me down, so I have to think about the words I use.
The really interesting thing is the response I often get from recipients of my letters. They seem rather moved by them. I don't know if it's that letters are a little uncommon now, or that the effort is obvious (though it's not really much of an effort for me), or the fact of holding a physical object that I also held (a nice thing between friends at a distance). Whatever the reason, I've found the reactions universally positive.
Edit: It could also be that most of my friends are about my age, so they too remember a time of only letters for written communication. Could be a nostalgia thing.
Ognuno sta solo sul cuor della terra
trafitto da un raggio di sole:
ed è subito sera
-Salvatore Quasimodo
trafitto da un raggio di sole:
ed è subito sera
-Salvatore Quasimodo
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Re: Loss of the written word.
#29 by johnbrandt » Feb 05, 2012 10:21 pm
The only thing is that emails and the like are impersonal...they're just words on a screen, a file stored in the hard drive somewhere.
Find a letter from your grandfather, and old birthday card from when you were a kid, or a letter from some friend who has died many years ago, or look at a 100 year old recipe book like some of the ones my wife has had handed down to her, and there are notes and pages written by hand, maybe just scribbles in the margins, but you get a feeling deep down that someone a century ago sat and wrote that with their own hand...especially if it's been done in ink by a spidery nib pen. You see every little smudge, every little line where they started to run out of ink and had to re-dip it to continue. It's a physical thing rather than just an emotionless image on a screen.
It's been said that a hand-written note or letter carries much greater personal weight with the recipient than an email or e-card, as someone has had to sit down and choose some paper or a card, and physically take the time to write it carefully and neatly (or not so neatly
) and then take the time to go out and mail it off to you. It does mean more than a quick electronic message of some kind hastily typed out and a quick stab of the send button.
Find a letter from your grandfather, and old birthday card from when you were a kid, or a letter from some friend who has died many years ago, or look at a 100 year old recipe book like some of the ones my wife has had handed down to her, and there are notes and pages written by hand, maybe just scribbles in the margins, but you get a feeling deep down that someone a century ago sat and wrote that with their own hand...especially if it's been done in ink by a spidery nib pen. You see every little smudge, every little line where they started to run out of ink and had to re-dip it to continue. It's a physical thing rather than just an emotionless image on a screen.
It's been said that a hand-written note or letter carries much greater personal weight with the recipient than an email or e-card, as someone has had to sit down and choose some paper or a card, and physically take the time to write it carefully and neatly (or not so neatly
) and then take the time to go out and mail it off to you. It does mean more than a quick electronic message of some kind hastily typed out and a quick stab of the send button."One could spend their life looking for the perfect cherry blossom...and it would not be a wasted life"
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Re: Loss of the written word.
#30 by orpheus » Feb 05, 2012 10:45 pm
johnbrandt wrote:The only thing is that emails and the like are impersonal...they're just words on a screen, a file stored in the hard drive somewhere.
Find a letter from your grandfather, and old birthday card from when you were a kid, or a letter from some friend who has died many years ago, or look at a 100 year old recipe book like some of the ones my wife has had handed down to her, and there are notes and pages written by hand, maybe just scribbles in the margins, but you get a feeling deep down that someone a century ago sat and wrote that with their own hand...especially if it's been done in ink by a spidery nib pen. You see every little smudge, every little line where they started to run out of ink and had to re-dip it to continue. It's a physical thing rather than just an emotionless image on a screen.
It's been said that a hand-written note or letter carries much greater personal weight with the recipient than an email or e-card, as someone has had to sit down and choose some paper or a card, and physically take the time to write it carefully and neatly (or not so neatly
Ognuno sta solo sul cuor della terra
trafitto da un raggio di sole:
ed è subito sera
-Salvatore Quasimodo
trafitto da un raggio di sole:
ed è subito sera
-Salvatore Quasimodo
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Re: Loss of the written word.
#31 by DougC » Feb 05, 2012 11:03 pm
So, was the first victim if the e-age the pen-pal?
I love the phisicality of the humble paperback, the C.D. or record (moved house recently, found some old cassetts), even DVD's. it may be a generational thing (hell, I'm only 39!) but these seem to exist. Downloads and e-books do not. Just noughts and ones trapped on a drive or stored in the void.
Anyone remember the BBC Domesday Project? I remember my school being involved in the 1980's. They nearly lost the ability to read that as the tech advanced.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_Domesday_Project
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_Domesday_Reloaded
I love the phisicality of the humble paperback, the C.D. or record (moved house recently, found some old cassetts), even DVD's. it may be a generational thing (hell, I'm only 39!) but these seem to exist. Downloads and e-books do not. Just noughts and ones trapped on a drive or stored in the void.
Anyone remember the BBC Domesday Project? I remember my school being involved in the 1980's. They nearly lost the ability to read that as the tech advanced.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_Domesday_Project
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_Domesday_Reloaded
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To be, is to do (Sartre)
Do be do be do (Sinatra)
SUBWAY(1985) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tb-GvpCUwDw
To be, is to do (Sartre)
Do be do be do (Sinatra)
SUBWAY(1985) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tb-GvpCUwDw
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Re: Loss of the written word.
#32 by johnbrandt » Feb 05, 2012 11:42 pm
http://www.penpalworld.com/
Thankfully Pen Pals still exist...this is just one site I found in a quick google search.
Thankfully Pen Pals still exist...this is just one site I found in a quick google search.
"One could spend their life looking for the perfect cherry blossom...and it would not be a wasted life"
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Re: Loss of the written word.
#33 by DougC » Feb 05, 2012 11:46 pm
johnbrandt wrote:http://www.penpalworld.com/
Thankfully Pen Pals still exist...this is just one site I found in a quick google search.
You have restored my faith in mankind.
(a little)
To do, is to be (Socrate)
To be, is to do (Sartre)
Do be do be do (Sinatra)
SUBWAY(1985) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tb-GvpCUwDw
To be, is to do (Sartre)
Do be do be do (Sinatra)
SUBWAY(1985) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tb-GvpCUwDw
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Re: Loss of the written word.
#34 by Spearthrower » Feb 06, 2012 5:12 am
johnbrandt wrote:The only thing is that emails and the like are impersonal...they're just words on a screen, a file stored in the hard drive somewhere.
Find a letter from your grandfather, and old birthday card from when you were a kid, or a letter from some friend who has died many years ago, or look at a 100 year old recipe book like some of the ones my wife has had handed down to her, and there are notes and pages written by hand, maybe just scribbles in the margins, but you get a feeling deep down that someone a century ago sat and wrote that with their own hand...especially if it's been done in ink by a spidery nib pen. You see every little smudge, every little line where they started to run out of ink and had to re-dip it to continue. It's a physical thing rather than just an emotionless image on a screen.
It's been said that a hand-written note or letter carries much greater personal weight with the recipient than an email or e-card, as someone has had to sit down and choose some paper or a card, and physically take the time to write it carefully and neatly (or not so neatly
You mean that the font of electronic text is uniform, but peoples' handwriting is individual?
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I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods.
Religion = Mass Stockholm Syndrome.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods.
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Re: Loss of the written word.
#35 by cavarka9 » Feb 06, 2012 5:52 am
campermon wrote:Varangian wrote:...and that's one of the points here - your letters will probably be around for decades, while your emails to her will be lost sooner or later.
Aye!
I wrote hundreds of programs in BASIC on my Amstrad 6128 computer as a kid. All saved to disks. Sadly, I chucked it out over 10 years ago now. Should have kept it as an antique piece.
you coudnt have known that things were going to change that quickly, no moores law back then.
well, I have always felt that we are not limited by our compassion or by our passion or resources but by our economy.
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Re: Loss of the written word.
#36 by Scot Dutchy » Feb 06, 2012 12:14 pm
I have hundreds of five and quart inch floppies. All my first programmes not in basic but Clipper. No floppy drive though. I have a machine with a three and half inch floppy drive. 
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Re: Loss of the written word.
#37 by johnbrandt » Feb 06, 2012 12:55 pm
I recently came across the problem of "format change" in a smallish but rather important (to me anyway) way.
I write short stories...made a decent bit of money out of it as a contributing story writer to a motorcycle magazine for a while there back in the 1990's...and have kept it up ever since, selling the odd one here and there. I started out typing them with an electronic typewriter, and then once we started buying computers, I started putting them onto 3-1/2" floppy disks.
Our computers changed over the years, and just a while ago while cleaning out our shed, I found a box of about fifty floppy disks...most were system files and old versions of Windows like 3.1, but there were several with "short stories" printed on the label. I was very curious, as there were stories I knew I had written, but couldn't find a hard copy of anywhere. How to read a floppy now though?
I searched Ebay and found a USB connected floppy disk reader, and all was saved. I discovered several stories I had honestly forgotten all about, and transferred everything to my hard drive and also a couple of CD's for backup.
However, I remember seeing a TV show some years back which dealt with this very problem...how much of what is carefully stored away today will be readable in even ten years time? I mean, some current Windows versions don't let you use old programs at all...some of the word documents I had saved on those floppies took a bit of reading I can tell you, having to download old utilities that could make sense of them. Not sure of the format, but it wasn't something that Office wanted to know about anyway...
Conversely, I have no problem picking up a copy of Don Quixote we have which was printed before 1900, or my beautifully printed 1926 copy of Rudyard Kipling verse (oddly enough with a gold swastika, the Hindu symbol, on the spine, front, and also on the front page inside) and reading it right away without formatting issues...
I write short stories...made a decent bit of money out of it as a contributing story writer to a motorcycle magazine for a while there back in the 1990's...and have kept it up ever since, selling the odd one here and there. I started out typing them with an electronic typewriter, and then once we started buying computers, I started putting them onto 3-1/2" floppy disks.
Our computers changed over the years, and just a while ago while cleaning out our shed, I found a box of about fifty floppy disks...most were system files and old versions of Windows like 3.1, but there were several with "short stories" printed on the label. I was very curious, as there were stories I knew I had written, but couldn't find a hard copy of anywhere. How to read a floppy now though?
I searched Ebay and found a USB connected floppy disk reader, and all was saved. I discovered several stories I had honestly forgotten all about, and transferred everything to my hard drive and also a couple of CD's for backup.
However, I remember seeing a TV show some years back which dealt with this very problem...how much of what is carefully stored away today will be readable in even ten years time? I mean, some current Windows versions don't let you use old programs at all...some of the word documents I had saved on those floppies took a bit of reading I can tell you, having to download old utilities that could make sense of them. Not sure of the format, but it wasn't something that Office wanted to know about anyway...
Conversely, I have no problem picking up a copy of Don Quixote we have which was printed before 1900, or my beautifully printed 1926 copy of Rudyard Kipling verse (oddly enough with a gold swastika, the Hindu symbol, on the spine, front, and also on the front page inside) and reading it right away without formatting issues...
"One could spend their life looking for the perfect cherry blossom...and it would not be a wasted life"
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Re: Loss of the written word.
#38 by johnbrandt » Feb 06, 2012 12:57 pm
Scot Dutchy wrote:I have hundreds of five and quart inch floppies. All my first programmes not in basic but Clipper. No floppy drive though. I have a machine with a three and half inch floppy drive.
Ask and ye shall recieve...there's heaps of these things on Ebay. Mine cost about $12. This is just an example:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dynex-3-5-external-USB-Floppy-Disk-Drive-Reader-writer-/290665129068?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43acfde46c#ht_500wt_1156
The thing is...how long will they bother to keep making this sort of device? Try and find a cassette tape player nowadays...
"One could spend their life looking for the perfect cherry blossom...and it would not be a wasted life"
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Re: Loss of the written word.
#39 by orpheus » Feb 06, 2012 2:46 pm
johnbrandt wrote:I recently came across the problem of "format change" in a smallish but rather important (to me anyway) way.
I write short stories...made a decent bit of money out of it as a contributing story writer to a motorcycle magazine for a while there back in the 1990's...and have kept it up ever since, selling the odd one here and there. I started out typing them with an electronic typewriter, and then once we started buying computers, I started putting them onto 3-1/2" floppy disks.
Our computers changed over the years, and just a while ago while cleaning out our shed, I found a box of about fifty floppy disks...most were system files and old versions of Windows like 3.1, but there were several with "short stories" printed on the label. I was very curious, as there were stories I knew I had written, but couldn't find a hard copy of anywhere. How to read a floppy now though?
I searched Ebay and found a USB connected floppy disk reader, and all was saved. I discovered several stories I had honestly forgotten all about, and transferred everything to my hard drive and also a couple of CD's for backup.
However, I remember seeing a TV show some years back which dealt with this very problem...how much of what is carefully stored away today will be readable in even ten years time? I mean, some current Windows versions don't let you use old programs at all...some of the word documents I had saved on those floppies took a bit of reading I can tell you, having to download old utilities that could make sense of them. Not sure of the format, but it wasn't something that Office wanted to know about anyway...
Conversely, I have no problem picking up a copy of Don Quixote we have which was printed before 1900, or my beautifully printed 1926 copy of Rudyard Kipling verse (oddly enough with a gold swastika, the Hindu symbol, on the spine, front, and also on the front page inside) and reading it right away without formatting issues...
Back in the early '90s there was an article in Scientific American about just this sort of thing. They compared the longevity of information stored in various media. Factors taken into account were physical deterioration, obsolescence of physical medium, obsolescence of software (if any). It turned out that the most long-lived way to preserve written as well as accessibility of that text - longest by far - was some form of paper and pencil.
Ognuno sta solo sul cuor della terra
trafitto da un raggio di sole:
ed è subito sera
-Salvatore Quasimodo
trafitto da un raggio di sole:
ed è subito sera
-Salvatore Quasimodo
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Re: Loss of the written word.
#40 by Clive Durdle » Feb 06, 2012 3:00 pm
Somewhere around are some super8 films from the sixties that I put on VHS. I now do not have a VHS player. The film is probably in better condition, but no projector...
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