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Re: Is there a secular argument against abortion?

#21  Postby Animavore » Apr 08, 2014 6:57 pm

michael^3 wrote:
Animavore wrote:
Agrippina wrote:

I'm not getting into this fight again. Been there. I'm just going to say that if men don't want to be responsible for having sex when they don't want anymore kids, they should have a vasectomy, then they don't have to worry about the babies they don't want to support. And that's all I'm going to say about this derail.


This isn't the point he's making. If a woman accidently gets pregnant she can have an abortion. The man has no similar get out clause. What if the man doesn't want the baby and offers the woman money for an abortion and she refuses saying she will have it? Shouldn't he then have an option to say that he offered and she didn't take it and he no longer has responsibiliy?


Exactly. A woman may become pregnant because of an innocent night of fun and then decide to do away with the consequences just because it does not fit with her holiday plans. A man may become father because of an innocent night of fun and then be forced to pay up for 21 years, meaning that for 21 years he will have to get up in the morning and go to work for a baby he never wanted. How's that for "bodily autonomy"?


Well I wouldn't think a woman would make such a decision because it messes her holiday plans. She might make a such a decision because she simply doesn't want that particular man's baby because he is a low-life, say, and she doesn't want him hanging over her for the rest of her life. A man gets no such option.
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Re: Is there a secular argument against abortion?

#22  Postby michael^3 » Apr 08, 2014 6:59 pm

mrjonno wrote:I'm sticking to money/taxes as opposed to morality as its the language that some conservatives seem to understand. I also think if a father is forced to pay for the child they may actually take more of an interest in bringing it up and not turning it into a future unemployed criminal (again better for me)


What about the mental health of a man resenting to have to pay for a child he does not want?
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Re: Is there a secular argument against abortion?

#23  Postby mrjonno » Apr 08, 2014 6:59 pm

michael^3 wrote:
mrjonno wrote:
scott1328 wrote:I agree that a father should be able to opt out of fatherhood, in exactly the same way a woman can opt out of motherhood.


If the father walking away caused the woman to spontaneously abort and not dump the tax payer (rarely the woman as she won't be able to work) with paying the costs of the baby I might agree.


A non-aborted baby will at some point become a tax payer too. That is, there is no proof that a baby on child support will be a net financial loss to society.

In fact, many countries that have liberal views towards abortion are now struggling with dropping birthrates, and their governments are now begging their citizens to make more babies. Look at Denmark.



I'm not talking about babies in general being a burden on the tax payer I'm talking about unwanted by one or more parents /incapable parents having babies that are highly likely to be a burden. Yes there are exceptions but this is about numbers here
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Re: Is there a secular argument against abortion?

#24  Postby michael^3 » Apr 08, 2014 7:00 pm

Shrunk wrote:
michael^3 wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
michael^3 wrote:
Why should the father be forced to pay because of the decision of the mother to keep the baby

Because he is both morally and legally responsible for the child till it becomes an adult


I see no reason why. If the woman is has the freedom to avoid the financial burden of a future baby (by killing it), then the father should have a similar right to renounce it.


By killing it?


By aborting the lump of cells that at some point may turn into a real human being, excuse the hell out of me.
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Re: Is there a secular argument against abortion?

#25  Postby michael^3 » Apr 08, 2014 7:01 pm

mrjonno wrote:
michael^3 wrote:
mrjonno wrote:
scott1328 wrote:I agree that a father should be able to opt out of fatherhood, in exactly the same way a woman can opt out of motherhood.


If the father walking away caused the woman to spontaneously abort and not dump the tax payer (rarely the woman as she won't be able to work) with paying the costs of the baby I might agree.


A non-aborted baby will at some point become a tax payer too. That is, there is no proof that a baby on child support will be a net financial loss to society.

In fact, many countries that have liberal views towards abortion are now struggling with dropping birthrates, and their governments are now begging their citizens to make more babies. Look at Denmark.



I'm not talking about babies in general being a burden on the tax payer I'm talking about unwanted by one or more parents /incapable parents having babies that are highly likely to be a burden. Yes there are exceptions but this is about numbers here


Well either the father pays or somebody else pays. I don't see why one should be worse than the other.
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Re: Is there a secular argument against abortion?

#26  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Apr 08, 2014 7:04 pm

michael^3 wrote:
Shrunk wrote:
michael^3 wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
Because he is both morally and legally responsible for the child till it becomes an adult


I see no reason why. If the woman is has the freedom to avoid the financial burden of a future baby (by killing it), then the father should have a similar right to renounce it.


By killing it?


By aborting the lump of cells that at some point may turn into a real human being, excuse the hell out of me.

Still of the belief that men kill everytime they have a wet dream?
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Re: Is there a secular argument against abortion?

#27  Postby Shrunk » Apr 08, 2014 7:04 pm

michael^3 wrote:
Shrunk wrote:
michael^3 wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
Because he is both morally and legally responsible for the child till it becomes an adult


I see no reason why. If the woman is has the freedom to avoid the financial burden of a future baby (by killing it), then the father should have a similar right to renounce it.


By killing it?


By aborting the lump of cells that at some point may turn into a real human being, excuse the hell out of me.


No, I mean taking the baby that has been born and which he does not want to support and killing it. Shooting it or strangling it or drowning it or something. That's what you're talking about, right? You wouldn't be introducing a completely different subject to this thread that has absolutely nothing to do with your concept of abortion, would you? Because that would be a very silly way to try and argue your case.....
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Re: Is there a secular argument against abortion?

#28  Postby mrjonno » Apr 08, 2014 7:06 pm


Well either the father pays or somebody else pays. I don't see why one should be worse than the other.


One is someone else the other is me (and taxpayers in general). Me paying is always worse
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Re: Is there a secular argument against abortion?

#29  Postby michael^3 » Apr 08, 2014 7:09 pm

Shrunk wrote:No, I mean taking the baby that has been born and which he does not want to support and killing it. Shooting it or strangling it or drowning it or something. That's what you're talking about, right? You wouldn't be introducing a completely different subject to this thread that has absolutely nothing to do with your concept of abortion, would you? Because that would be a very silly way to try and argue your case.....


I'm just pointing out that a logical consequence of accepting abortion (by woman's choice only) is that you also have to accept that men can "renounce" their paternity. If you don't like this consequence, that means you have an argument against abortion.
Last edited by michael^3 on Apr 08, 2014 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is there a secular argument against abortion?

#30  Postby laklak » Apr 08, 2014 7:10 pm

mrjonno wrote:

Well either the father pays or somebody else pays. I don't see why one should be worse than the other.


One is someone else the other is me (and taxpayers in general). Me paying is always worse



You paying is better than me paying. Just sayin.
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Re: Is there a secular argument against abortion?

#31  Postby scott1328 » Apr 08, 2014 7:10 pm

mrjonno wrote:

Well either the father pays or somebody else pays. I don't see why one should be worse than the other.


One is someone else the other is me (and taxpayers in general). Me paying is always worse


So both you and Aggripina are in favor of punishing men for having sex.

Good to know.
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Re: Is there a secular argument against abortion?

#32  Postby michael^3 » Apr 08, 2014 7:11 pm

mrjonno wrote:

Well either the father pays or somebody else pays. I don't see why one should be worse than the other.


One is someone else the other is me (and taxpayers in general). Me paying is always worse


Does that mean that you are in favor of killing orphans?
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Re: Is there a secular argument against abortion?

#33  Postby scott1328 » Apr 08, 2014 7:12 pm

michael^3 wrote:
Shrunk wrote:No, I mean taking the baby that has been born and which he does not want to support and killing it. Shooting it or strangling it or drowning it or something. That's what you're talking about, right? You wouldn't be introducing a completely different subject to this thread that has absolutely nothing to do with your concept of abortion, would you? Because that would be a very silly way to try and argue your case.....


I'm just pointing out that a logical consequence of accepting abortion (by woman's choice only) is that you also have to accept that men can "renounce" their paternity. If you don't like this consequence, that means you have an argument against abortion.

No it doesn't. Just because a policy does not address all the inequality, does not mean that it cannot address some.

Allowing a woman to end terminate her preganancy is orthogonal to the issue of allowing men to opt out of pregnancy.
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Re: Is there a secular argument against abortion?

#34  Postby michael^3 » Apr 08, 2014 7:12 pm

scott1328 wrote:So both you and Aggripina are in favor of punishing men for having sex.

Good to know.


zing

the man-sluts have to be punished :lol:
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Re: Is there a secular argument against abortion?

#35  Postby Shrunk » Apr 08, 2014 7:14 pm

michael^3 wrote:
Shrunk wrote:No, I mean taking the baby that has been born and which he does not want to support and killing it. Shooting it or strangling it or drowning it or something. That's what you're talking about, right? You wouldn't be introducing a completely different subject to this thread that has absolutely nothing to do with your concept of abortion, would you? Because that would be a very silly way to try and argue your case.....


I'm just pointing out that a logical consequence of accepting abortion (by woman's choice only) is that you also have to accept that men can "renounce" their paternity. If you don't like this consequence, that means you have an argument against abortion.


Umm, no. It means you have an argument against requiring men to pay support for children they didn't want. Maybe. The argument for direct bodily autonomy still stands, regardless. Paying money does not impact on one's bodily autonomy.
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Re: Is there a secular argument against abortion?

#36  Postby mrjonno » Apr 08, 2014 7:25 pm

michael^3 wrote:
mrjonno wrote:

Well either the father pays or somebody else pays. I don't see why one should be worse than the other.


One is someone else the other is me (and taxpayers in general). Me paying is always worse


Does that mean that you are in favor of killing orphans?


No I'm favour of making sure we don't have as few orphans in the first place and there are basically two ways to try and achieve that

1) along the lines of tell everyone sex is wrong outside marriage make un-married sex illegal , let babies born out of wedlock starve to death without state assistance

2) assume everyone is going to have sex anyway, encourage contraceptives but when people are unlucky/incompetent encourage them to abort babies they don't want/feel them can look after

Once someone is born and sentient the state/society has a responsibility to them (even if the parents don't care). I accept that as a taxpayer but if I can't pass most the bill to the parents I would rather they weren't born in the first place
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Re: Is there a secular argument against abortion?

#37  Postby Shrunk » Apr 08, 2014 7:30 pm

michael^3 wrote:
Shrunk wrote:No, I mean taking the baby that has been born and which he does not want to support and killing it. Shooting it or strangling it or drowning it or something. That's what you're talking about, right? You wouldn't be introducing a completely different subject to this thread that has absolutely nothing to do with your concept of abortion, would you? Because that would be a very silly way to try and argue your case.....


I'm just pointing out that a logical consequence of accepting abortion (by woman's choice only) is that you also have to accept that men can "renounce" their paternity. If you don't like this consequence, that means you have an argument against abortion.


To make the stupidity of your argument clearer: We don't punish people who commit traffic violations by flogging them or cutting off parts of their body. That doesn't mean it's hypocritical to require them to pay a fine.
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Re: Is there a secular argument against abortion?

#38  Postby Tacticus » Apr 08, 2014 7:53 pm

Agrippina wrote:
I'm not getting into this fight again. Been there. I'm just going to say that if men don't want to be responsible for having sex when they don't want anymore kids, they should have a vasectomy, then they don't have to worry about the babies they don't want to support. And that's all I'm going to say about this derail.


To remain logically and ethically consistent then you must agree that if women don't want to be responsible for having sex when she doesn't want any more kids, she should have her tubes tied.

Do you agree?

This would be the optimal solution for everyone and would eliminate abortion as a societal divider.
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Re: Is there a secular argument against abortion?

#39  Postby Shrunk » Apr 08, 2014 7:56 pm

Tacticus wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
I'm not getting into this fight again. Been there. I'm just going to say that if men don't want to be responsible for having sex when they don't want anymore kids, they should have a vasectomy, then they don't have to worry about the babies they don't want to support. And that's all I'm going to say about this derail.


To remain logically and ethically consistent then you must agree that if women don't want to be responsible for having sex when she doesn't want any more kids, she should have her tubes tied.

Do you agree?

This would be the optimal solution for everyone and would eliminate abortion as a societal divider.


Why do you think Agrippina would have any problem with that? Unless you think she's suggesting men should be forced to have vasectomies, which I don't think she is. :ask:

Anyway, abortion isn't the societal divider so much as pregnancy is.
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Re: Is there a secular argument against abortion?

#40  Postby Acetone » Apr 08, 2014 7:59 pm

Tacticus wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
I'm not getting into this fight again. Been there. I'm just going to say that if men don't want to be responsible for having sex when they don't want anymore kids, they should have a vasectomy, then they don't have to worry about the babies they don't want to support. And that's all I'm going to say about this derail.


To remain logically and ethically consistent then you must agree that if women don't want to be responsible for having sex when she doesn't want any more kids, she should have her tubes tied.

Do you agree?

This would be the optimal solution for everyone and would eliminate abortion as a societal divider.

Should does not mean must. They are different words. I don't see why Agrippina would have any issue with suggesting that a female should get her tubes tied.

If instead you're trying to say we should regulate females getting their tubes tied when they don't want children, then I say wtf is with people being so goddamned interested in what happens to other peoples bodies?
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