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Re: Is there a secular argument against abortion?

#61  Postby Tacticus » Apr 08, 2014 9:15 pm

hackenslash wrote:Those are questions about taking personal responsibility, and have little to do with the questions surrounding abortion. The consequences for each are not equal.


Don't greater consequences for one necessarily impose a greater burden of care in avoiding those consequences?
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Re: Is there a secular argument against abortion?

#62  Postby purplerat » Apr 08, 2014 9:27 pm

Tacticus wrote:That's an ethical disparity which can and should be rectified by allowing the man to offer to pay for the abortion and associated medical care if he does not want the child and thereby be freed of all legal obligation of support should the woman choose to keep the child.

If that simply is your position, much the same as Ani's, that I don't necessarily disagree on that philosophy but it really has nothing to do with whether abortion should be allowed or not. And even if you have a system like that the reality is that the only way a man can prevent children who are biologically his from being born is to make sure he doesn't impregnate somebody in the first place. Woman on the other hand have an additional option. That's just the way it is and I don't see any need to change that.
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Re: Is there a secular argument against abortion?

#63  Postby Regina » Apr 08, 2014 9:35 pm

hackenslash wrote:
Tacticus wrote:In fact the best way for a man to have consequenceless recreational sex is to bang a pregnant chick.


Or a condom, maybe?

I have a much more interesting question than the OP, namely, is it possible to be prolliff and not talk such utter fucking bollocks?

Jeeez, reading this shite I feel I have to check the calendar to find out whether this is 2014 or not. "... the best way for a man to have consequenceless recreational sex is to bang a pregnant chick". Seems sex ed is sadly inadequate in some parts.
Or maybe I missed something crucial and this is about bestiality. :think:
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Re: Is there a secular argument against abortion?

#64  Postby hackenslash » Apr 08, 2014 9:38 pm

Indeed.
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Re: Is there a secular argument against abortion?

#65  Postby Scot Dutchy » Apr 08, 2014 10:18 pm

Regina wrote:
hackenslash wrote:
Tacticus wrote:In fact the best way for a man to have consequenceless recreational sex is to bang a pregnant chick.


Or a condom, maybe?

I have a much more interesting question than the OP, namely, is it possible to be prolliff and not talk such utter fucking bollocks?

Jeeez, reading this shite I feel I have to check the calendar to find out whether this is 2014 or not. "... the best way for a man to have consequenceless recreational sex is to bang a pregnant chick". Seems sex ed is sadly inadequate in some parts.
Or maybe I missed something crucial and this is about bestiality. :think:


I entirely agree. This whole thread seems to me a load of sour grapes by a group that just cant accept they have lost.

It is 2014. For some they act as if the law is open for discussion. It is not now accept it.
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Re: Is there a secular argument against abortion?

#66  Postby surreptitious57 » Apr 08, 2014 10:37 pm

Tacticus wrote:
In fact the best way for a man to have consequenceless recreational sex is to bang a pregnant chick

No it is not because the best way is anal which is statistically far more probable and is
guaranteed absolutely one hundred per safe. You are severely limiting your chances if
you rely on your method which is impractical on at least two and possibly three levels
What this has got to do with abortion I have no idea but I just had to answer it anyway
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Re: Is there a secular argument against abortion?

#67  Postby NineOneFour » Apr 09, 2014 1:43 am

michael^3 wrote:There's one small aspect of abortion that is often forgotten: is the woman has the right to do away with a future child, for whatever reason, just because she doesn't want it, then surely the father should also have the right to do away with the future child if the mother decides to keep it. That is, no more paternity suits. Why should the father be forced to pay because of the decision of the mother to keep the baby?


Because he doesn't have to carry it for nine months, wreck his own body in the process, and endure the shaming from conservatives.

And this "small aspect" is not forgotten, we are constantly reminded of it by Men's Rights Activists.
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Re: Is there a secular argument against abortion?

#68  Postby NineOneFour » Apr 09, 2014 1:44 am

michael^3 wrote:
Shrunk wrote:
michael^3 wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
Because he is both morally and legally responsible for the child till it becomes an adult


I see no reason why. If the woman is has the freedom to avoid the financial burden of a future baby (by killing it), then the father should have a similar right to renounce it.


By killing it?


By aborting the lump of cells that at some point may turn into a real human being, excuse the hell out of me.


No, I don't think I will.
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Re: Is there a secular argument against abortion?

#69  Postby NineOneFour » Apr 09, 2014 1:49 am

Tacticus wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
I'm not getting into this fight again. Been there. I'm just going to say that if men don't want to be responsible for having sex when they don't want anymore kids, they should have a vasectomy, then they don't have to worry about the babies they don't want to support. And that's all I'm going to say about this derail.


To remain logically and ethically consistent then you must agree that if women don't want to be responsible for having sex when she doesn't want any more kids, she should have her tubes tied.

Do you agree?

This would be the optimal solution for everyone and would eliminate abortion as a societal divider.


Why is abortion a "societal divider", again?

(This should be hilarious)
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Re: Is there a secular argument against abortion?

#70  Postby Tacticus » Apr 09, 2014 3:13 am

NineOneFour wrote:
michael^3 wrote:There's one small aspect of abortion that is often forgotten: is the woman has the right to do away with a future child, for whatever reason, just because she doesn't want it, then surely the father should also have the right to do away with the future child if the mother decides to keep it. That is, no more paternity suits. Why should the father be forced to pay because of the decision of the mother to keep the baby?


Because he doesn't have to carry it for nine months, wreck his own body in the process, and endure the shaming from conservatives.

And this "small aspect" is not forgotten, we are constantly reminded of it by Men's Rights Activists.


You completely evaded the question asked, which asked why the father should be forced to pay child support if the mother decides to go through that nine months of body-wrecking shame. She need not do so, that's the point. But if she decides to voluntarily take on that burden, why should the father be forced to accommodate her decision against his financial interests?
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Re: Is there a secular argument against abortion?

#71  Postby Tacticus » Apr 09, 2014 3:18 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tacticus wrote:
In fact the best way for a man to have consequenceless recreational sex is to bang a pregnant chick

No it is not because the best way is anal which is statistically far more probable and is
guaranteed absolutely one hundred per safe. You are severely limiting your chances if
you rely on your method which is impractical on at least two and possibly three levels
What this has got to do with abortion I have no idea but I just had to answer it anyway


Actually, there is a small but real chance of insemination after anal sex with a fertile woman if the semen leaks out of the anus and runs down the perineum to the vagina. The same applies to "withdrawal" and ejaculation on the pubis. Sperm can be remarkably persistent and hardy in seeking the uterus. Any time sperm comes anywhere near the vagina, so long as it's still living there is a risk, however small, that it might find its way into the vagina and uterus and fertilize an egg.

Sex with a pregnant woman absolutely cannot make her more pregnant than she already is. Abstinence is also 100% effective at preventing pregnancy.
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Re: Is there a secular argument against abortion?

#72  Postby Boyle » Apr 09, 2014 5:27 am

Tacticus wrote:
NineOneFour wrote:
michael^3 wrote:There's one small aspect of abortion that is often forgotten: is the woman has the right to do away with a future child, for whatever reason, just because she doesn't want it, then surely the father should also have the right to do away with the future child if the mother decides to keep it. That is, no more paternity suits. Why should the father be forced to pay because of the decision of the mother to keep the baby?


Because he doesn't have to carry it for nine months, wreck his own body in the process, and endure the shaming from conservatives.

And this "small aspect" is not forgotten, we are constantly reminded of it by Men's Rights Activists.


You completely evaded the question asked, which asked why the father should be forced to pay child support if the mother decides to go through that nine months of body-wrecking shame. She need not do so, that's the point. But if she decides to voluntarily take on that burden, why should the father be forced to accommodate her decision against his financial interests?

Legally, the right to an abortion isn't based upon financial duress due to having a child; it is based upon the health of the mother (abortion is, statistically, safer than pregnancy up to a certain point) vs the potential life of a child (state's interest).

Once you can show that men might actually die due to the physical trauma of childbirth, you'll have a claim to "financial abortions". Til then, both parents have responsibility for the child after it is born, barring adoption or another anomalous circumstance.

If you just wanna argue it on ethical grounds, I'd say bodily autonomy is why. Men, typically, don't have to carry a fetus to term and give birth. They don't have to give resources, endure hormonal changes, or risk the danger inherent in childbirth. Just as one donates a kidney voluntarily, and has the option to rescind permission up to the point they are knocked out, one should have the ability to terminate a pregnancy.

Again, and unfortunately for both parties, once the child arrives the responsibility is theirs. Both are responsible for the well being of the child. I agree that the family courts need a bit of an overhaul, especially when it comes to determining who is able to pay what and in what ways both parties are able to obtain employment, but those are issues concerning the efficacy and fairness of the procedures in place to ensure the welfare of the child (state's interest), not issues concerning the ethics of abortion or parental responsibilities.
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Re: Is there a secular argument against abortion?

#73  Postby NineOneFour » Apr 09, 2014 5:56 am

Tacticus wrote:
NineOneFour wrote:
michael^3 wrote:There's one small aspect of abortion that is often forgotten: is the woman has the right to do away with a future child, for whatever reason, just because she doesn't want it, then surely the father should also have the right to do away with the future child if the mother decides to keep it. That is, no more paternity suits. Why should the father be forced to pay because of the decision of the mother to keep the baby?


Because he doesn't have to carry it for nine months, wreck his own body in the process, and endure the shaming from conservatives.

And this "small aspect" is not forgotten, we are constantly reminded of it by Men's Rights Activists.


You completely evaded the question asked, which asked why the father should be forced to pay child support if the mother decides to go through that nine months of body-wrecking shame. She need not do so, that's the point. But if she decides to voluntarily take on that burden, why should the father be forced to accommodate her decision against his financial interests?


Because the alternative is that taxpayers do so.
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Re: Is there a secular argument against abortion?

#74  Postby NineOneFour » Apr 09, 2014 5:58 am

Tacticus wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
Tacticus wrote:
In fact the best way for a man to have consequenceless recreational sex is to bang a pregnant chick

No it is not because the best way is anal which is statistically far more probable and is
guaranteed absolutely one hundred per safe. You are severely limiting your chances if
you rely on your method which is impractical on at least two and possibly three levels
What this has got to do with abortion I have no idea but I just had to answer it anyway


Actually, there is a small but real chance of insemination after anal sex with a fertile woman if the semen leaks out of the anus and runs down the perineum to the vagina. The same applies to "withdrawal" and ejaculation on the pubis. Sperm can be remarkably persistent and hardy in seeking the uterus. Any time sperm comes anywhere near the vagina, so long as it's still living there is a risk, however small, that it might find its way into the vagina and uterus and fertilize an egg.

Sex with a pregnant woman absolutely cannot make her more pregnant than she already is. Abstinence is also 100% effective at preventing pregnancy.


Abstinence?

Are you seriously saying we should teach abstinence in sex ed?
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Re: Is there a secular argument against abortion?

#75  Postby Scot Dutchy » Apr 09, 2014 6:00 am

Just what that has to do with abortion.

What happens after birth is another ball game. The rules are already in place when the pregnancy is discovered. It is the woman's body and nobody else's. It is up to her to decide. Well the prick that got her pregnant is just that a prick.

The man involved has no say nor should he have any over termination. If she wants to keep it well it is his problem as well. It takes two to tango. Just think before you fuck ok.
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Re: Is there a secular argument against abortion?

#76  Postby NineOneFour » Apr 09, 2014 6:07 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:Just what that has to do with abortion.

What happens after birth is another ball game. The rules are already in place when the pregnancy is discovered. It is the woman's body and nobody else's. It is up to her to decide. Well the prick that got her pregnant is just that a prick.

The man involved has no say nor should he have any over termination. If she wants to keep it well it is his problem as well. It takes two to tango. Just think before you fuck ok.


But remember, Scot, you have to "present a reasoned, rational logical progression of thought, and one devoid of inflammatory, overly-emotional rhetoric and hate speech" or apparently your post doesn't count.
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Re: Is there a secular argument against abortion?

#77  Postby Scot Dutchy » Apr 09, 2014 6:18 am

NineOneFour wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:Just what that has to do with abortion.

What happens after birth is another ball game. The rules are already in place when the pregnancy is discovered. It is the woman's body and nobody else's. It is up to her to decide. Well the prick that got her pregnant is just that a prick.

The man involved has no say nor should he have any over termination. If she wants to keep it well it is his problem as well. It takes two to tango. Just think before you fuck ok.


But remember, Scot, you have to "present a reasoned, rational logical progression of thought, and one devoid of inflammatory, overly-emotional rhetoric and hate speech" or apparently your post doesn't count.


Well it is reasoned that why the law is there for. There is progression if you are the prick that stuck his prick in the hole without thinking well you have to accept the consequences. B follows A that is progression. Where is the hate? Hopefully both enjoyed themselves. Still one the best time in my life even today.

What I am talking about is responsibility. Before intercourse both are responsible for taken precautions. If pregnancy occurs it is entirely her responsibility but she decides to have the child it is also his responsibility. That is just the way the cookie crumbles. The idea that a man has any say over a woman's body is a total absurdity. He should have thought about that one before he started.
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Re: Is there a secular argument against abortion?

#78  Postby Agrippina » Apr 09, 2014 6:19 am

scott1328 wrote:
mrjonno wrote:
scott1328 wrote:I agree that a father should be able to opt out of fatherhood, in exactly the same way a woman can opt out of motherhood.


If the father walking away caused the woman to spontaneously abort and not dump the tax payer (rarely the woman as she won't be able to work) with paying the costs of the baby I might agree.

However as biology doesn't tend to work that way we need to deal with reality here


I am talking about post-delivery. And in the US at least, there is a disparity against the father, if the mother decides to keep the baby, he is saddled with child support. If a woman decides to give up the baby to the state, she is not saddled with child support. (although she could be if the father decides to keep the baby.)

I believe there should be a fixed period of time post-partum where either parent may opt out of parenthood with no strings attach. The child would go to the willing parent, or if none are willing, to the state. (for the father, this fixed period of time would extend from the moment his paternity is acknowledged or established).

And yes, this would be expensive to the state. All the more reason to offer free and easy birth control/abortions to avoid the problem.

Aggripina wrote:I'm not getting into this fight again. Been there. I'm just going to say that if men don't want to be responsible for having sex when they don't want anymore kids, they should have a vasectomy, then they don't have to worry about the babies they don't want to support. And that's all I'm going to say about this derail.

And the woman should have had her tubes tied. Is that really where you want to go?


What sort of man wants to force his child to live with the idea that his father cared so little for him, that he refused to support him and be responsible for him. To me that says more about the integrity and honour of the man (or non-existence of the two) than it does about his "right to refuse parenthood." An honourable man steps up to the plate.
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Re: Is there a secular argument against abortion?

#79  Postby Agrippina » Apr 09, 2014 6:22 am

michael^3 wrote:
Animavore wrote:
Agrippina wrote:

I'm not getting into this fight again. Been there. I'm just going to say that if men don't want to be responsible for having sex when they don't want anymore kids, they should have a vasectomy, then they don't have to worry about the babies they don't want to support. And that's all I'm going to say about this derail.


This isn't the point he's making. If a woman accidently gets pregnant she can have an abortion. The man has no similar get out clause. What if the man doesn't want the baby and offers the woman money for an abortion and she refuses saying she will have it? Shouldn't he then have an option to say that he offered and she didn't take it and he no longer has responsibiliy?


Exactly. A woman may become pregnant because of an innocent night of fun and then decide to do away with the consequences just because it does not fit with her holiday plans. A man may become father because of an innocent night of fun and then be forced to pay up for 21 years, meaning that for 21 years he will have to get up in the morning and go to work for a baby he never wanted. How's that for "bodily autonomy"?


Whatever her reasons, they are her reasons, and nothing to do with anyone else.

For a man, if you don't want the child, then don't have the sex. The father's refusal to have anything to do with the child is an indictment on his integrity. Sheesh there's a whole thread about this. Take this derail there.
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Re: Is there a secular argument against abortion?

#80  Postby Agrippina » Apr 09, 2014 6:37 am

scott1328 wrote:
mrjonno wrote:

Well either the father pays or somebody else pays. I don't see why one should be worse than the other.


One is someone else the other is me (and taxpayers in general). Me paying is always worse


So both you and Aggripina are in favor of punishing men for having sex.

Good to know.


It's not punishment. Why are they having sex with women they don't want to have in their lives forever? I find it amusing that the more religious the man, the less responsibility he wants for his indiscretions. I thought religion was all about honour. Seems I'm wrong. :roll:
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