Okay, seriously!? Where does the mind come up with dreams?

Just woken up from a good 5 minute conversation with Patrick Stewart and Ian McKellen...

Anything that doesn't fit anywhere else.

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Re: Okay, seriously!? Where does the mind come up with dreams?

#201  Postby Coastal » Jun 23, 2021 6:31 am

It is probably not a question of either/or; it is probably a spectrum as with most metrics of the inner human world. I will check the book out, thanks.

My interest in this got piqued a year and a half ago as reported here:

https://www.iflscience.com/brain/people-are-weirded-out-to-discover-that-some-people-dont-have-an-internal-monologue/

Most of it is difficult to gauge as we agree, but it does not appear to be an outlier type of situation for people to have no kind of inner voice.

I also value my different kinds of inner voices as you describe, because I think I share your love for language to a degree, but I have found the *option* of freeing myself from my over-active and at times, damaging thoughts, to be truly liberating in many ways. No woo involved here, just entering a different mental state where you can experience not being identified with every thought that pops into your head and wherever it decides to take you. For someone who has experienced psychosis, this is very liberating. For me, it is just a tool that I have now, I have no regular meditation sessions - I know I should, but it feels a bit like "having" to pray the whole time, from when I was religious :grin:

Anyway, to get back to the original point that I was responding to, what did you mean with this?
silent, dialogic thought and dreaming could be similarly functional in keeping radical re-wiring at bay.


What rewiring would take place without "silent, dialogic thought"? It seems clear to me from the visual dream hypotheses that it is sight in that case, but what is it similarly for thinking in "silent, dialogic thought" that is being protected from rewiring?
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Re: Okay, seriously!? Where does the mind come up with dreams?

#202  Postby don't get me started » Jun 25, 2021 1:11 am

Thanks for the link Coastal, I've copied the url into a word document that I have for collecting links. I'll definitely be referring to it in future.

I agree, there is probably a spectrum in the ways that people experience conscious thought. On reflection, I think the word 'outliers' was poorly chosen on my part. The ways in which people are neuro-diverse is only starting to be understood. It may be the case that we are all outliers and there are no 'inliers'.

So, to your question.
I think what I was trying to tease out of the original article was that there is a 'use it or lose it' aspect to our mind's processes.
Other sensory modes may intrude on the visual part of the brain and 'rewiring' may take place. I think that you are right to question whether the language faculty gets rewired...indeed, what would it be re-wired with?
But I think that atrophy of the language faculty can occur with lack of use. This happens most starkly with second or foreign languages. My own Japanese abilities ebb an flow over time, depending on use.

For example, at election times, I may bone up on vocabulary connected to politics and democracy etc. But then, I might not have any occasion to talk about these issues for another few years and...unsurprisingly, the words have faded away and need to be reacquired. Similarly, my students who return from overseas study report a sensation of loss after a few weeks back in a wholly Japanese environment.

The more challenging thing is the loss or atrophying of one's native language (L1 as it is referred to in the field).
I occasionally read of people who completely lose the ability to use the language they grew up speaking...as incredible as it may sound to some. The process is undoubtedly slower and more easily reversed than the case of L2, but I think that using the language and also thinking in the language help prevent loss over time.

One of the reasons I do the book challenge on this forum is to keep my L1 language up and running at a more sophisticated level than just daily, quotidian interactions. I am in an L1 poor environment and can go for long periods without speaking to a native English speaker. I gotta work at it to keep on top of my L1 proficiency.

There is another aspect to this that I think is specifically connected to the dialogic nature of inner thought. Keeping your inner dialogue civil and questioning, taking turns and imagining what 'the other' would say, helps you be a better interactant in the outside world. I sometimes meet teachers who have been in the job for a long time and treat every interaction as a lesson...they talk over people, have opinions on every field of human endeavour, take long turns and treat their interlocutors as wholly epistemically inferior and as a captive and unresisting audience. They seem to have lost the knack of social interaction and seem a bit 'off'. I can't imagine what their inner dialogue is like.

So, 'use it or lose it' seems, in my opinion, to be the case not only with the nuts and bolts of language (vocabulary and grammar) but also with the interactional aspect of language in use. Winning every argument in your head does not make you a smart person and losing an argument in your head and coming to the conclusion that you are going to have to rethink this is a healthy thing.
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Re: Okay, seriously!? Where does the mind come up with dreams?

#203  Postby BlackBart » Jun 25, 2021 11:05 am

Ok, so last night I dreamt I was on Dragon's Den, but didn't have anything to pitch, so I presented them with my latest invention...the, um, empty crisp packet. :dunno: I'm pretty sure they all out at that point, but the dream went very Daliesque at that point.
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Re: Okay, seriously!? Where does the mind come up with dreams?

#204  Postby Coastal » Jun 25, 2021 2:13 pm

don't get me started wrote:Thanks for the link Coastal, I've copied the url into a word document that I have for collecting links. I'll definitely be referring to it in future.

I agree, there is probably a spectrum in the ways that people experience conscious thought. On reflection, I think the word 'outliers' was poorly chosen on my part. The ways in which people are neuro-diverse is only starting to be understood. It may be the case that we are all outliers and there are no 'inliers'.

So, to your question.
I think what I was trying to tease out of the original article was that there is a 'use it or lose it' aspect to our mind's processes.
Other sensory modes may intrude on the visual part of the brain and 'rewiring' may take place. I think that you are right to question whether the language faculty gets rewired...indeed, what would it be re-wired with?
But I think that atrophy of the language faculty can occur with lack of use. This happens most starkly with second or foreign languages. My own Japanese abilities ebb an flow over time, depending on use.

For example, at election times, I may bone up on vocabulary connected to politics and democracy etc. But then, I might not have any occasion to talk about these issues for another few years and...unsurprisingly, the words have faded away and need to be reacquired. Similarly, my students who return from overseas study report a sensation of loss after a few weeks back in a wholly Japanese environment.

The more challenging thing is the loss or atrophying of one's native language (L1 as it is referred to in the field).
I occasionally read of people who completely lose the ability to use the language they grew up speaking...as incredible as it may sound to some. The process is undoubtedly slower and more easily reversed than the case of L2, but I think that using the language and also thinking in the language help prevent loss over time.

One of the reasons I do the book challenge on this forum is to keep my L1 language up and running at a more sophisticated level than just daily, quotidian interactions. I am in an L1 poor environment and can go for long periods without speaking to a native English speaker. I gotta work at it to keep on top of my L1 proficiency.

There is another aspect to this that I think is specifically connected to the dialogic nature of inner thought. Keeping your inner dialogue civil and questioning, taking turns and imagining what 'the other' would say, helps you be a better interactant in the outside world. I sometimes meet teachers who have been in the job for a long time and treat every interaction as a lesson...they talk over people, have opinions on every field of human endeavour, take long turns and treat their interlocutors as wholly epistemically inferior and as a captive and unresisting audience. They seem to have lost the knack of social interaction and seem a bit 'off'. I can't imagine what their inner dialogue is like.

So, 'use it or lose it' seems, in my opinion, to be the case not only with the nuts and bolts of language (vocabulary and grammar) but also with the interactional aspect of language in use. Winning every argument in your head does not make you a smart person and losing an argument in your head and coming to the conclusion that you are going to have to rethink this is a healthy thing.


Thank you for the thoughtful response. This is the reason I visit the forum; so that I'm not having these fascinating conversations only with myself all the time :lol:

You open a whole new can of worms, as it were, by talking about being multilingual. In my country (South Africa), the majority of people speak not one or two, but several languages. I myself am bilingual, and dabble a little bit in the Nguni languages of SA, so maybe I speak 2.5 languages :grin:

What's interesting is that I switch between my 2 main languages (Afrikaans and English) in my internal monologue. Broadly, I use English for logical, rational type of thought and Afrikaans for the more emotional stuff.

You cut to the core of what I was getting at here: "indeed, what would it be re-wired with?"

Brain plasticity certainly is something we're only now starting to scratch the surface of in our understanding, but I think the concept of the strengthening of the synapses of your neurons through repetition is a well known phenomenon. I think what you're describing about losing language is more attributable to this than the drastic and rapid rewiring postulated in the dream/vision hypothesis.
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Re: Okay, seriously!? Where does the mind come up with dreams?

#205  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 25, 2021 2:22 pm

One of the reasons I do the book challenge on this forum is to keep my L1 language up and running at a more sophisticated level than just daily, quotidian interactions. I am in an L1 poor environment and can go for long periods without speaking to a native English speaker.


It's one of the reasons I joined an internet forum in the first place.

I occasionally read of people who completely lose the ability to use the language they grew up speaking...as incredible as it may sound to some.


And for some of us, it happens every morning until sufficient caffeine has been administered.
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Re: Okay, seriously!? Where does the mind come up with dreams?

#206  Postby felltoearth » Jun 28, 2021 1:40 pm

BlackBart wrote:Sometimes a Beaver is just a Beaver.

Tell that to a Canadian


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Re: Okay, seriously!? Where does the mind come up with dreams?

#207  Postby BlackBart » Jun 28, 2021 1:53 pm

felltoearth wrote:
BlackBart wrote:Sometimes a Beaver is just a Beaver.

Tell that to a Canadian


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Re: Okay, seriously!? Where does the mind come up with dreams?

#208  Postby The_Piper » Jun 28, 2021 2:46 pm

Those Canadians are so special with their very own goose, lynx, and beaver. They sent them to invade their neighbors to the south. (As opposed to their neighbors to the north? :scratch: :lol: )
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Re: Okay, seriously!? Where does the mind come up with dreams?

#209  Postby The_Metatron » Jun 28, 2021 3:20 pm

They walk among us. Undetected, eh?
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Re: Okay, seriously!? Where does the mind come up with dreams?

#210  Postby The_Piper » Jun 28, 2021 5:04 pm

:lol: :lol:
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Re: Okay, seriously!? Where does the mind come up with dreams?

#211  Postby BlackBart » Jun 28, 2021 6:07 pm

The_Metatron wrote:They walk among us. Undetected, eh?

You can certainly detect where Canadian Geese have walked amongst us. The bastards shit everywhere. :nono:
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Re: Okay, seriously!? Where does the mind come up with dreams?

#212  Postby The_Piper » Jun 29, 2021 2:44 am

We had them congregate by the hundreds in the school sports fields where I grew up, pooping like mad. Kids would be slipping and sliding, falling in it, the balls rolling in it with green stains, and no single child or adult ever mentioned it or even acknowledged it's existence, quite literally right under our feet. One of those surreal mysteries of junior high that I've never been able to solve. :teef:
They may as well be named Boston geese.
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Re: Okay, seriously!? Where does the mind come up with dreams?

#213  Postby cowolter » Sep 01, 2021 2:29 pm

Most research points to combinations of person, place and context cues along with visual associations of their emotional salience taken from the immediate day residue) before and from units of 7 days prior.
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Re: Okay, seriously!? Where does the mind come up with dreams?

#214  Postby Jan135 » Apr 19, 2022 1:16 pm

I am an HGV driver and my dreams most of the times are about driving. There are many near-crash situations that happen to me and it make me feel uneasy. That is the "food" for my dreams.
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Re: Okay, seriously!? Where does the mind come up with dreams?

#215  Postby Jan135 » Apr 26, 2022 2:25 pm

Jan135 wrote:I am an HGV driver and my dreams most of the times are about driving. There are many near-crash situations that happen to me and it make me feel uneasy. That is the "food" for my dreams.

Last night when I was home, my dog woke me up when I was dreaming about my childhood. I spent the whole morning trying to remember more of the things that happened to me years ago. Those were good times.
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Re: Okay, seriously!? Where does the mind come up with dreams?

#216  Postby The_Piper » Jan 30, 2023 5:38 am

About to go to sleep, but I just remembered I had a nightmare last night. Trump lost the 2024 election but on election night the redneck apocalypse. Trump "fans" were all out in public armed, looking to shoot non-Trump fans. My father was one of the Trump fans. He didn't want to kill me, but that was another nightmarish part of the nightmare. I remember hiding in a house that had a bunch of floors and I retreated as high as I could go, planning to pretend to be a Trump fan if I got found by them. Good thing I don't believe in premonitions. :lol: :shock:
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Re: Okay, seriously!? Where does the mind come up with dreams?

#217  Postby THWOTH » Jan 30, 2023 10:04 am

Take some deep breaths. Relax those shoulders. It's going to be OK, I promise you.
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Re: Okay, seriously!? Where does the mind come up with dreams?

#218  Postby The_Piper » Jan 30, 2023 3:16 pm

Ok, I'll listen to this lullaby before bed tonight.
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