On social justice and social justice warriors

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Re: On social justice and social justice warriors

#241  Postby arugula2 » Jul 23, 2020 4:16 am

Creationist Cat weighs in on cartoons vs the gender-threatened.

The gay.net interview with Erika Scheimer (voice of the original She-Ra), mentioned early in the video, is archived here.

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Re: On social justice and social justice warriors

#242  Postby arugula2 » Jul 24, 2020 2:19 am

I picked up Leepson’s biography, cited further down in Clague’s opinion piece (the other reference I was waiting for is a digital reprint of an 1812 book about the Lancaster School system - but the bio is sufficient, as it references it). This example, and a number of others in his article, confirm my suspicion that Clague is consciously doing racist apology, by how he phrases things, and by what he includes and what he omits. Based on my browsing of his other writings about Key, I know he’s not doing this accidentally or for lack of sources. It’s pretty clear his impetus is to protect his livelihood, and also to defend a cultural legacy he has loved and admired since boyhood (by his own description). What irks me is how far he allows himself to editorialize the past - when he could more reasonably opt to defend the rituals he needs to defend, while respecting history. He has set out not to do this, but rather to bend history according to his needs. I’ll try to demonstrate somewhere below.

Now I’m also inclined to wait for another scan - of Key’s letters - if only to satisfy my curiosity about another claim Clague makes elsewhere. But it might do as a follow-up.
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Re: On social justice and social justice warriors

#243  Postby SkyMutt » Jul 26, 2020 11:20 pm

Yes, I'm interested in the Leepson biography as well. Good to know you're reading it; perhaps at some point we can compare notes.

I don't find it difficult to acknowledge the fact that the US was racist to its core from its founding. It could hardly be otherwise given the invasion, conquering, subjugating/wiping out the locals, importing slaves from Africa, all in the name of Gott mit Uns stuff that formed its precedent. That racism continued unabated in Key's day, and has done anything but recede completely from the current scene in the US.

From our relatively advantaged position in history we look back and see a deeply racist culture in the young USA. One can legitimately claim that all products of that culture are inherently racist. If it proves satisfying to them, I cannot fault the person who takes that view.

To me it isn't satisfying. I believe it's too simplistic and fails to take into account the differences between how people living in that racist culture thought about race and dealt with the issue in their daily lives. Were they all racists? In modern eyes, I think it's probable that they were. Is everything they did and wrote damned to ignominy thereby? Of that I'm not so sure. One thing I am sure of is that there was a great deal of variation in how individuals living in that culture dealt with the issue of race. Doctrinaire dismissal of the people of that era and their writings as "racist" seems an inadequate approach to me.
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Re: On social justice and social justice warriors

#244  Postby arugula2 » Jul 26, 2020 11:50 pm

SkyMutt wrote:From our relatively advantaged position in history we look back and see a deeply racist culture in the young USA. One can legitimately claim that all products of that culture are inherently racist. If it proves satisfying to them, I cannot fault the person who takes that view.

This is the kind of fallacious reasoning that leads you to incorrect perceptions of history. This is a straw man. You are not arguing honestly (whether you realize it or not).

There were in fact - since the republic's inception - people at all tiers of society who were vehemently opposed to slavery, on humanistic grounds. There were, ever since then, and into Key's lifetime, increasing numbers of people who ardently promoted abolition - white people. Key himself was much preoccupied with them. That is history. Your summary is what's simplistic.

Who but shall learn that freedom is the prize
Man still is bound to rescue or maintain;
That nature's God commands the slave to rise,
And on the oppressor's head to break the chain.
Roll, years of promise, rapidly roll round,
Till not a slave shall on this earth be found.

- John Quincy Adams, diary entry, October 30, 1826.

It's not a modern bias. And you should not have to be clued in to this, given your entrenched position. Unless, again, you are only arguing dishonestly.
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Re: On social justice and social justice warriors

#245  Postby arugula2 » Jul 27, 2020 12:20 am

To be clear, your representation of the apologist side does a disservice to them. The straw-man arguments from you in this thread continue to pile up. Your willingness to equivocate without real context (but by regurgitating snopes & The National Review journalists and by “trusting” the intentions of a musicologist) has been unimpressive. You seem to want to preemptively scrub nuance and then call the resulting blur nuanced. Hopefully, reasonable minds won’t fall for that kind of fake both-sidesism, and will be alert to what it says about your method.

Yes, there’s that icky word again: method.
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Re: On social justice and social justice warriors

#246  Postby arugula2 » Aug 10, 2020 6:57 pm

I think this is his best wardrobe work yet - and voice acting. (1:02-3:03)



3/4 of the way done with Key. Will post anon.
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Re: On social justice and social justice warriors

#247  Postby arugula2 » Aug 18, 2020 8:46 pm

The channel is easy to recommend. (My intro was his analysis of "Deutschland" by Rammstein.)

A German revisionism-revision:

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Re: On social justice and social justice warriors

#248  Postby Hermit » Aug 19, 2020 11:40 pm

arugula2 wrote:The channel is easy to recommend. (My intro was his analysis of "Deutschland" by Rammstein.)

A German revisionism-revision:


I don't know what Dan is trying to say here, and I am not sure he does either. He certainly does not answer the question, "Was every German soldier bad?" clearly. 17 million of them? If they were, Dan does not explain how so. In a way, the author kind of concedes that not every German soldier was bad beginning at the 27:37 mark: "Of course there are many accounts of officers or soldiers being appalled by the exterminatory nature of the campaign and it even led some on the path of resistance or save as many as many innocent people as they could. This, however, doesn't vindicate the Wehrmacht..." Nice non sequitur. Wasn't the question about the culpability of every German soldier in the Wehrmacht? He seems to be conflating the fact that the Wehrmacht was an integral part (duh!) of Hitler's genocidal project with the guilt of every individual soldier in it. He may as well pin that verdict on every adult and near adult German citizen of the thousand twelve year empire. They were all complicit in this crime against humanity, no matter whether they actually took part in the massacres or harvested the potatoes that fed the ones who did.

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Re: On social justice and social justice warriors

#249  Postby arugula2 » Aug 19, 2020 11:45 pm

Hermit wrote:He certainly does not answer the question, "Was every German soldier bad?" clearly.

Not a reasonable question to be answering precisely. So, no, he's not answering that question. Language is a trip, ain't it.
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Re: On social justice and social justice warriors

#250  Postby Hermit » Aug 20, 2020 12:05 am

arugula2 wrote:
Hermit wrote:He certainly does not answer the question, "Was every German soldier bad?" clearly.

Not a reasonable question to be answering precisely. So, no, he's not answering that question. Language is a trip, ain't it.

I do see where he is coming from. This video is a pushback against the tens of thousands of Germans who, starting in May 1945, played the "when I poured that canister of Zyklon B into the gas chamber I was only following orders" or the "we had no idea what was happening in our names behind our backs and" card.

That said, Dan's attempt to clarify the issue is piss-poor. It is so superficial and lacks so many important considerations, I'd mark it 3/10.
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Re: On social justice and social justice warriors

#251  Postby arugula2 » Aug 20, 2020 12:28 am

Hermit wrote:I do see where he is coming from. This video is a pushback against the tens of thousands of Germans who, starting in May 1945, played the "when I poured that canister of Zyklon B into the gas chamber I was only following orders" or the "we had no idea what was happening in our names behind our backs and" card.

An interesting pair of cohorts, on your part. There's a larger, and more useful, range of actions and attitudes than these two ("I poured the gas" and "I had no idea what was being done"). His piece is addressed at the actual range, not at your comically inadequate revision of it.
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Re: On social justice and social justice warriors

#252  Postby Hermit » Aug 20, 2020 1:00 am

arugula2 wrote:
Hermit wrote:I do see where he is coming from. This video is a pushback against the tens of thousands of Germans who, starting in May 1945, played the "when I poured that canister of Zyklon B into the gas chamber I was only following orders" or the "we had no idea what was happening in our names behind our backs and" card.

An interesting pair of cohorts, on your part. There's a larger, and more useful, range of actions and attitudes than these two ("I poured the gas" and "I had no idea what was being done"). His piece is addressed at the actual range, not at your comically inadequate revision of it.

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Re: On social justice and social justice warriors

#253  Postby Animavore » Aug 20, 2020 4:53 pm

arugula2 wrote:I think this is his best wardrobe work yet - and voice acting. (1:02-3:03)



3/4 of the way done with Key. Will post anon.


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Re: On social justice and social justice warriors

#254  Postby Ironclad » Dec 22, 2020 9:26 pm

Flash Gordon gets warning for 'potentially offensive' Ming the Merciless https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-55409194

They’re coming for Spock next.
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Re: On social justice and social justice warriors

#255  Postby Seabass » Dec 22, 2020 9:46 pm

That's ridiculous. Why can't people just be reasonable about this sort of thing... :doh:
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Re: On social justice and social justice warriors

#256  Postby The_Piper » Dec 22, 2020 9:57 pm

A warning for Ming, yet the only scene I remember of that was him being gruesomely impaled by something. A spaceship iirc? Shouldn't that be a warning instead? I was a little kid, that was pretty jarring. :shock: :lol: :doh:
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Re: On social justice and social justice warriors

#257  Postby Hermit » Dec 22, 2020 10:55 pm

From that article:
"The character of Ming of course comes from the Flash Gordon comic strips from the 1930s and the serials, and let's just say attitudes towards the acceptability of discriminatory racial stereotypes have moved on considerably since then, and rightly so of course."

Earlier this year, Gone With The Wind had a warning added on US streaming service HBO Max saying the 1939 film "denies the horrors of slavery".

And the BBFC upgraded 1936 musical Show Boat from a U to a PG for "stereotypes, language and behaviour that are not appropriate at U under our current guidelines".

Speaking on a BBFC podcast, Mr Tindall said: "This is something that we have to bear in mind often when we see older films coming in for reclassification - films that might contain discriminatory depictions or stereotypes that are not acceptable to modern audiences, including films where discrimination wasn't the work's intent, just a reflection of the period in which it was made.

What is so objectionable about this?
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Re: On social justice and social justice warriors

#258  Postby Ironclad » Dec 23, 2020 9:55 am

Someone, somewhere, may be offended. Possibly.
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Re: On social justice and social justice warriors

#259  Postby Hermit » Dec 23, 2020 10:03 am

Ironclad wrote:Someone, somewhere, may be offended. Possibly.

Offended by what? The reaction to changes of attitudes towards the acceptability of discriminatory racial stereotypes?
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Re: On social justice and social justice warriors

#260  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Dec 23, 2020 10:05 am

Hermit wrote:
Ironclad wrote:Someone, somewhere, may be offended. Possibly.

Offended by what? The reaction to changes of attitudes towards the acceptability of discriminatory racial stereotypes?

:this:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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