On social justice and social justice warriors

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Re: On social justice and social justice warriors

#321  Postby arugula2 » Dec 28, 2020 4:32 am

Ironclad wrote:And a very merry Christmas to you and your family too.

Christmas is not for another 11 days or so. Just saying. You mean happy belated Saturnalia, I think.

...There are chances now for all to grasp, and the future needs to be written, so the youngsters could get out there and do it.

:lol:

Sorz, but... there've always been "chances now for all to grasp". A black American in ante-bellum Kentucky had "chances" to "grasp" pretty much whatever was available to a white person, save the vote & public office. He could buy land, could buy a house, could hire laborers, etc... and was far more likely to be overcharged, have his property seized, be jailed without reprieve or due process, and be beaten, enslaved, and lynched. Oh wait - my bad... that wasn't 19th century Kentucky... that's 21st century Anywhere, USA.

I think you meant to say something like "equal chances for all..." but couldn't find the words or the conviction. Normally that leads to a personal revelation.

Rather than changing popular culture by demand.

Whatever change happens, it happens the same way across the centuries. There's no such thing as purely "organic" cultural change. It's mostly people agitating, and then going with the flow. There're always others pushing against the flow (I'm usually one of them), but sometimes the reasons given don't amount to much & are opaque.
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Re: On social justice and social justice warriors

#322  Postby Spearthrower » Dec 28, 2020 3:22 pm

arugula2 wrote:There's no such thing as purely "organic" cultural change. It's mostly people agitating, and then going with the flow. There're always others pushing against the flow (I'm usually one of them), but sometimes the reasons given don't amount to much & are opaque.



While not so much the rest of your post, the above I do agree with very much, and think is true across all cultures and times. Within a group of people, there's a balance between progressive ideas to reform some aspect of society and the reactionary conservatism of tradition and heritage. Across time and generations, the balance between these forces shifts back and forth seeing the under-dog of the time agitating against the old/new. Typically both parties' points have some value and no society seems to do so well when either force becomes too dominant. Too much stasis through focus on the maintenance of traditional ideas and the civilization becomes unwieldy and less able to respond to new circumstances, whereas rewriting too much of the valued traditions leads to dissidence, discomfort and the arisal of wholly new societal fracture lines.

I think you can find examples of this in every documented civilization of the past right up to today. What is typically disappointing about us ground apes is that even when a progressive faction with 'good' ideas manages to gain the upper hand and overthrow a past system of injustice, they immediately just become the reactionaries themselves. The hippies became the bureaucrats.
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Re: On social justice and social justice warriors

#323  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Dec 28, 2020 4:41 pm

Ironclad wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Ironclad wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:

Fair enough and a merry Christmas to you.




It seems a significant mistake to me to caricature all forms of aspirational equality by lumping it in with the extreme kooky ideas bandied about on the fringe. I don't know and can't see why a warning on media should be either problematic or cause for mockery. The media's still there to be consumed, but now it has an advisory similar to an age advisory and for similar reasons. I personally think parents should be proactive in monitoring what their kids watch, and these advisories can help with that. That's not to say that parents should censor these older films and programs, but that they might want to be prepared to have some kind of discussion, or explain the context for their kids.

One example show that springs to mind for me is Rising Damp, which I think we're both old enough to remember! ;)

Rising Damp is interesting on many levels. It displays a period of time in recent British history that a significant percentage of tv viewers are too young to remember. In the mid 70's when the show was made, the first UK born generation of black british were growing up, going through the school systems, and entering the work-force. The violent clashes of the past had largely been replaced by a reasonable level of acceptance and a general social agreement that racism was the undesirable element, rather than the other races. The comedic crux of the show sets up the white protagonist as a foil to that old school racism with his views being shown as preposterous and the black antagonist as being charming, honest and intelligent. It's the political correctness of the 1970's and provides a really interesting window into social attitudes of that time in a comedy format. It's definitely not intended to offend black British people.

However, I think a younger black British person watching it today might still rightly be shocked at the cruder expressions of racism, even though portrayed ironically, that were still socially normal at that time (that's particularly the case when it comes to adults choosing what's suitable for their kids). The fact is that were that show made today, it wouldn't get funded or made. That's not to say that shows can't feature comedic racial based interactions between characters, but that they're comedic racial based interactions which people today find funny rather than crude and offensive.

For me, when it comes to talking about warnings on shows, there's a really simple aspect to this I think people don't acknowledge sufficiently. Firstly, it's entertainment, and shows are meant to entertain not fuck people off. Secondly, it's a business, and just as with any business, a show or network becomes successful by netting as many customers as possible, and so it needs to appeal to as many different potential viewers as possible. That wasn't the case with yesteryear when audiences were national and in many respects homogeneous, but just doesn't work from a business perspective today.

Finally, there's our aging. Just like your grandpa might have scorned the music of your day as a horrible din, so I think it's easy for old codgers like you :grin: to not grasp that society has changed already, and will continue to change, and choosing to dig in your heels isn't going to stop it; it's just going to make you a fossil. Perhaps you're right that a decade ago this forum would have poked fun at this (I don't actually believe you're right, unless you're referring to the Politics subforum which has, I am afraid to say, always been something more like a zoo from my perspective) but perhaps the world simply has changed in that time. Actually, I honestly think many people here would always have been able to recognize racism and reject it on rational grounds while also being able to spot the silly fringe nonsense and make due mock of it; I found Atheism+ to be a great big pile of wibbly bollocks for example, but I am pretty damn sure you wouldn't be able to find any post I've ever made on this forum which dismissed or made light of racism. For me, the 'edge' this place possessed was the ability to dissect bad ideas rationally - it was of course not ubiquitous among the membership which was, I suppose, at least part of the fun therein. But from that perspective, I can't say as I've seen any rational reason offered as to why such an advisory should not readily be supported. No butthurt fanned faces required.

And a very merry Christmas to you and your family too.
The levelled playing field is something to aspire to, I cannot argue there at all. It is the retrospective ‘horror’ of what once was, the Cancel Culture and the demands that annoy me. There are chances now for all to grasp, and the future needs to be written, so the youngsters could get out there and do it. Rather than changing popular culture by demand.
Rising Damp is an excellent example, we’ve had this chat recently.

How did you think things like universal voting, women's right to vote, the right to abortion and many other achievements were started?

By lobbying, placard waving and self sacrifice? As opposed to demanding special treatment and breaking shit, say.

Lobbying is pressuring governments other organisations to give in to your demands. I.e. you're demanding things.
Placard waving is displaying your demands prominently in public and demanding they get implemented.

More than that though, demanding social justice is the exact opposite of demanding special treatment. It's about treating people fairly and equitable. To not just care for the demands and issues of the wealthy and powerful, but also for the poor and people on the fringes of society.

I’ve done the former, I imagine you have too

Yes, I have and continue to do. Unlike you however I don't operate under the misunderstanding that social justice is about demanding special treatment or that changes to social convention come about without demanding said changes.
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Re: On social justice and social justice warriors

#324  Postby arugula2 » Dec 28, 2020 5:17 pm

Spearthrower wrote:While not so much the rest of your post, the above I do agree with very much, and think is true across all cultures and times.

:P Funny, of my 3 points, that's the one I'd find the most challenging, myself. (Imo, disparities in opportunity & the original date of christmas are much easier to prove.) Most cultural change, strictly speaking, probably is organic... just not the sort of change we would pay attention to. It's kind of like punctuated equilibria & speciation: the speciation is less interesting than the underlying genetic drift, imo, but it's all anyone cares about. (Even so, I think 'culture' is more fluid, on the whole, than gene pools. But idk. Maybe not.)

Anyway, as far as Ironclad is concerned, it's the abrupt noticeable shifts that matter, because... because... idk. Because they feel abrupt? It seems to boil down to individual comfort & tolerance, which is kind of boring.
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Re: On social justice and social justice warriors

#325  Postby Hermit » Dec 28, 2020 5:47 pm

Ironclad wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
How did you think things like universal voting, women's right to vote, the right to abortion and many other achievements were started?

By lobbying, placard waving and self sacrifice? As opposed to demanding special treatment and breaking shit, say.

Firstly, who the fuck is asking for special treatment?

Secondly, what do you do when lobbying, placard waving and self sacrifice doesn't work?

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Re: On social justice and social justice warriors

#326  Postby Ironclad » Dec 28, 2020 5:56 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Ironclad wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Ironclad wrote:
And a very merry Christmas to you and your family too.
The levelled playing field is something to aspire to, I cannot argue there at all. It is the retrospective ‘horror’ of what once was, the Cancel Culture and the demands that annoy me. There are chances now for all to grasp, and the future needs to be written, so the youngsters could get out there and do it. Rather than changing popular culture by demand.
Rising Damp is an excellent example, we’ve had this chat recently.

How did you think things like universal voting, women's right to vote, the right to abortion and many other achievements were started?

By lobbying, placard waving and self sacrifice? As opposed to demanding special treatment and breaking shit, say.

Lobbying is pressuring governments other organisations to give in to your demands. I.e. you're demanding things.
Placard waving is displaying your demands prominently in public and demanding they get implemented.

More than that though, demanding social justice is the exact opposite of demanding special treatment. It's about treating people fairly and equitable. To not just care for the demands and issues of the wealthy and powerful, but also for the poor and people on the fringes of society.

I’ve done the former, I imagine you have too

Yes, I have and continue to do. Unlike you however I don't operate under the misunderstanding that social justice is about demanding special treatment or that changes to social convention come about without demanding said changes.

Perhaps. Also, there is nothing wrong with social justice to my mind. It is why we are here today, mostly in unity.
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Re: On social justice and social justice warriors

#327  Postby romansh » Dec 28, 2020 7:10 pm

Hermit wrote:Boston Tea Party


I must admit I don't quite see the equivalency of the Boston Tea Party with looting and rioting.

Are you recommending this for say Aryan Nation groups as method for advocacy and change?
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Re: On social justice and social justice warriors

#328  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Dec 28, 2020 7:11 pm

Ironclad wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Ironclad wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
How did you think things like universal voting, women's right to vote, the right to abortion and many other achievements were started?

By lobbying, placard waving and self sacrifice? As opposed to demanding special treatment and breaking shit, say.

Lobbying is pressuring governments other organisations to give in to your demands. I.e. you're demanding things.
Placard waving is displaying your demands prominently in public and demanding they get implemented.

More than that though, demanding social justice is the exact opposite of demanding special treatment. It's about treating people fairly and equitable. To not just care for the demands and issues of the wealthy and powerful, but also for the poor and people on the fringes of society.

I’ve done the former, I imagine you have too

Yes, I have and continue to do. Unlike you however I don't operate under the misunderstanding that social justice is about demanding special treatment or that changes to social convention come about without demanding said changes.

Perhaps. Also, there is nothing wrong with social justice to my mind. It is why we are here today, mostly in unity.

There's no perhaps about it. Your argument sounds eerily like homophobes asserting LGBT people want special rights.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: On social justice and social justice warriors

#329  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Dec 28, 2020 7:13 pm

romansh wrote:
Hermit wrote:Boston Tea Party


I must admit I don't quite see the equivalency of the Boston Tea Party with looting and rioting.

The Boston Tea Party is an example of looting and rioting.

Are you recommending this for say Aryan Nation groups as method for advocacy and change?

If you'd read his post, you'd see he was drawing an analogy with BLM protests, not Aryan Nation.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: On social justice and social justice warriors

#330  Postby Animavore » Dec 28, 2020 8:16 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
Animavore wrote:I'm not seeing the fuss myself. Movies have always come with a content warning written beside the age classification in the small print, you even see it at the start of every Netflix show.


No, movies have not "always come with warnings and classifications". That's why I think disputes like this may even break along some kind of generational lines. Anyone who's grown up with the progress from zero awareness to zero tolerance will know what I mean. Some other folks have ridden along, watching the grip of their white supremacy slipping, and have been radicalized in the other direction, but I suspect they are unmoved by trigger warnings.


Wut?

:lol:

I mean you didn't even quote me right and you edited the bit where I clearly said these warnings have been there since classification began, not since always.

And to suggest there's some weird 'progress' going from zero awareness to zero tolerance... Actually I don't really have much of a fuck what point you're making. That content warnings are part of an increasing campaign of zero tolerance against people with zero awareness?

Nah. It's just another label most people won't even read. Another sticker to peel off the Blu-Ray.
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