Political and religious ideology.

The UK missed a bullet by rejecting Corbyn's anti Semetism.

Anything that doesn't fit anywhere else.

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Re: Political and religious ideology.

#21  Postby Fallible » Jan 09, 2020 12:51 pm

Hermit wrote:Play with someone else, Fallible.


Play what, exactly? My point was never about the forum being better off without him here, so replying about how the forum would fare without him here wasn’t relevant. I posted a one-line joke comment about preferring him when he wasn’t here. Nothing else was implied. I may be odd, but I find it irritating when people assume I mean something other than what I’ve written. You probably feel like I did when you made that first comment to me right about now.
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Re: Political and religious ideology.

#22  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jan 09, 2020 8:42 pm

Alan B wrote:
Angelo wrote:Corbyn is deeply anti-Semitic and anti-Israel, and in addition to that, he is an open supporter of jihad terrorists. He has referred to members of Hamas and Hizballah as his “friends.” Hamas has tweeted: “We salute Jeremy Corbyn’s supportive positions to the Palestinians.”

I don't conflate anti-Semitism and anti-Israel.

Angelo does.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Political and religious ideology.

#23  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jan 09, 2020 8:45 pm

Not only does Angelo post a wall of right-wing propaganda, he doesn't even provide proper annotation when copy-pasting entire paragraphs.

*Edit. Probable original source:
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2020/01/uk-jeremy-corbyn-praised-inclusive-tolerant-iran-at-pro-soleimani-london-islamic-centre
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Political and religious ideology.

#24  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 09, 2020 9:18 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad_Watch

Jihad Watch is an anti-Muslim conspiracy blog run by Robert B. Spencer and affiliated with the David Horowitz Freedom Center.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_B._Spencer

Spencer co-founded the anti-Muslim[1][2][3][4] group Stop Islamization of America (also known as the American Freedom Defense Initiative) with Pamela Geller in 2010. The organization is designated as hate groups by the Anti-Defamation League[21] and the Southern Poverty Law Center.[22][23][24] Along with Geller, he led a campaign to stop the building of Park51, an Islamic community center near the World Trade Center, which they referred to as the "Ground Zero Mosque".[17]

...

Anders Breivik, the Norwegian spree killer behind the 2011 Norway terrorist attacks which killed 77, cited Spencer 64 times in his manifesto and wrote of him, "About Islam I recommend essentially everything written by Robert Spencer."


Ban from entering the UK

On June 26, 2013, Spencer and Pamela Geller were banned from entering the UK.[40] They were due to speak at an English Defence League march



We 'dodged the antisemite bullet' by laying on the ground bleeding out from a barrage of anti-Muslim bullets. The hypocrisy of pretending to give a damn about prejudice in order to promulgate prejudice.
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Re: Political and religious ideology.

#25  Postby Mr. Skeptic » Jan 14, 2020 3:49 pm

Spearthrower wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad_Watch

Jihad Watch is an anti-Muslim conspiracy blog run by Robert B. Spencer and affiliated with the David Horowitz Freedom Center.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_B._Spencer

Spencer co-founded the anti-Muslim[1][2][3][4] group Stop Islamization of America (also known as the American Freedom Defense Initiative) with Pamela Geller in 2010. The organization is designated as hate groups by the Anti-Defamation League[21] and the Southern Poverty Law Center.[22][23][24] Along with Geller, he led a campaign to stop the building of Park51, an Islamic community center near the World Trade Center, which they referred to as the "Ground Zero Mosque".[17]

...

Anders Breivik, the Norwegian spree killer behind the 2011 Norway terrorist attacks which killed 77, cited Spencer 64 times in his manifesto and wrote of him, "About Islam I recommend essentially everything written by Robert Spencer."


Ban from entering the UK

On June 26, 2013, Spencer and Pamela Geller were banned from entering the UK.[40] They were due to speak at an English Defence League march



We 'dodged the antisemite bullet' by laying on the ground bleeding out from a barrage of anti-Muslim bullets. The hypocrisy of pretending to give a damn about prejudice in order to promulgate prejudice.


We should note that Islam (the ideology and the religion), is different from Muslims (the people, Arabs). It's just that nazis, reactionaries, and conservatives like to conflict the two, which is why we can't talk about Islam without being called racist or xenophobic.
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Re: Political and religious ideology.

#26  Postby Hermit » Jan 14, 2020 4:23 pm

Mr. Skeptic wrote:
We should note that Islam (the ideology and the religion), is different from Muslims (the people, Arabs).

We should also note that most Muslims are not Arabs. There are (nominally) 1.9 billion Muslims and there are circa 430 million Arabs. The largest Muslim nation is Indonesia. 87.2% of its 268 million inhabitants are Muslim
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Re: Political and religious ideology.

#27  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 14, 2020 4:45 pm

Mr. Skeptic wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad_Watch

Jihad Watch is an anti-Muslim conspiracy blog run by Robert B. Spencer and affiliated with the David Horowitz Freedom Center.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_B._Spencer

Spencer co-founded the anti-Muslim[1][2][3][4] group Stop Islamization of America (also known as the American Freedom Defense Initiative) with Pamela Geller in 2010. The organization is designated as hate groups by the Anti-Defamation League[21] and the Southern Poverty Law Center.[22][23][24] Along with Geller, he led a campaign to stop the building of Park51, an Islamic community center near the World Trade Center, which they referred to as the "Ground Zero Mosque".[17]

...

Anders Breivik, the Norwegian spree killer behind the 2011 Norway terrorist attacks which killed 77, cited Spencer 64 times in his manifesto and wrote of him, "About Islam I recommend essentially everything written by Robert Spencer."


Ban from entering the UK

On June 26, 2013, Spencer and Pamela Geller were banned from entering the UK.[40] They were due to speak at an English Defence League march



We 'dodged the antisemite bullet' by laying on the ground bleeding out from a barrage of anti-Muslim bullets. The hypocrisy of pretending to give a damn about prejudice in order to promulgate prejudice.


We should note that Islam (the ideology and the religion), is different from Muslims (the people, Arabs). It's just that nazis, reactionaries, and conservatives like to conflict the two, which is why we can't talk about Islam without being called racist or xenophobic.



I've never had a problem criticizing either Islam or racism. Islam is a vile anti-human doctrine, but Muslims are people, can be of any 'race', and like all other people can be good, bad, and everything in between.
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Re: Political and religious ideology.

#28  Postby Mr. Skeptic » Jan 14, 2020 5:06 pm

I know. It's just frustrating that anti-Islam activism (Islam is basically proto-nazism. Its main tenets are anti-semitism, militarism, heroism, and authoritarianism) is conflated with hate crimes committed against brown people or anti-brown hate speech.
Last edited by Mr. Skeptic on Jan 14, 2020 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Political and religious ideology.

#29  Postby Hermit » Jan 14, 2020 5:10 pm

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Re: Political and religious ideology.

#30  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 14, 2020 5:21 pm

Mr. Skeptic wrote:I know. It's just frustrating that anti-Islam activism (Islam is basically proto-nazism. Its main tenants are anti-semitism, militarism, heroism, and authoritarianism) is conflated with hate crimes committed against brown people or anti-brown hate speech.



To call it Nazism is to completely mistake it; you may be able to find some similarities between the two (as you could with the other 2 Abrahamic faiths as well), but that does not make them the same thing. If the desire is activism against it, then it is surely vital to at least be able to accurately define it.
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Re: Political and religious ideology.

#31  Postby Mr. Skeptic » Jan 14, 2020 7:58 pm

Islam is the belief and worship of God Allah, as well as the Quran. It means "submission to god" in Arabic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam
Nazism is a far-right ideology that emphasizes anti-democratic thought, is anti-communist, anti-Marxist, anti-capitalist, and anti-semitic, with a basis of racial supremacism, fascism, totalitarianism, and militarism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism

While many religions have at least one of these as a result of their doctrine, being constructed by ignorant, brutish, tribal peoples, Islam has many of these, which is why it's accurate to say that it's proto-nazism. Islam has at least racial supremacism, fascism, totalitarianism, militarism, anti-semitism. Nazis also tend to be very reactionary towards social progress, such as gender fluidity, and gender roles. So do many Muslims.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_violence
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_war
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquest
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_ ... f_Muhammad
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qutbism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran_and_violence
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad_in_Hadith
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_state
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-Islamism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide_caliphate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_antisemitism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamofascism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political ... s_of_Islam
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_the_Arab_world
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_fundamentalism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_in_Islam
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_roles_in_Islam
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and ... egregation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modesty_in_Islam
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Islamic_law
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_blasphemy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious ... sion#Islam
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Pillars_of_Islam

Most Muslims are right-leaning, this is no surprise.
https://www.pewforum.org/2017/07/26/pol ... ial-views/
https://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the ... -politics/
https://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the ... -overview/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_in_I ... nion_polls
There is a handful of Muslims who interpret their Quran's very liberally to be pro-LGBTQ+ or secular, but we must attribute those people to being convinced of rational arguments rather than their doctrine. They're no different than liberal Christians or Jews.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_feminism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_a ... _movements
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Re: Political and religious ideology.

#32  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 14, 2020 8:06 pm

Islam is the belief and worship of God Allah, as well as the Quran. It means "submission to god" in Arabic.


Not to be funny or anything, but I didn't ask you for a lecture on Islam - I know what it is.
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Re: Political and religious ideology.

#33  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 14, 2020 8:07 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
To call it Nazism is to completely mistake it; you may be able to find some similarities between the two (as you could with the other 2 Abrahamic faiths as well), but that does not make them the same thing. If the desire is activism against it, then it is surely vital to at least be able to accurately define it.


Your reply seems to be: there are some similarities between the two.

Not that you really listed any.


While many religions have at least one of these as a result of their doctrine, being constructed by ignorant, brutish, tribal peoples, Islam has many of these, which is why it's accurate to say that it's proto-nazism.


This is a non-sequitur.
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Re: Political and religious ideology.

#34  Postby Mr. Skeptic » Jan 14, 2020 8:27 pm

Those similarities are important. It's (functionally) Nazism and thus should be treated as such. I listed a bunch of similarities. What are the differences between Islam and Nazism that I'm simply avoiding, other than the fact that it's a religion (which is a moot point anyway; nazism is based on fascism, which has religious under and overtones, not mention that you have to take it on faith that whites are superior to other races. That makes it at least a political religion; a political ideology that is based on faith and political mysticism, the belief that certain, often sacred, political actions and stances, should work as always, even if they never do. It's basically the Golden Hammer fallacy and wishful thinking.)
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Re: Political and religious ideology.

#35  Postby Fallible » Jan 14, 2020 8:33 pm

You could say anything that you’ve said about Islam there about Christianity.
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Re: Political and religious ideology.

#36  Postby Mr. Skeptic » Jan 14, 2020 8:39 pm

Fallible wrote:You could say anything that you’ve said about Islam there about Christianity.

I agree, but Christianity has been secularized (mostly), Islam hasn't. Most if not all of the Muslim majority countries have reactionary or conservative parties in control with few liberal or leftist parties being even relevant to the political process. Of course, unless you include the USA into the equation.
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Re: Political and religious ideology.

#37  Postby Fallible » Jan 14, 2020 9:08 pm

If you agree, it would seem strange that you single Islam out for the accusation. You cannot appeal to the fundamentals of Islam to bolster your point and then also appeal to later secularisation of Christianity for why it is different. Christianity has not changed since the New Testament in terms of fundamentals. The rest is people applying the gospels as they see fit. It therefore doesn’t really matter if Christianity has become ‘secularised’ by its adherents in recent history.
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Re: Political and religious ideology.

#38  Postby Mr. Skeptic » Jan 14, 2020 10:15 pm

Fallible wrote:If you agree, it would seem strange that you single Islam out for the accusation. You cannot appeal to the fundamentals of Islam to bolster your point and then also appeal to later secularisation of Christianity for why it is different. Christianity has not changed since the New Testament in terms of fundamentals. The rest is people applying the gospels as they see fit. It therefore doesn’t really matter if Christianity has become ‘secularised’ by its adherents in recent history.

Most moderate Muslims hold right and even alt-right (to our prescriptive) views on society. That's because the majority of Islamic countries are reactionary. Most moderate Christians often don't. They don't believe in the subjugation of women, the LGBTQ+ and minorities. Islam and Christianity have both fundamentalists (true followers), but Islam has the 'moderate' reactionary powerbase from which to pull from. Christianity simply doesn't.
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Re: Political and religious ideology.

#39  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 15, 2020 5:49 am

Mr. Skeptic wrote:Those similarities are important.


The similarities are because they're networks of ideas held by large groups of people, and consequently there are positions taken which can be mapped to scales. So for example, we can make on a scale of authoritarianism to individualism, but that only really offers us 3 possibilities - authoritarian, individualist, something in between. Finding a few such positions which are similar between 2 different networks of ideas doesn't mean they are substantively the same or linked with one another, it means they have a few similarities.


Mr. Skeptic wrote:It's (functionally) Nazism and thus should be treated as such.


1) It's not 'functionally Nazism' at all - you've tried to argue that but haven't managed to even with a wide open platform.
2) Nazism in Western societies is like saying 'pedophilia' - there's nowhere lower to go, so it's about as negative a charge as you can make.
3) Nazis don't exhibit a range of characteristics like Muslims do - you don't find tolerant Nazis because Nazism is intolerant, whereas you factually do find tolerant Muslims who genuinely believe their tolerance arises from their Islamic belief.

I fear you are massively over-simplifying this, and that cannot produce a good outcome.


Mr. Skeptic wrote:I listed a bunch of similarities.


Yes, that's what I said you did - but even your list of alleged similarities was suspect to be honest.

I can list a bunch of similarities between humans and clouds, between Chelsea football supporters and ewoks, and between Capitalists and naked mole rats... that doesn't mean they're the same thing; it means there are some similarities.


Mr. Skeptic wrote: What are the differences between Islam and Nazism that I'm simply avoiding, other than the fact that it's a religion (which is a moot point anyway; nazism is based on fascism, which has religious under and overtones, not mention that you have to take it on faith that whites are superior to other races.


If there was a real expectation to list all the ways in which Islam and Nazism differ, it would take volumes of writing - whereas you've listed a handful of superficial ways, and most of those are suspect already. But to name a few: Islam is quite fundamentally about submission to God - Nazism isn't about submission to anything. Islam contains instructions on proper and forbidden ways to live your life in alignment with God's supposed wishes, even down to performing ablutions - Nazism has nothing to say on this at all. Islam contains numerous detailed rituals and ceremonies because it's a religion, whereas Nazism - being political - has no interest or content about this.

Even if I had the interest in listing every way in which they differ, I seriously doubt I could find the time to be exhaustive.


Mr. Skeptic wrote:That makes it at least a political religion; a political ideology that is based on faith and political mysticism, the belief that certain, often sacred, political actions and stances, should work as always, even if they never do. It's basically the Golden Hammer fallacy and wishful thinking.)


ALL organised religions are political; they always have been, it's one of the defining features of an organised religion.
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Re: Political and religious ideology.

#40  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 15, 2020 5:56 am

Mr. Skeptic wrote:
Fallible wrote:If you agree, it would seem strange that you single Islam out for the accusation. You cannot appeal to the fundamentals of Islam to bolster your point and then also appeal to later secularisation of Christianity for why it is different. Christianity has not changed since the New Testament in terms of fundamentals. The rest is people applying the gospels as they see fit. It therefore doesn’t really matter if Christianity has become ‘secularised’ by its adherents in recent history.


Most moderate Muslims hold right and even alt-right (to our prescriptive) views on society.


The assuredly do not hold the latter: you're making the same fallacious argument as you are by comparing Islam and Nazism.

The word you are failing to appropriately use here is 'conservative'.


Mr. Skeptic wrote:That's because the majority of Islamic countries are reactionary.


Which is because religion is reactionary, and many Islamic countries are either theocratic or quasi-theocratic. Islam's core component of submission to Allah doubles up on this, for sure, but again, this is a component of the Abrahamic religions through and through.


Mr. Skeptic wrote:Most moderate Christians often don't. They don't believe in the subjugation of women, the LGBTQ+ and minorities.


And these moderate Christians as defined have existed for at most 2 generations. They tend to be the 'cultural Christians', whereas the more ardent believers are those who pass into law anti-abortion bills in the USA for example.


Mr. Skeptic wrote:Islam and Christianity have both fundamentalists (true followers), but Islam has the 'moderate' reactionary powerbase from which to pull from. Christianity simply doesn't.


I honestly don't think you know what a moderate Muslim is. For me, you're running on stereotype not direct experience.
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