Rates of HIV and other STIs in the LGBT community

[Thomas Eshuis]

So what is it Thommo? Gays are more promiscuous but they use condoms more often than straight people? Is that your argument? So how then, in simple terms and in your own words, have they ended up being the most HIV infected group? Do you think it's because anal sex is riskier? If so, maybe they should stop doing it. Is it because of high prevalence to begin with? Well then who do you think is causing that? You think straight people are giving it to them, or could it be that the high prevalence is due to them giving it to each other and spreading it around via the promiscuity among them that is well established to be fact?

1. It's gay men or people. Not gays, they're not a species.
2. You have yet to present evidence that gay men are more promiscuous than straight men, even though I already presented evidence to the contrary.
3. Even after repeatedly being corrected on this, by multiple people, you keep peddling the nonsense that gay men form the largest group of HIV infected. At best this demonstrates a failure of reading comprehension, at worst dishonesty and possibly homophobia.
4. Anal sex is neither practiced exclusively by gay men, nor do all gay men engage in anal sex.

Oh but Thomas, Bartholol is only here because he's got the best interest of gay people at heart.

Don't you see how by asking him to substantiate his claims with actual numbers and statistics, you are undermining the wellbeing of gay people?

You're buying this, right? We've all totally got him wrong.

Yup, sure darn never seen anything like this before, never. Nosirree!

[Rumraket]

Rumraket, I never claimed that gays don't have the personal freedom to do what they like. That's a given, of course they have that freedom. You suddenly showed up to inform me that they do have that right, as though I had somehow claimed otherwise. I merely said that they were doing it, not that they can't. That's called a strawman on your part.

The reason why you put so much energy into telling me that they can do what they like, knowing damn well that I never claimed otherwise, is precisely because you condone it.

So now you're telling me what my opinion is despite having been informed the contrary? We can just do that? We'll see.

Otherwise you wouldn't have felt the need to point out the obvious fact that they have free will.

An alternative interpretation of me spending time pointing that out could have been to anticipate and rebut any putative argument that gay people should have their freedoms stifled. There's been some history of people doing that, wanting to stifle the freedoms of gay people.

Could that be it?

You also went to great lengths to say that if consenting adults want to do that kind of risky stuff, then that's fine. That doesn't sound like someone who does not condone it.

The freedom to do it, not the act itself. I'm also, actually, fine with people cave-diving. You'll never get me in one though. Does that sound like an endorsement? If you think it does, I recommend school, all over again, elementary level and up.

Your opinion is that if consenting gays want to have anal sex (risky) with multiple partners (risky) with a condom (risky), then that is their "god" (or whatever) given right, and that it's fine.

That is their right, yes. I'm fine with them having the right to do it, and I don't think I or anyone should be given the right to prevent them from doing it, or punishing them if they do. But if a gay person was to ever ask me if they should do it, as in go have anal sex with multiple partners without protection, I'd say no I think at the very least they should use a condom, and take whatever other precautions possible.

Meanwhile, I'm the one emphasizing that it's foolish.

Because that needs to be said when we've agreed it risky. We now also need to call it foolish, and when we do not, we are implicitly endorsing it, right?

No, wrong, you fucking idiot.

You have not once joined me in condemning it as foolish behavior. Instead all you care about is the right of gays to have lots of anal fun with whoever, without a condom.

All I care about? How did you establish that?

Hence your emphasis on that, rather than on the foolishness of it.

Perhaps now is the time for you to quit pretending to care about the wellbeing of gays.

*SPROING* There went another irony meter.

Why would anyone ever spend so much time talking about the wellbeing of gay people if they did not explicitly desire to hurt them? Since we can take a person's stating something to mean the diametrically opposite of their stated opinion(see above), it's now clear that you intensely desire to hurt gay people by anally raping them against their free will and transmitting HIV to them. Right?

What are you, 12?

[bartolomiow]

Meanwhile, I'm the one emphasizing that it's foolish.

You only emphasize that it's foolish when gay people do it. I wonder why?

And what's your solution, exactly?

Because the rate of HIV among gays is very high, as has been pointed out. If you're looking for solutions (which you are not, because you don't give a hoot about gay people), I would say refrain from engaging in anal sex with strangers, stop being so promiscuous, and use condoms.

I would imagine Rumraket's solution would be "Hey man, you only live once! Do as you please! Just don't call me a bigot!" You might have gathered that I do not share that view.

[Thomas Eshuis]

Rumraket, I never claimed that gays don't have the personal freedom to do what they like. That's a given, of course they have that freedom. You suddenly showed up to inform me that they do have that right, as though I had somehow claimed otherwise. I merely said that they were doing it, not that they can't. That's called a strawman on your part.

Hello, pot calling the porcelain black.

The reason why you put so much energy into telling me that they can do what they like, knowing damn well that I never claimed otherwise, is precisely because you condone it. Otherwise you wouldn't have felt the need to point out the obvious fact that they have free will.

Stop pretending to read minds.

Meanwhile, I'm the one emphasizing that it's foolish. You have not once joined me in condemning it as foolish behavior. Instead all you care about is the right of gays to have lots of anal fun with whoever, without a condom. Hence your emphasis on that, rather than on the foolishness of it.

Perhaps now is the time for you to quit pretending to care about the wellbeing of gays.

Qed Rumraket, you called it.

[Rumraket]

Meanwhile, I'm the one emphasizing that it's foolish.

You only emphasize that it's foolish when gay people do it. I wonder why?

And what's your solution, exactly?

You need to go tell them. Except if you do, you must mean the opposite of your stated opinion, otherwise why would you have bothered spending so much time saying it?

[Thommo]

Instead all you care about is the right of gays to have lots of anal fun with whoever, without a condom.

I quite enjoyed this sentence, it's tantalisingly close to the truth - that is to say that a bunch of people here seem to care about gay rights - whilst never quite threatening to actually get there.

[bartolomiow]

Rumraket, you've gone beyond the point of embarrassing yourself. I really don't know what to tell you at this point. It's funny how your posts contain many different words and yet all I see is "blah blah blah...anger and rage...blah blah blah...backtracking...blah blah blah".

If you keep posting you will only succeed in making me laugh more than I have done so far. I never knew how hilarious human stupidity could get.

[Rumraket]

Meanwhile, I'm the one emphasizing that it's foolish.

You only emphasize that it's foolish when gay people do it. I wonder why?

And what's your solution, exactly?

Because the rate of HIV among gays is very high, as has been pointed out. If you're looking for solutions (which you are not, because you don't give a hoot about gay people), I would say refrain from engaging in anal sex with strangers, stop being so promiscuous, and use condoms.

You understand that the risks associated with unprotected sex, anal sex, and promiscuity, is all part of comprehensive sex education? I take it you're an advocate of comprehensive sex education from an early age, and easy access to protection and contraceptives right?

[Thomas Eshuis]

Meanwhile, I'm the one emphasizing that it's foolish.

You only emphasize that it's foolish when gay people do it. I wonder why?

And what's your solution, exactly?

Because the rate of HIV among gays is very high, as has been pointed out.

It's higher among straight women though, yet you keep dodging that issue.

If you're looking for solutions (which you are not, because you don't give a hoot about gay people), I would say refrain from engaging in anal sex with strangers, stop being so promiscuous, and use condoms.

Tip: No matter how many times you throw the same homophobic bullshit online, it wont magically become real or reasonable.

I would imagine Rumraket's solution would be "Hey man, you only live once! Do as you please! Just don't call me a bigot!" You might have gathered that I do not share that view.

Given your insistent straw-manning of Rumraket, what you imagine about him could not be less relevant or reliable.

[Thomas Eshuis]

Rumraket, you've gone beyond the point of embarrassing yourself. I really don't know what to tell you at this point. It's funny how your posts contain many different words and yet all I see is "blah blah blah...anger and rage...blah blah blah...backtracking...blah blah blah".

If you keep posting you will only succeed in making me laugh more than I have done so far. I never knew how hilarious human stupidity could get.

I can't tell whether the above testifies to an extreme lack of self awareness or dishonesty.
Although neither option bodes well of course.

[Rumraket]

Rumraket, you've gone beyond the point of embarrassing yourself.

In what way? By exposing your fatuous attempt to pretend you're in any way interested in the well being of gay people, and your subsequent insistence that I must mean the diametrically opposite of what I have informed you?

I really don't know what to tell you at this point.

It's your own fault though, you screwed up and exposed yourself.

[bartolomiow]

Meanwhile, I'm the one emphasizing that it's foolish.

You only emphasize that it's foolish when gay people do it. I wonder why?

And what's your solution, exactly?

Because the rate of HIV among gays is very high, as has been pointed out. If you're looking for solutions (which you are not, because you don't give a hoot about gay people), I would say refrain from engaging in anal sex with strangers, stop being so promiscuous, and use condoms.

You understand that the risks associated with unprotected sex, anal sex, and promiscuity, is all part of comprehensive sex education? I take it you're an advocate of comprehensive sex education from an early age, and easy access to protection and contraceptives right?

Oh I see. It's because no one tells gays about those things. And if by chance any of them figure out what a condom is for, they hide them from them. Right, got it.

[Thomas Eshuis]

You only emphasize that it's foolish when gay people do it. I wonder why?

And what's your solution, exactly?

Because the rate of HIV among gays is very high, as has been pointed out. If you're looking for solutions (which you are not, because you don't give a hoot about gay people), I would say refrain from engaging in anal sex with strangers, stop being so promiscuous, and use condoms.

You understand that the risks associated with unprotected sex, anal sex, and promiscuity, is all part of comprehensive sex education? I take it you're an advocate of comprehensive sex education from an early age, and easy access to protection and contraceptives right?

Oh I see. It's because no one tells gays about those things. And if by chance any of them figure out what a condom is for, they hide them from them. Right, got it.

So you are incapable of responding to what your interlocutors actually post. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Thommo]

Meanwhile, I'm the one emphasizing that it's foolish.

You only emphasize that it's foolish when gay people do it. I wonder why?

And what's your solution, exactly?

Because the rate of HIV among gays is very high, as has been pointed out.

It's higher among straight women though, yet you keep dodging that issue.

I don't think that's right. What is your source?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3805037/

In 2012, men who have sex with men (MSM) are at substantial risk for HIV infection in virtually every context studied (panel 1).1,3,4 This risk has been present since the syndrome now known as AIDS was first described in previously healthy homosexual men in Los Angeles (CA, USA) in 1981.5–7 Despite decades of research and community, medical, and public health efforts, high HIV prevalence and incidence burdens have been reported in MSM throughout the world.8 In many high-income settings—including Australia, France, the UK, and the USA—overall HIV epidemic trends are in decline except in MSM, where they have been expanding in the era of highly active antiretroviral therapy (HAART) in what have been described as re-emergent epidemics in MSM.9,10 In the USA, HIV infections in MSM are estimated to be increasing at roughly 8% per year since 2001.9 And in much of Africa, Asia, and Latin America, the highest rates of HIV infection in any risk group are in these men.8

However, our understanding of worldwide epidemiology is far from complete. By the end of 2011, 93 of 196 countries had not reported on HIV prevalence in MSM in the previous 5 years.11 In several regions, notably the Middle East, north Africa, and sub-Saharan Africa, data for HIV infections in MSM are only emerging.12,13 Data gaps and challenges to HIV research, surveillance, and epidemiological characterisation in MSM are largely the result of the hidden and stigmatised nature of MSM populations in much of the world, and of ongoing criminalisation of homosexuality and other forms of same-sex behaviour.11 These structural realities have limited our understanding, and might also have crucial roles in the vulnerability of MSM to HIV.14,15 We review the global epidemiology and disease burden of HIV infection in MSM; individual-level, couple, and network-level risks for HIV acquisition and transmission; biological aspects of anorectal HIV transmission; and molecular epidemiology advances, with the aim of understanding why MSM continue to bear such disproportionate burdens of HIV.

These links are supposed (according to the citation in some UN page I opened and have now closed) to contain information of HIV prevalence in women globally, although I couldn't find it explicitly:
https://www.unaids.org/sites/default/fi ... 017_en.pdf
https://www.unaids.org/sites/default/fi ... hiv_en.pdf

[SafeAsMilk]

Meanwhile, I'm the one emphasizing that it's foolish.

You only emphasize that it's foolish when gay people do it. I wonder why?

And what's your solution, exactly?

Because the rate of HIV among gays is very high, as has been pointed out.

So actions that increase one's risk of infection aren't foolish among people where the HIV rate isn't "very high"? Whoops, looks like you've hit the wall

If you're looking for solutions (which you are not, because you don't give a hoot about gay people),

Please, the bullshit you're peddling makes it clear as day you don't give a rat's ass about gay people. All you care about is grinding your axe.

I would say refrain from engaging in anal sex with strangers, stop being so promiscuous, and use condoms.

Gosh, those are things that would decrease HIV and all other STD's across the board. Does this mean you don't give a shit about anyone who isn't gay, since apparently you show you care about gay people by singling them out for abuse?

I would imagine Rumraket's solution would be "Hey man, you only live once! Do as you please! Just don't call me a bigot!" You might have gathered that I do not share that view.

I gather that you don't have a particularly well considered view, and are unable to represent other people's views accurately.

[Rumraket]

You only emphasize that it's foolish when gay people do it. I wonder why?

And what's your solution, exactly?

Because the rate of HIV among gays is very high, as has been pointed out. If you're looking for solutions (which you are not, because you don't give a hoot about gay people), I would say refrain from engaging in anal sex with strangers, stop being so promiscuous, and use condoms.

You understand that the risks associated with unprotected sex, anal sex, and promiscuity, is all part of comprehensive sex education? I take it you're an advocate of comprehensive sex education from an early age, and easy access to protection and contraceptives right?

Oh I see. It's because no one tells gays about those things. And if by chance any of them figure out what a condom is for, they hide them from them. Right, got it.

So you think they're already told, but they need to be told even more by you and me, and THEN it'll totally work and people who engage in unprotected sex will stop doing so?

What exactly is it you think that needs to be done, if not better and more sex education? I mean you say we need to call it foolish to engage in unprotected sex. How would we do that, except by telling them through comprehensive sex education? By teaching and informing people who engage in unprotected sex that they are engaging in risky behavior?

Now you seem to be saying that's not good enough, you're implicitly complaining that because they're already told this, it's not enough? So what then? What's next? How do we finally get people to stop practicing unsafe sex? Telling them through sex education is clearly not enough, right?

[bartolomiow]

Safeasmilk, gays are disproportionately affected by HIV. Anyone who takes risks is foolish, but gays are the ones who are engaging in such foolish behavior more than anyone else.

[bartolomiow]

Because the rate of HIV among gays is very high, as has been pointed out. If you're looking for solutions (which you are not, because you don't give a hoot about gay people), I would say refrain from engaging in anal sex with strangers, stop being so promiscuous, and use condoms.

You understand that the risks associated with unprotected sex, anal sex, and promiscuity, is all part of comprehensive sex education? I take it you're an advocate of comprehensive sex education from an early age, and easy access to protection and contraceptives right?

Oh I see. It's because no one tells gays about those things. And if by chance any of them figure out what a condom is for, they hide them from them. Right, got it.

So you think they're already told, but they need to be told even more by you and me, and THEN it'll totally work and people who engage in unprotected sex will stop doing so?

What exactly is it you think that needs to be done, if not better and more sex education? I mean you say we need to call it foolish to engage in unprotected sex. How would we do that, except by telling them through comprehensive sex education? By teaching and informing people who engage in unprotected sex that they are engaging in risky behavior?

Now you seem to be saying that's not good enough, you're implicitly complaining that because they're already told this, it's not enough? So what then? What's next? How do we finally get people to stop practicing unsafe sex? Telling them through sex education is clearly not enough, right?

Straight people don't seem to have this issue. Gays do. That's the difference. Gays aren't stupid. They know as well as everyone else what the risks are. But a lot of them love taking risks as people like you cheer them on. You go guys! You only live once!

[Thommo]

Just doing a spot of reading about promiscuity and found this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promiscuity

In 2008, a U.S. university study of international promiscuity found that Finns have had the largest number of sex partners in the industrialized world, and British people have the largest number among big western industrial nations. The study measured one-night stands, attitudes to casual sex, and number of sexual partners.[10][11][12] A 2014 nationwide survey in the United Kingdom named Liverpool the country's most promiscuous city.[13]

Which seemed stereotype defying to me and raised a smile.

Anyway, fair warning to you all - sleep with a Finn, Brit or Scouser at your own risk!!

[Rumraket]

You understand that the risks associated with unprotected sex, anal sex, and promiscuity, is all part of comprehensive sex education? I take it you're an advocate of comprehensive sex education from an early age, and easy access to protection and contraceptives right?

Oh I see. It's because no one tells gays about those things. And if by chance any of them figure out what a condom is for, they hide them from them. Right, got it.

So you think they're already told, but they need to be told even more by you and me, and THEN it'll totally work and people who engage in unprotected sex will stop doing so?

What exactly is it you think that needs to be done, if not better and more sex education? I mean you say we need to call it foolish to engage in unprotected sex. How would we do that, except by telling them through comprehensive sex education? By teaching and informing people who engage in unprotected sex that they are engaging in risky behavior?

Now you seem to be saying that's not good enough, you're implicitly complaining that because they're already told this, it's not enough? So what then? What's next? How do we finally get people to stop practicing unsafe sex? Telling them through sex education is clearly not enough, right?

Straight people don't seem to have this issue. Gays do. That's the difference. Gays aren't stupid. They know as well as everyone else what the risks are.

Dude, you're not answering my questions. Just stop hiding your real opinions. Come out and say it, clearly you are afraid of saying what you really believe. Stop beating around the bush. What should we do to reduce the amount of unprotected sex gay people have?

You think they're already told in sex education that it's risky and unsafe. It's not working, so what next?

But a lot of them love taking risks as people like you cheer them on. You go guys! You only live once!

Quote me cheering unprotected sex on. Quote it.