Repeal the 8th.

Amendment pertaining to abortion.

Anything that doesn't fit anywhere else.

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Re: Repeal the 8th.

#321  Postby hackenslash » May 16, 2018 11:45 am

jamest wrote:Then secular morality is flawed in this instance, since the principle of bodily autonomy does not and certainly should not favour one individual over the other.


It doesn't favour one individual over the other, it treats them as exactly equal, and this little bit of bollocks is the clearest indication that you' re not getting what bodily autonomy entails. The clump of cells has exactly the same right to bodily autonomy, if it can achieve it. What it doesn't have the right to do is to use the corporeal resources of another without their expressed consent, because that is slavery.

Or we can revisit the notion of you serving as a human dialysis machine against your will again, if you like.

Why is this difficult for you to comprehend? I have no idea.


I agree with the last part.

Btw, it's good to see you posting again. My regards.


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Re: Repeal the 8th.

#322  Postby nunnington » May 16, 2018 2:19 pm

Bodily autonomy is historically interesting as a notion, as it fits in with previous critiques of patriarchy, and its attempts to constrain female bodies, for example, by the fetishization of virginity, double standards in relation to sexual morality, the identification of women as wives and mothers, the shaming of women over their bodies ('too fat'), and so on. Pregnancy is certainly pertinent here, as the wife was meant to produce heirs, (sons), and also plenty of offspring, in many societies. So the contents of the womb were seen as property of the husband, and also the state.

So forcible childbirth seems to fit in here, and in a country such as Ireland, formerly heavily Catholic, there is particular force to the repeal of the 8th. I would be dumb-founded if 'no' wins. The death of Savita Halappanavar was surely the last nail in the coffin of forced birth.
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Re: Repeal the 8th.

#323  Postby Sendraks » May 16, 2018 2:40 pm

Friends of mine over in Ireland just posted this horror on facebook, they're understandably annoyed at how low the "no" vote side are prepared to sink in deceiving people.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/no-campaign-defends-booklet-resembling-a-government-publication-1.3496559
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Re: Repeal the 8th.

#324  Postby THWOTH » May 16, 2018 3:35 pm

Seems to me the entire debate about the 8th rests on this principle of individual autonomy, the idea that all individual humans are free, that they own themselves and have dominion over their bodies and what they do with them. Furthermore the matter rests on the interplay of more nebulous societal attitudes to things like sex, the role and status of women in society, and obviously women's fertility.

Pregnancy and childbirth are not by any means trivial matters, they are major life-changing events in both the physical and psychological sense--and in the economic sense too--and the consequences of pregnancy and childbirth for mothers (and, hopefully, for fathers as well) bring certain responsibilities that persist well beyond the due date - indeed, many of these responsibilities last a lifetime. Pregnancy and childbirth are also not without potential and serious risks of harm to women and their developing offspring. I won't list the risks here, but even so-called normal pregnancies and deliveries can be, and often are, a physically and emotionally challenging experience that has a significant and long-term impact on the lives of all concerned. When one factors in wider attitudes, and particular regressive or 'traditional' attitudes to sex, women, marriage, pregnancy, childbirth, and parenthood etc, pregnancy becomes a social minefield.

Even where, as in the majority of cases, children are wanted and/or planned for pregnancy takes on the mantle of a huge mental and physical challenge - the very definition of an ordeal; something significant is being navigated here, perhaps the most significant thing any human can ever be asked to navigate, and in many cases it is something which must be endured even when the prospect inspires excitement and joy. Inevitably, and for obvious reasons, all of these concerns fall chiefly on the shoulders of women.

As I said, pregnancy and childbirth are not trivial matters. But we all knew this already didn't we[?]. It stands to reason that decisions about pregnancy and childbirth are not, and cannot be, trivialised, and yet those who dogmatically oppose abortion effectively trivialise the entire process by simply declaring that pregnant women should and must endure not just pregnancy and childbirth, but also the long-term consequences thereof, no matter how physically, psychologically, economically, or socially distressing or risky it might be, and regardless of a woman's circumstances or her own thoughts about it.

Essentially, those intransigently opposed to abortion not only deny pregnant woman their rights of self-ownership and self-determination with regards to their own bodies, their bodily autonomy as we're calling it, but in so doing they rob all women of their right to full autonomy as individual human beings - for unlike men, women's autonomy as individual human beings is but conditional on the state of their reproductive organs such that as soon as a woman 'falls' pregnant her uterus becomes automatically annexed to the opinions, desires, and/or dogmas of others. Anti-abortionists seek to own the wombs of all women, not just pregnant women, and by that to exert their self-declared dominion over women's bodies, and ultimately over their lives.

As hackenslash pointed out, jamest's position is entirely issued by fiat and entails a declaration that a bifurcated ovum is an "actual" individual human being, that is; a single human distinct from all other humans. I've asked jamest to justify his point of view with some sort of reasoned argument, but alas none has been forthcoming. Presumably jamest would feel more comfortable with the idea of an artificially created zygote gestated to term in a vat than with the prospect of women exercising choice over their bodies, their reproductive health, and their general well-being? By jamest's lights, as soon as conception occurs, by whatever means, an "actual" individual human is created, and whether it grows within a womb or a vat attached to machines is immaterial to that asserted fact - its declared right to exist supersedes all other concerns. This simply highlights how trivially jamest and his fellow travellers take pregnancy and childbirth, and in so doing they forfeit their right to be taken seriously on this matter.


edit: fix
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Re: Repeal the 8th.

#325  Postby Macdoc » May 16, 2018 3:48 pm

Canada has done well with no law governing anything but very late term abortions.
Otherwise it's entirely between a woman and her physician ....we have no abortion laws at all other than as noted.

This gives reality I think to what TWOTH is looking for.
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Re: Repeal the 8th.

#326  Postby Scot Dutchy » May 16, 2018 5:32 pm

Nothing new there. Sounds just like most abortion laws.
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Re: Repeal the 8th.

#327  Postby THWOTH » May 16, 2018 6:00 pm

I didn't realise we were looking for novelty, just bringing the Irish up-to-speed with how things are done these days.
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Re: Repeal the 8th.

#328  Postby Animavore » May 16, 2018 6:06 pm

:what:
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Re: Repeal the 8th.

#329  Postby cyghost » May 16, 2018 8:45 pm

THWOTH wrote:Seems to me the entire debate about the 8th rests on this principle of individual autonomy, the idea that all individual humans are free, that they own themselves and have dominion over their bodies and what they do with them. Furthermore the matter rests on the interplay of more nebulous societal attitudes to things like sex, the role and status of women in society, and obviously women's fertility.

Pregnancy and childbirth are not by any means trivial matters, they are major life-changing events in both the physical and psychological sense--and in the economic sense too--and the consequences of pregnancy and childbirth for mothers (and, hopefully, for fathers as well) bring certain responsibilities that persist well beyond the due date - indeed, many of these responsibilities last a lifetime. Pregnancy and childbirth are also not without potential and serious risks of harm to women and their developing offspring. I won't list the risks here, but even so-called normal pregnancies and deliveries can be, and often are, a physically and emotionally challenging experience that has a significant and long-term impact on the lives of all concerned. When one factors in wider attitudes, and particular regressive or 'traditional' attitudes to sex, women, marriage, pregnancy, childbirth, and parenthood etc, pregnancy becomes a social minefield.

Even where, as in the majority of cases, children are wanted and/or planned for pregnancy takes on the mantle of a huge mental and physical challenge - the very definition of an ordeal; something significant is being navigated here, perhaps the most significant thing any human can ever be asked to navigate, and in many cases it is something which must be endured even when the prospect inspires excitement and joy. Inevitably, and for obvious reasons, all of these concerns fall chiefly on the shoulders of women.

As I said, pregnancy and childbirth are not trivial matters. But we all knew this already didn't we[?]. It stands to reason that decisions about pregnancy and childbirth are not, and cannot be, trivialised, and yet those who dogmatically oppose abortion effectively trivialise the entire process by simply declaring that pregnant women should and must endure not just pregnancy and childbirth, but also the long-term consequences thereof, no matter how physically, psychologically, economically, or socially distressing or risky it might be, and regardless of a woman's circumstances or her own thoughts about it.

Essentially, those intransigently opposed to abortion not only deny pregnant woman their rights of self-ownership and self-determination with regards to their own bodies, their bodily autonomy as we're calling it, but in so doing they rob all women of their right to full autonomy as individual human beings - for unlike men, women's autonomy as individual human beings is but conditional on the state of their reproductive organs such that as soon as a woman 'falls' pregnant her uterus becomes automatically annexed to the opinions, desires, and/or dogmas of others. Anti-abortionists seek to own the wombs of all women, not just pregnant women, and by that to exert their self-declared dominion over women's bodies, and ultimately over their lives.

As hackenslash pointed out, jamest's position is entirely issued by fiat and entails a declaration that a bifurcated ovum is an "actual" individual human being, that is; a single human distinct from all other humans. I've asked jamest to justify his point of view with some sort of reasoned argument, but alas none has been forthcoming. Presumably jamest would feel more comfortable with the idea of an artificially created zygote gestated to term in a vat than with the prospect of women exercising choice over their bodies, their reproductive health, and their general well-being? By jamest's lights, as soon as conception occurs, by whatever means, an "actual" individual human is created, and whether it grows within a womb or a vat attached to machines is immaterial to that asserted fact - its declared right to exist supersedes all other concerns. This simply highlights how trivially jamest and his fellow travellers take pregnancy and childbirth, and in so doing they forfeit their right to be taken seriously on this matter.


edit: fix

:clap: :clap:

(I was going to hide it behind a spoiler cause it is long but fuck it, it deserves to be shown again :mrgreen: )
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Re: Repeal the 8th.

#330  Postby THWOTH » May 16, 2018 9:49 pm

Animavore wrote: :what:

I was just being snarky for effect. I have every faith that you bog-trotters will make the right choice on the day. :D
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Re: Repeal the 8th.

#331  Postby Animavore » May 16, 2018 10:17 pm

THWOTH wrote:
Animavore wrote: :what:

I was just being snarky for effect. I have every faith that you bog-trotters will make the right choice on the day. :D

Dude, first, and I think only country in the World to democratically elect for gay marriage. I'm not sure that would happen in the UK and less sure about the US. I think Ireland is now one of the most progressive countries in the World, even if our laws are slow to catch up with its people. :snooty:
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Re: Repeal the 8th.

#332  Postby THWOTH » May 16, 2018 10:27 pm

:nod: You'll get no argument from me there.
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Re: Repeal the 8th.

#333  Postby Thommo » May 17, 2018 3:32 am

It's actually remarkable how Ireland has changed in recent years. Economically too.

The cultural legacy of some of the appalling abuses of the Catholic church like the nuns who were selling babies and burying them in mass graves, seems to have been to serve as a catalyst for a cultural change of almost quantum step proportions.
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Re: Repeal the 8th.

#334  Postby Matt_B » May 17, 2018 4:34 am

Animavore wrote:
THWOTH wrote:
Animavore wrote: :what:

I was just being snarky for effect. I have every faith that you bog-trotters will make the right choice on the day. :D

Dude, first, and I think only country in the World to democratically elect for gay marriage. I'm not sure that would happen in the UK and less sure about the US. I think Ireland is now one of the most progressive countries in the World, even if our laws are slow to catch up with its people. :snooty:


It's not the only one now, as Australia also voted in support of gay marriage via a national referendum.

To be honest, I'd much prefer emotive moral issues not to be settled that way, because it gives a platform to a lot of extremists with bad arguments for a lengthy period of time that they'd be denied if it was just done as part of the usual business of government. I'd accept that this isn't always going to be possible where constitutional roadblocks have been put in place to prevent it though.

For what its worth, polling in the UK was strongly in support of gay marriage at the time the legislation was passed, although that's not quite the same as putting it to an actual vote.
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Re: Repeal the 8th.

#335  Postby Fenrir » May 17, 2018 6:08 am

TBF, there was no constitutional reason for Australia to spend large amounts denigrating minorities by running a non-binding voluntary postal survey. Marriage equality could have been legalised at any time by a simple parliamentary procedure.

It was purely a mechanism for bigoted cowards in government to delay and obfuscate and generally avoid doing their job.

Not that it did them any good.
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Re: Repeal the 8th.

#336  Postby Hermit » May 17, 2018 6:36 am

Matt_B wrote:It's not the only one now, as Australia also voted in support of gay marriage via a national referendum.

Technically, no. Australian referendums are about constitutional changes, and they are binding. A yes vote requires a double-majority, that is a majority of yes votes in a majority (in effect four out of the six) states. We had a plebiscite instead, which is not binding, so basically a government-run survey rather than a vote (and a total waste of AU$ 122 million). Parliament could have voted without it to the same eventual effect.

In the end a huge majority of the house of reps voted to amend the Marriage Act, legalising same-sex marriage. Fuck you, John "this Christian nation" Howard. Four troglodytes remained seated on the "no" bench and another dozen or so opponents absented themselves from the house. Everybody else crossed the floor to the "yes" side. The amendment flew through the third reading, and that was that.

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Re: Repeal the 8th.

#337  Postby Animavore » May 17, 2018 6:46 am

Thommo wrote:It's actually remarkable how Ireland has changed in recent years. Economically too.

The cultural legacy of some of the appalling abuses of the Catholic church like the nuns who were selling babies and burying them in mass graves, seems to have been to serve as a catalyst for a cultural change of almost quantum step proportions.


That's the problem when a country is overwhelmingly one church and religion. If it falls apart the whole population becomes disillusioned at once. It doesn't matter if one of the many US churches is scadalised, one can always claim, with higher piety, that one always knew there was something up with those East Coast, Thomian Baptists and Pastor McNeil. Your church would never become swayed by the devil.

We have other religions trying to fill the vacuum here, but when you get burnt by one religion you distrust all.
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Re: Repeal the 8th.

#338  Postby Matt_B » May 17, 2018 7:13 am

Fenrir wrote:TBF, there was no constitutional reason for Australia to spend large amounts denigrating minorities by running a non-binding voluntary postal survey. Marriage equality could have been legalised at any time by a simple parliamentary procedure.

It was purely a mechanism for bigoted cowards in government to delay and obfuscate and generally avoid doing their job.

Not that it did them any good.


I was thinking of Ireland with the constitutional issue. From what I can gather both gay marriage and abortion are explicitly restricted by it, so a referendum would be the only way to overturn either.

The machinations that led to the Australian postal survey (it wasn't even a plebiscite if we're going to get technical) are a whole other story, but suffice it to say that as early as 2013 it had already been ruled that it wasn't a constitutional issue.
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Re: Repeal the 8th.

#339  Postby Fenrir » May 17, 2018 7:53 am

It was never a constitutional issue and that never needed a ruling.

It wasn't a constitutional issue in 2004 when Johnny Howard changed the marriage act to specifically say "man and woman" and caused the problem in the first place.

You'd think not requiring a constitutional change would make things easier or at least more transparent. Ain't necessarily so.
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Re: Repeal the 8th.

#340  Postby zulumoose » May 17, 2018 7:57 am

Animavore wrote:
We have other religions trying to fill the vacuum here, but when you get burnt by one religion you distrust all.


Use of the word "vacuum" implies that there was something of substance before, or that something of substance is now required. I'm not sure whether it can be said that something is missing, but it can of course be said that hot air will readily fill a vacuum, so that clears it up I suppose.
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