So, Who is Actually Responsible for ICE Vehicle Pollution?

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So, Who is Actually Responsible for ICE Vehicle Pollution?

#1  Postby Alan B » Sep 12, 2018 7:49 pm

At the moment, in the UK, we have various councils and government authorities discussing ways to fleece the owners of IC engine vehicles by financially penalising them if they venture into certain parts of a city, even if it is their place of work.

The question is, are they the polluters or are the IC engine manufacturers the polluters?

On the one hand the vehicle owner contributes to the economy (commuting, shopping, freight, etc,) and in most cases they have no choice but to use their vehicle because of a poor and inefficient (government 'inspired'?) public or goods transport system.

On the other hand we have the vehicle manufacturers, some of whom have deliberately 'adjusted' the engine management systems of their vehicles to produce false pollution figures.Thereby admitting to deliberate intent of not to produce a low emissions vehicle.

Obviously reducing pollution in cities and elsewhere is essential, but is it the answer to tax the driving public (an easy way out IMO)? (Taxing the driver may only move the pollution elsewhere - it will become another area's problem).
Or is it to force vehicle manufacturers to produce better low pollution vehicles and to retrospectively modify existing vehicles (at their expense, of course!)?

I suppose it all depends on who is bribing, er, 'lobbying' whom.
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Re: So, Who is Actually Responsible for ICE Vehicle Pollution?

#2  Postby laklak » Sep 12, 2018 10:23 pm

We already penalize IC drivers over electrics and hybrids, there's a fuel tax.
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Re: So, Who is Actually Responsible for ICE Vehicle Pollution?

#3  Postby Macdoc » Sep 13, 2018 12:08 am

Generally accepted principle is to apply a pollution tax according to the use but a smart policy is also to ding car manufacturers for poor mileage performance and reward for low carbon by way of incentives to end users to buy.

User pays for ICE via fuel tax and to a point users can choose what level of cost they will tolerate by choosing low carbon vehicles or more efficient vehicles.

Fuel taxes pay for road maintenance etc so that is also user pays.

Progressive govs wishing to engineer cleaner air and lower carbon mandate fuel economy progression for manufacturers and can set "fleet" mpg numbers with penalties for not hitting that. That way if they sell too many gas guzzlers they get dinged for it as well as the consumer pays more for fuel both for the fuel and for the tax on the fuel.
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Re: So, Who is Actually Responsible for ICE Vehicle Pollution?

#4  Postby Alan B » Sep 13, 2018 11:12 am

The OP is about who is responsible for the pollution produced by ICE vehicles, the user or the manufacturer and who should pay.
The whole economy is based on vehicular transport, private and commercial. A 'captive audience' by any definition which the vehicle manufacturers make full use of by producing IC engines that just pass the pollution regulations (which should be tightened-up, IMO). This 'captive audience' situation has even encouraged some vehicle manufacturers to 'fiddle' the figures.

Should the 'captive audience' pay a fine because they are forced (at present) to use vehicles that barely pass the pollution regulations?

The Road Tax and fuel taxes are irrelevant to the OP since finance to support the roads infrastructure will still have to be found even in a 'pollution free' vehicle future (EVs, etc.).

Perhaps someone could start a thread on how these finances can be raised when EVs are being charged from a 'home' power source? :think:

Edit
My neighbour works for a delivery company which has to make regular trips into the centre of Birmingham, UK. The proposed 'pollution tax' (which will come into force in a couple of years) will cost his company £11,000 per year.
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Re: So, Who is Actually Responsible for ICE Vehicle Pollution?

#5  Postby Hermit » Sep 13, 2018 11:43 am

Alan B wrote:The OP is about who is responsible for the pollution produced by ICE vehicles, the user or the manufacturer and who should pay.

It does not matter who incurs the charge. In the end it is the consumer who pays it. Always. It also does not matter who is deemed responsible for ICE vehicle pollution. The point is to make internal combustion engines unattractive from a financial point of view, thus hastening their demise and thereby hopefully reducing pollution.
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Re: So, Who is Actually Responsible for ICE Vehicle Pollution?

#6  Postby Alan B » Sep 13, 2018 2:46 pm

Agreed. But it still doesn't answer the question since it will be some years, (maybe 20 or 30 :scratch: ), before we have a 'pollution free' vehicle system in place.

In the meantime the ICE manufacturers will carry on without penalty...
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Re: So, Who is Actually Responsible for ICE Vehicle Pollution?

#7  Postby Macdoc » Sep 13, 2018 7:10 pm

Why should the automotive industry pay? ...it's not like the coal and oil industry at all.

Certainly VW is paying through the nose for trying to game regulations.
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Re: So, Who is Actually Responsible for ICE Vehicle Pollution?

#8  Postby Alan B » Sep 13, 2018 9:32 pm

Macdoc wrote:Why should the automotive industry pay? ...it's not like the coal and oil industry at all.

It certainly isn't like the coal industry. In the UK the pollution coal caused was removed by banning Smog producing coal fires.
The government did not keep allowing coal to be burnt and then decided to fine the users for heating their own homes...

The regulations for ICE exhaust gases and particulates have been getting more stringent over the years, and yet with each change the ICE manufacturers somehow produced engines that 'just' managed to meet the latest limits imposed. Amazing!
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Re: So, Who is Actually Responsible for ICE Vehicle Pollution?

#9  Postby Hermit » Sep 14, 2018 1:14 am

Alan B wrote:
Macdoc wrote:The regulations for ICE exhaust gases and particulates have been getting more stringent over the years, and yet with each change the ICE manufacturers somehow produced engines that 'just' managed to meet the latest limits imposed. Amazing!

Yup. Starting with the catalytic converters in 1975. Being made with rare and precious material, such as platinum, palladium, rhodium, and gold, they were , and remain, expensive, but since all manufacturers of internal combustion engines were forced by law to install them to their motors none were placed at a competitive disadvantage. The added cost was simply added to the price of the vehicle. Once again, consumer pays.

Volkswagen, by the way, has well and truly recovered from the cost of having their fraud discovered. 2017 was the company's most profitable year ever.

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Re: So, Who is Actually Responsible for ICE Vehicle Pollution?

#10  Postby Alan B » Sep 14, 2018 8:01 am

Of course the consumer pays with each ICE 'improvement', but only once when they buy the vehicle. Not 'every time' they go shopping or deliver goods.
Now, if the regulations were so tight such that an 'acceptable' level of pollution (if there is such a level) were imposed which would obviate users being fined, would the ICE manufacturers 'suddenly' produce an engine to meet those requirements?
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Re: So, Who is Actually Responsible for ICE Vehicle Pollution?

#11  Postby Hermit » Sep 14, 2018 11:33 am

Alan B wrote:Of course the consumer pays with each ICE 'improvement', but only once when they buy the vehicle. Not 'every time' they go shopping or deliver goods.
Now, if the regulations were so tight such that an 'acceptable' level of pollution (if there is such a level) were imposed which would obviate users being fined, would the ICE manufacturers 'suddenly' produce an engine to meet those requirements?

I don't agree that manufacturers of internal combustion engines should get penalised for people who insist on taking their ICE powered vehicles into areas that impose a surcharge on their use.
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Re: So, Who is Actually Responsible for ICE Vehicle Pollution?

#12  Postby Alan B » Sep 14, 2018 11:50 am

Hermit wrote:I don't agree that manufacturers of internal combustion engines should get penalised for people who insist on taking their ICE powered vehicles into areas that impose a surcharge on their use.

Did you not read this above:
My neighbour works for a delivery company which has to make regular trips into the centre of Birmingham, UK. The proposed 'pollution tax' (which will come into force in a couple of years) will cost his company £11,000 per year.

His company does not have a choice.
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Re: So, Who is Actually Responsible for ICE Vehicle Pollution?

#13  Postby Hermit » Sep 14, 2018 12:07 pm

Alan B wrote:
Hermit wrote:I don't agree that manufacturers of internal combustion engines should get penalised for people who insist on taking their ICE powered vehicles into areas that impose a surcharge on their use.

Did you not read this above:
My neighbour works for a delivery company which has to make regular trips into the centre of Birmingham, UK. The proposed 'pollution tax' (which will come into force in a couple of years) will cost his company £11,000 per year.

His company does not have a choice.

Yes, I read it before, and as I mentioned before, his company will charge extra for deliveries in the affected area. The receivers of the deliveries pay the higher delivery charges and add the increased cost to the goods they sell. Consumer pays.

Having been a subcontractor with four to nine ton (nominal payload) trucks for 15+ years, I speak from personal experience. All costs, including parking fines and any other extra charges become part of the calculation. The prime contractor routinely pays them, no questions asked, and simply passes them on until they ultimately finish up being paid by the consumer.
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Re: So, Who is Actually Responsible for ICE Vehicle Pollution?

#14  Postby felltoearth » Sep 14, 2018 2:17 pm

Alan B wrote:
Macdoc wrote:Why should the automotive industry pay? ...it's not like the coal and oil industry at all.

It certainly isn't like the coal industry. In the UK the pollution coal caused was removed by banning Smog producing coal fires.
The government did not keep allowing coal to be burnt and then decided to fine the users for heating their own homes...

The regulations for ICE exhaust gases and particulates have been getting more stringent over the years, and yet with each change the ICE manufacturers somehow produced engines that 'just' managed to meet the latest limits imposed. Amazing!


Well to be fair, there is no use imposing technological restrictions that can’t be met.
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Re: So, Who is Actually Responsible for ICE Vehicle Pollution?

#15  Postby Alan B » Sep 14, 2018 3:14 pm

The thread title asks the question about responsibility - the buyer or the seller.

If I buy something that I find to be faulty, but I am forced by an inescapable situation to use and buy that item because there is no other choice, where does the responsibility for the fault lie, the seller or the buyer?
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Re: So, Who is Actually Responsible for ICE Vehicle Pollution?

#16  Postby Alan B » Sep 14, 2018 3:20 pm

felltoearth wrote:Well to be fair, there is no use imposing technological restrictions that can’t be met.

I agree. But so far, the technological restrictions have been met...

I haven't heard of any ICE manufacturer categorically stating that a pollution restriction to meet present day requirements can't be met (they might have, but I haven't looked very hard :ask: ).

Edit
In the UK, the pollution charge does not apply to petrol vehicle less than 3 years old and Diesel vehicles less than one year old.

It would seem that the ICE manufacturers can, when pushed, meet the latest requirements.
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Re: So, Who is Actually Responsible for ICE Vehicle Pollution?

#17  Postby felltoearth » Sep 14, 2018 5:05 pm

Alan B wrote:
felltoearth wrote:Well to be fair, there is no use imposing technological restrictions that can’t be met.

I agree. But so far, the technological restrictions have been met...

I haven't heard of any ICE manufacturer categorically stating that a pollution restriction to meet present day requirements can't be met (they might have, but I haven't looked very hard :ask: ).

Edit
In the UK, the pollution charge does not apply to petrol vehicle less than 3 years old and Diesel vehicles less than one year old.

It would seem that the ICE manufacturers can, when pushed, meet the latest requirements.


Yes, essentially because technology that has been around a long time like ICE doesn't have revolutionary technological break throughs that will improve it. Most of the improvements are incremental and involve safety approvals etc. for implementation which is why these improvements inch along over time. All that to say, I believe the limits of ICE have shown that as a technology, it has outlived its usefulness for a lot of transportation needs.
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Re: So, Who is Actually Responsible for ICE Vehicle Pollution?

#18  Postby Macdoc » Sep 14, 2018 5:17 pm

In combination with EV in hybrid there is a long tail on ICE ....new models of Hybrids are getting way up there in EV distance

https://insideevs.com/top-6-electric-range-phev/

The BMW i3 gets 156 km on EV while retaining the ICE hybrid.

This is an interesting site to watch the wave come in

https://insideevs.com/august-2018-plug- ... -soar-u-s/
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Re: So, Who is Actually Responsible for ICE Vehicle Pollution?

#19  Postby felltoearth » Sep 14, 2018 6:41 pm

Yes that's great but that's hybrid ICE technology and not exclusively an ICE engine which is what the conversation was about.
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Re: So, Who is Actually Responsible for ICE Vehicle Pollution?

#20  Postby laklak » Sep 14, 2018 7:46 pm

Everybody is responsible. Oil companies, auto manufacturers, consumers, urban planners, basically society in general. We (at least Americans, Canadians, and Australians) live in large countries where pubic transport is not economically viable except in urban corridors. There are enormous swathes of sparsely populated countryside where ICE transport is necessary. Hybrid technology can help address that, but not EV. It's simply not possible, at this juncture, to replace (for example) big diesel rigs with electrics, the tech just isn't there. It's not just battery storage capacity, it's also charging time, and charging infrastructure. I've no doubt that we will eventually get there, but not for a while. In the interim, financially penalizing people who have no reasonable options is counter-productive. Somebody needs to live in the sticks, as long as you city folks want to eat, that is. And yes, we can build vertical hydroponic farms in urban areas, automate distant, large scale farms, redesign our cities, fix the railroads, upgrade the electrical grid, bring solar and wind and geothermal power online, all that great stuff, but it isn't going to happen overnight, and not without an enormous financial and political commitment.
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