Suicide is painless?

Rome Existed · **#41** by **Rome Existed** » Feb 04, 2012 10:16 pm

Paracetamol overdose isn't a good way to die.

Grimstad · **#42** by **Grimstad** » Feb 04, 2012 10:48 pm

james1v wrote:
Grimstad wrote:So all these people that so desperately want her alive, don't want her to stay with them?

No, we have all begged her to come and stay with us since her husband died. She has stayed at both our homes, but doesnt want to. She sometimes stays at her own flat, sometimes at her sons and sometimes at our house. I dont think this nomadic lifestyle has helped much. I think she needs a more settled life.

I apologize for my assumption.

the pigeon · **#43** by **the pigeon** » Feb 04, 2012 11:24 pm

MacIver wrote:
amkerman wrote: Suicide is an act of pure selfishness IMO.

I haven't posted on this website for a very, very long time, and only occasionally come back for a quick lurk; but I feel I have to contribute here.

Certainly, the act of suicide can appear devastingly selfish to those left behind. To the one who has taken the choice to end their own life however, it can seem altruistic. If you're convinced of your own worthlessness, you feel you'd be doing your loved ones a favour by taking yourself out of their lives. Such a thought is almost always incorrect and the result of a delusion, but that's mental illness for you.

logical bob · **#44** by **logical bob** » Feb 05, 2012 1:00 am

I think in nearly all cases the right thing to do is to try to prevent someone's suicide. If they're really, consistently determined to die then they'll do so eventually. Trying to keep them alive increases the chance that the desire to die will pass or lessen. I know a lot of people who have either attempted suicide or been in a situation of risk and the overwhelming majority now say they're glad to be alive. Those people would now say that, looking back, trying to prevent their suicide was a more caring act than standing back and respecting their wishes would have been.

In the case of the OP we're talking about someone who's lost their partner a few weeks ago. It's quite likely that they won't always feel that loss as intensely as they do right now.

Rome Existed · **#45** by **Rome Existed** » Feb 05, 2012 1:54 am

Yeah, most suicide attempts aren't actually attempts at suicide but a cry for help. They've gone to the extreme to make those around them aware of how they're feeling.

Rachel Bronwyn · **#46** by **Rachel Bronwyn** » Feb 05, 2012 2:19 am

the pigeon wrote:
Certainly, the act of suicide can appear devastingly selfish to those left behind. To the one who has taken the choice to end their own life however, it can seem altruistic. If you're convinced of your own worthlessness, you feel you'd be doing your loved ones a favour by taking yourself out of their lives. Such a thought is almost always incorrect and the result of a delusion, but that's mental illness for you.

Exactly.

Now, take into account just how selfish it is to deny someone their right to die. Why is it not considered every bit if not more selfish to demand someone who has no quality of life stick around because you don't want to deal with the loss?

Gallstones · **#47** by **Gallstones** » Feb 05, 2012 7:21 am

Ultimately my life belongs to me. What I choose to do with it is my business.
How is hating me after death going to change anything?

A big life insurance payout tends to assuage all that "resentment".

Fallible · **#48** by **Fallible** » Feb 05, 2012 10:55 am

MacIver wrote:
amkerman wrote: Suicide is an act of pure selfishness IMO.

Sorry, I can't agree unequivocally there. A lot of times when people contemplate suicide they have themselves convinced that they are better off dead because they are just such awful and troublesome people that their families and friends will be far better off without them. They hate themselves, and they hate what their continued depression and associated behaviour does to their loved ones. Suicide in these circumstances is an act of selflessness - misguided a lot of the time, but an attempt to give families and friends their lives back.

Fallible · **#49** by **Fallible** » Feb 05, 2012 10:56 am

the pigeon wrote:
MacIver wrote:
amkerman wrote: Suicide is an act of pure selfishness IMO.

I haven't posted on this website for a very, very long time, and only occasionally come back for a quick lurk; but I feel I have to contribute here.

Certainly, the act of suicide can appear devastingly selfish to those left behind. To the one who has taken the choice to end their own life however, it can seem altruistic. If you're convinced of your own worthlessness, you feel you'd be doing your loved ones a favour by taking yourself out of their lives. Such a thought is almost always incorrect and the result of a delusion, but that's mental illness for you.

Yes,

Grimstad · **#50** by **Grimstad** » Feb 05, 2012 11:17 am

Sure some folks feel worthless but I don't think that's the case here. Emotional pain is no less real than physical pain. You don't marry your children. They grow up and they move on to their own lives. But there is one person that you attach yourself to for the rest of your life. They become a part of you. The face you wake up to every morning and lay beside every night. They become the high point of your day. You can face ANY hardship as long as they are by your side. And when they are gone, a part of you is missing. Even if you manage to fall in love again that hole will always be there. And the longer you have been together the larger that hole will be. When a couple dies in some tragedy what do we always come around to? "Well, at least they went together".
Who is really being selfish here? Sure, we will miss grandma but that in no way compares to how much she misses grandpa.

amkerman · **#51** by **amkerman** » Feb 05, 2012 6:19 pm

Grimstad wrote:Sure some folks feel worthless but I don't think that's the case here. Emotional pain is no less real than physical pain. You don't marry your children. They grow up and they move on to their own lives. But there is one person that you attach yourself to for the rest of your life. They become a part of you. The face you wake up to every morning and lay beside every night. They become the high point of your day. You can face ANY hardship as long as they are by your side. And when they are gone, a part of you is missing. Even if you manage to fall in love again that hole will always be there. And the longer you have been together the larger that hole will be. When a couple dies in some tragedy what do we always come around to? "Well, at least they went together".
Who is really being selfish here? Sure, we will miss grandma but that in no way compares to how much she misses grandpa.

(my emphasis)
The parts I bolded are just interesting to think about, regardless of whether or not one thinks they are true.

Acts in and of themselves aren't selfish, I don't think, unless they ARE selfishness actually. As in the very concept of selfishness embraces the act itself, in the objective sense. I feel that the act of taking a life, whether it be of another or yourself (always, forever, no matter what), is such an action. The rest is just how people subjectively choose to think about the act

You want to claim that the act of preventing the woman from killing herself is selfish but I think what you are really speaking to are the motives behind the act, which may or may not be selfish, and from what I have read about this situation they clearly aren't, at least not wholly (but I'm sure there are some sentiments for wanting to keep their mother alive which are selfish, i.e. "I want to keep my mother-in-law alive because if she kills herself I will feel bad".

What I am claiming is that the very act of taking one's own life is the actual essence of selfishness. However noble or subjectively justifiable suicide may seem or feel, which I can wholly understand, suicide IS still selfishness. No amount of rationalization can ever change the FACT. Although she is probably in a great deal of pain, and feels she has nothing left to live for, she is ultimately only thinking of no one but herself in trying to kill herself. If she thought about others feelings, and held them above her own personal feelings, even if she thought about her late husbands perceived feelings, she wouldn't try to kill herself.

I feel for the woman, I really do; I understand pain and suffering. The act itself is WRONG.

Whatever you guys do James to help your mother-in-law is RIGHT. And it is all you can do, and it is enough. And I, for one, applaud you for not only for wanting to do what is right, but also for having the courage to question what "right" is.

I hope your mother-in-law finds peace, and I hope you and your family do as well.
:cheers:

Sonoran Lion · **#52** by **Sonoran Lion** » Feb 05, 2012 6:24 pm

Sorry to hear about the situation you and your family are in, James. I hope things will improve for everyone affected.

Fallible · **#53** by **Fallible** » Feb 05, 2012 9:27 pm

amkerman wrote:
Grimstad wrote:Sure some folks feel worthless but I don't think that's the case here. Emotional pain is no less real than physical pain. You don't marry your children. They grow up and they move on to their own lives. But there is one person that you attach yourself to for the rest of your life. They become a part of you. The face you wake up to every morning and lay beside every night. They become the high point of your day. You can face ANY hardship as long as they are by your side. And when they are gone, a part of you is missing. Even if you manage to fall in love again that hole will always be there. And the longer you have been together the larger that hole will be. When a couple dies in some tragedy what do we always come around to? "Well, at least they went together".
Who is really being selfish here? Sure, we will miss grandma but that in no way compares to how much she misses grandpa.

(my emphasis)
The parts I bolded are just interesting to think about, regardless of whether or not one thinks they are true.

Acts in and of themselves aren't selfish, I don't think, unless they ARE selfishness actually. As in the very concept of selfishness embraces the act itself, in the objective sense. I feel that the act of taking a life, whether it be of another or yourself (always, forever, no matter what), is such an action. The rest is just how people subjectively choose to think about the act

You want to claim that the act of preventing the woman from killing herself is selfish but I think what you are really speaking to are the motives behind the act, which may or may not be selfish, and from what I have read about this situation they clearly aren't, at least not wholly (but I'm sure there are some sentiments for wanting to keep their mother alive which are selfish, i.e. "I want to keep my mother-in-law alive because if she kills herself I will feel bad".

What I am claiming is that the very act of taking one's own life is the actual essence of selfishness. However noble or subjectively justifiable suicide may seem or feel, which I can wholly understand, suicide IS still selfishness. No amount of rationalization can ever change the FACT. Although she is probably in a great deal of pain, and feels she has nothing left to live for, she is ultimately only thinking of no one but herself in trying to kill herself. If she thought about others feelings, and held them above her own personal feelings, even if she thought about her late husbands perceived feelings, she wouldn't try to kill herself.

I feel for the woman, I really do; I understand pain and suffering. The act itself is WRONG.

Whatever you guys do James to help your mother-in-law is RIGHT. And it is all you can do, and it is enough. And I, for one, applaud you for not only for wanting to do what is right, but also for having the courage to question what "right" is.

I hope your mother-in-law finds peace, and I hope you and your family do as well.

Sorry, but this doesn't really show much understanding at all of issues around suicide. Just some unsupported opining with a few words typed in capitals for effect. Who judges what is right or wrong? What makes your opinion fact? You completely disregarded at least one way in which it is not selfish, as spelled out by a number of posters here - depressed people often feel as though they have become an unsupportable burden upon their loved ones, and wish to spare them the pain of dealing with them any longer. That may be misguided, and the loved ones would probably much rather the person stay with them, but it's certainly not selfishness.

MoonLit · **#54** by **MoonLit** » Feb 05, 2012 9:42 pm

Fallible wrote:

Sorry, but this doesn't really show much understanding at all of issues around suicide. Just some unsupported opining with a few words typed in capitals for effect. Who judges what is right or wrong? What makes your opinion fact? You completely disregarded at least one way in which it is not selfish, as spelled out by a number of posters here - depressed people often feel as though they have become an unsupportable burden upon their loved ones, and wish to spare them the pain of dealing with them any longer. That may be misguided, and the loved ones would probably much rather the person stay with them, but it's certainly not selfishness.

Agreed. I'd say it's selfish to expect or even try to get someone to "live for another". As I said before, that would be entail a shitty existence. Does it help, living because of friends of family? I'm sure; but I hope those are not the only reasons for someone to live.

I'm alive because I love being alive. Not because of my friends, or my family. But because I want to be. I don't live for the sake of others; and I'll be damned if I ever try to make someone else do the same for me (sadly, I already got one person who's currently stuck in that situation and it breaks my heart).

MacIver · **#55** by **MacIver** » Feb 05, 2012 11:52 pm

the pigeon wrote:
MacIver wrote:
amkerman wrote: Suicide is an act of pure selfishness IMO.

I haven't posted on this website for a very, very long time, and only occasionally come back for a quick lurk; but I feel I have to contribute here.

Certainly, the act of suicide can appear devastingly selfish to those left behind. To the one who has taken the choice to end their own life however, it can seem altruistic. If you're convinced of your own worthlessness, you feel you'd be doing your loved ones a favour by taking yourself out of their lives. Such a thought is almost always incorrect and the result of a delusion, but that's mental illness for you.

Fallible wrote:
MacIver wrote:
amkerman wrote: Suicide is an act of pure selfishness IMO.

Sorry, I can't agree unequivocally there. A lot of times when people contemplate suicide they have themselves convinced that they are better off dead because they are just such awful and troublesome people that their families and friends will be far better off without them. They hate themselves, and they hate what their continued depression and associated behaviour does to their loved ones. Suicide in these circumstances is an act of selflessness - misguided a lot of the time, but an attempt to give families and friends their lives back.

I understand and accept both of your arguments. I know exactly what that worthless feeling feels like.

My own opinion of this comes from personal experience. I have been lucky enough not to be close to anyone who took their own life. However, as someone who has battled depression in my darkest times I have seriously considered ending it all. I was in a particularly dark place around the age of 20-21, I thought of my life as a failure and that seemed like a logical day to end it. In fact, I had made plans to kill myself on my twenty-first birthday. I wrote a suicide note (actually I wrote several, each addressed to different people), I got the spare dog's lead with which I intended to hang myself (because using the actual dog's lead would of been a step too far in my opinion) with and tied it to the rafters in my garden shed, and knowing I'd need to get drunk to do it I started drinking directly from a bottle of vodka. I'm not entirely sure if it was cowardice or the thought of what my death would do to my parents that made me reconsider. But I do know that the later was an overriding feeling. Thankfully I've never been in that place again, and every year I live is a year I feel better about myself and my place in this world.

Was my attempt at an attempt a plea for help or attention? Well, seeing as I've never told anyone in RL this except for my shrink and my doctor I don't it could be said to be so. I didn't want to die. But I honestly and truly believed I did not deserve to live. This is why I chose to hang myself, because if it was good enough for criminal scum it was good enough for me.

So no, I do not think that all people who kill themselves are being inherently selfish from their perspective. But I do believe that suicide is still an inherently selfish act for anyone looking in from the outside.

Lance · **#56** by **Lance** » Feb 06, 2012 2:09 am

Not necessarily selfish.

Let me tell you my experience. I knew a guy who suicided, and left me with serious feelings on inappropriate guilt which I had to come to terms with.

When I bought my first home, I had a difficult mortgage. I took in a guy as flatmate to assist in paying the mortgage. He was definitely depressed. He used to come home from work, and pour his woes all over me. I tried to be a good, empathetic listener, and I think it helped.

However, in due course, I went off on holiday. I was away several weeks. When I returned, I found the police had broken into my home to learn about my flatmate. He had jumped off Auckland Harbour Bridge, less than 48 hours after I had left. The police came and interviewed me. The weird thing is that absolutely no-one but me even knew he was depressed. Certainly not his family. I had to face the fact that my going on holiday was the trigger that led to his suicide, since he then had no-one at all to discuss his feelings with. It took me a while to come to terms with that.

That was a long time ago now, and I know I was not at fault. However, it has left me with an interest in the state of mind of would-be suicides. I do not think it is a selfish deed. My flatmate was in pain - emotional pain - and would not have thought his death would cause anyone else to suffer. After all, part of his depression was thinking no-one cared about him.

Gallstones · **#57** by **Gallstones** » Feb 06, 2012 7:09 am

The kind of torment that leads a person to believe that death is preferable to life is the kind of torment a person bears alone, because one learns early--from the reaction of others--to keep such thoughts to oneself.

Talking about it is early stages.

Suicide is never painless.

How can the end of hope be painless?

james1v · **#58** by **james1v** » Feb 06, 2012 4:49 pm

Well, after having a long chat with her doctor and the family on Friday, she agreed to go into a psychiatric ward in the local hospital to see if the people could help her. She did have a couple of panic attacks prior to going in at 10am on Saturday. Fear of the unknown i suppose, she was worried they may keep her in against her will.

On Sunday afternoon, everyone went up to see her, she seemed a different person. Happier and discussing her own future.

Around 6pm, she called us and asked if we could come and collect her, said the place wasn't for her and she wasn't like the other people being treated in there. When the missus and her brother arrived, the doctor asked if he could have a chat with all three of them together. He wanted her to stay another night, so that the team dealing with her could advise her about medication etc.

After having a good chat, she agreed to stay another night. She still seemed happier though. She said seeing those other patients, and how they are, had made her realise how lucky she is.

Her son picked her up from the hospital this afternoon (Monday), shes agreed to stay at his house for a while. He says she seems a lot better. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

Fallible · **#59** by **Fallible** » Feb 07, 2012 11:35 am

Good luck, james - seems there is definitely some hope there. :cheers:

trubble76 · **#60** by **trubble76** » Feb 07, 2012 12:59 pm

Suicide is not painless at all. My grandfather took an OD at bedtime so that I found him in the morning, but he didn't take enough pills to finish the job effectively.
He died a painful, lingering death, of which I was by his side for almost all of it. I only had minimal help from the family, he was not a popular chap.

On reflection, I don't really disagree with his decision to top himself, or at least I try to remain nonjudgemental. He was suffering from the after-effects of prostrate cancer and also suffering bouts of paranoia. His conviction that he was doomed to a painful, lingering death cuased him to inflict himself with his greatest fear.
And, just for fun, the paranoia meant that he thought I was involved in an elaborate plot to rob him, so he disinherited me and left a large amount to a cousin of mine that wouldn't even go to the hospital to visit.

The lesson that I take away from this is; if you are going to kill yourself, do it well. I fully expect to be the cause of my own death, I just don't know how long until then.

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