Suicide is painless?

james1v · #1 by **james1v** » Feb 03, 2012 3:20 am

The father in law died just before xmass. I was working away from home when he died. Now, Ive been with the missus for thirty odd years. One of my overwhelming memories of my mother in law was, her statement that she would commit suicide, if he went before she did. (At the time, i thought that was selfishness in the extreme, it was as though she didn't care about her children). Shes repeated this statement regularly, over the years, which always made me uncomfortable.

Well, he went. It was the day before i was due home. Sad news indeed. When the missus told me he'd gone, i told her to keep an eye on her mother, as more than once, she had stated the above. She told me i was talking bollocks!

Last Monday, she (the mother in law) took 64 paracetamols, 30 odd of her husbands blood thinning pills, a pack of aspirins and various other medication she had hoarded. This was at 10.30 am. The missus panicked, when she couldn't contact her mother, around 2.30. She phoned her brother and asked him to nip into his mothers flat when he had finished work. He did, at 5 o'clock. He found here collapsed, with all the empty pill containers around her.

Now, the news devastated both my children, along with all her other grand kids. The doctors, told us to expect the worst. As it happens, she survived, thanks to the antidotes, and the vomiting injection the paramedics gave her when they turned up.

Unfortunately, shes now adamant, her son who called the ambulance did wrong! She said he should have respected her wishes. Which were written on the note, at the side of the bed.

Being upset, among the family, has now been replaced by anger. They cannot believe she thought so little of them, and so much of their grand father. They all love her to bits.

I have to admit, i'm in favour of assisted dieing, but against her decision. She had everything to live for, children, grand kids, great grand kids, who loved her.

Why would anyone choose the dead, over your living decendants?

Another twist is this, her daughter (my sister in law) died of cancer a few years ago, if it was me who had lost a child, i could understand someone committing suicide. But a partner? Why not when the child died? :scratch:

Ihavenofingerprints · #2 by **Ihavenofingerprints** » Feb 03, 2012 3:28 am

Imagine if he just left her there and didn't call the hospital - just because a note said so (and could have been put there by a murderer or anyone)? Everyone would be hating on that guy right now.

It is selfish of the lady to ignore this. Why should he have to live the rest of his life potentially being hated by the rest of the family? If someone with so much family left wants to take this action, I think it's only fair to the family that they make everyone aware before they go ahead.

(obviously we don't have all the details, sorry if i make any wrong assumptions)

james1v · #3 by **james1v** » Feb 03, 2012 3:44 am

Ihavenofingerprints wrote:Imagine if he just left her there and didn't call the hospital - just because a note said so (and could have been put there by a murderer or anyone)? Everyone would be hating on that guy right now.

It is selfish of the lady to ignore this. Why should he have to live the rest of his life potentially being hated by the rest of the family? If someone with so much family left wants to take this action, I think it's only fair to the family that they make everyone aware before they go ahead.

(obviously we don't have all the details, sorry if i make any wrong assumptions)

I agree, and i'm sure her son who found her does. The thing is, shes being so adamant about how everyone should have left her to die, shes now been moved from an ordinary ward in the hospital, to a psychiatric ward. Because she appears to be willing to do it again. I can see her being sectioned. Which no one wants.

I'm assuming shes suffering from temporary depression. I hope it is temporary. We have all begged her to live with us (her son and me and the missus) since her partner died. But she rebounded between us and her sons house, then sometimes went back to her flat.

LIFE · #4 by **LIFE** » Feb 03, 2012 3:49 am

Did she ever say why she would want to kill herself?
Does she feel her life is worthless without him? Or knows she will never be able to deal with the amount of emotional pain?

james1v wrote:Why would anyone choose the dead, over your living decendants?

If I would have so much persistent emotional pain that I couldn't deal with it, why would I just want to stay alive for others to be happy? Not saying that I think like this...just trying to imagine what she might be thinking.

Hard to say, really

james1v · #5 by **james1v** » Feb 03, 2012 4:00 am

LIFE wrote:Did she ever say why she would want to kill herself?
Does she feel her life is worthless without him? Or knows she will never be able to deal with the amount of emotional pain?

james1v wrote:Why would anyone choose the dead, over your living decendants?

If I would have so much persistent emotional pain that I couldn't deal with it, why would I just want to stay alive for others to be happy? Not saying that I think like this...just trying to imagine what she might be thinking.

Hard to say, really

She did say why. She said she would feel useless without him. Shes been with him since she was sixteen. To be honest, hes treated her like a slave. If he needed some fags, he'd ask here to get him some from the local garage, even if it was pissing it down. Shes old school, she did everything for him. She thought she was lucky to have him.

My missus didnt inherit her genes, apparently. Just her fathers! (Is that possible? Outside of cloning?) :scratch:

MoonLit · #6 by **MoonLit** » Feb 03, 2012 4:12 am

I have to admit, i'm in favour of assisted dieing, but against her decision. She had everything to live for, children, grand kids, great grand kids, who loved her.

That's not really being fair to her. It's up to her to decide if there's something to live for or not, and no one else. I understand the anger directed at her, but really, saying something similar to "But you have so much to live for" is basically emotional blackmail.
No one should stay alive just to make others happy; what a miserable existence that would be!

james1v · #7 by **james1v** » Feb 03, 2012 4:29 am

MoonLit wrote:
I have to admit, i'm in favour of assisted dieing, but against her decision. She had everything to live for, children, grand kids, great grand kids, who loved her.

That's not really being fair to her. It's up to her to decide if there's something to live for or not, and no one else. I understand the anger directed at her, but really, saying something similar to "But you have so much to live for" is basically emotional blackmail.
No one should stay alive just to make others happy; what a miserable existence that would be!

This why i'm torn. I agree with you. But i know her. I think shes only ever had one direction in her life, that was him. Which is now creating so much disappointment with her children, grand children and friends.

Its as though everyone else in the world, never meant anything to her. I cannot understand how that can be. I can only put it down to temporary depression. Or, her wanting to back up her promise to him (which she made on a regular basis, that if he died, she would kill herself).

Should we keep these kind of promises to the dead? :scratch:

Grimstad · #8 by **Grimstad** » Feb 03, 2012 6:00 am

I'm with grandma on this one. I don't see it as a promise to the dead but a promise to herself. It's her life and obviously she has lived a full one. But without her mate it's just not worth living. I think it's a bit selfish to expect her to stick around just to amuse the grandchildren. What does she have to look forward to now? Constant suicide watch? Possible institutionalization? I don't think so. She made a choice, one which was hers to make and now somebody has taken that away from her.

Lance · #9 by **Lance** » Feb 03, 2012 6:44 am

I agree with Grimstad. It is her choice to make. Sounds like her dependents are no longer dependent, so they cannot hold onto her, except through selfishness.

None of us can look inside the mind of another with any real accuracy. If her wish is to die, after her partner has died, we can all make judgements about her decision, but it is her decision.

chairman bill · **#10** by **chairman bill** » Feb 03, 2012 8:52 am

There is an assumption that suicide is an irrational act, committed when 'the balance of the mind is disturbed'. In most cases that's probably true, or more to the point, there's some truth in it. But it is a very paternalistic, and disempowering point-of-view. Sometimes suicide makes perfect sense, at the time. Yes, different circumstances might bring a different perspective on living & dying, and so suicide goes off the agenda. And I suppose part of the rationale is that because suicide is a one-way journey, the person who dies misses out on the opportunity to experience different circumstances, and thus different thoughts & decisions. But I think those wanting to die know that.

My wife & I've been together for 30 years. If she died tomorrow I'd be devestated, but would have to soldier on for the sake of my kids. But in 20 or 30 years time, I'd simply book a double plot. And that's neither selfish nor irrational, and the balance of my mind is just fine thanks.

mattwilson · **#11** by **mattwilson** » Feb 03, 2012 9:39 am

It's situations like this that made me ask a few months ago whether someone can make a rational decision to end their life
http://www.rationalskepticism.org/socia ... 20decision

I agree with her right to do it, but I do think she went about it in totally the wrong way

Doubtdispelled · **#12** by **Doubtdispelled** » Feb 03, 2012 10:17 am

james1v wrote:They cannot believe she thought so little of them

This is what would prevent me from ever acting upon any thoughts of ending my own life. I would never be able to reconcile causing such pain to a number of others over preventing my own. But that's just my personal opinion, and I would never say that someone should not have the right to end their own life if that's what they really want.

I would say to such a person, however, that they should take the opportunity to try to work out what was causing them to feel that way, and perhaps attempt to repair or remove whatever was generating such anguish. I know in this case she cannot bring her husband back, but grief is not permanent. Death, unfortunately, is.

Horwood Beer-Master · **#13** by **Horwood Beer-Master** » Feb 03, 2012 11:03 am

I find it hard to convict anyone who commits/attempts suicide of selfishness. Everyone has to judge for themselves the worth of their own life, and whether they can face carrying on with it. If anything it seems somewhat selfish to demand of people that they continue an existence they've come to despair of/despise, purely for the sake of others.

The best we can do is to try to prevent people who've falsely lost hope from doing something rashly stupid. But to ask people to live-on for months, years or even decades when hope seems to have deserted them forever - well that sounds like torturing them to me, just as it would if you asked someone who was physically in chronic, crippling, incurable pain to carry-on living just so as to not upset their loved ones (and surely none of us would ask that of anybody?)

Paul G · **#14** by **Paul G** » Feb 03, 2012 11:12 am

I think I'm siding with James and the grandchildren here. It seems a bit of a kick in the teeth to those she would be leaving behind, even though I can understand why she wouldn't want to live without her husband.

Man, tough situation. I'm really sorry James.

Paul G · **#15** by **Paul G** » Feb 03, 2012 11:14 am

Horwood Beer-Master wrote:

The best we can do is to try to prevent people who've falsely lost hope from doing something rashly stupid. But to ask people to live-on for months, years or even decades when hope seems to have deserted them forever - well that sounds like torturing them to me, just as it would if you asked someone who was physically in chronic, crippling, incurable pain to carry-on living just so as to not upset their loved ones (and surely none of us would ask that of anybody?)

There's a slight difference with your two situations, it's very hard to determine whether the depression is incurable.

Fallible · **#16** by **Fallible** » Feb 03, 2012 11:16 am

james1v wrote:The father in law died just before xmass. I was working away from home when he died. Now, Ive been with the missus for thirty odd years. One of my overwhelming memories of my mother in law was, her statement that she would commit suicide, if he went before she did. (At the time, i thought that was selfishness in the extreme, it was as though she didn't care about her children). Shes repeated this statement regularly, over the years, which always made me uncomfortable.

Well, he went. It was the day before i was due home. Sad news indeed. When the missus told me he'd gone, i told her to keep an eye on her mother, as more than once, she had stated the above. She told me i was talking bollocks!

Last Monday, she (the mother in law) took 64 paracetamols, 30 odd of her husbands blood thinning pills, a pack of aspirins and various other medication she had hoarded. This was at 10.30 am. The missus panicked, when she couldn't contact her mother, around 2.30. She phoned her brother and asked him to nip into his mothers flat when he had finished work. He did, at 5 o'clock. He found here collapsed, with all the empty pill containers around her.

Now, the news devastated both my children, along with all her other grand kids. The doctors, told us to expect the worst. As it happens, she survived, thanks to the antidotes, and the vomiting injection the paramedics gave her when they turned up.

Unfortunately, shes now adamant, her son who called the ambulance did wrong! She said he should have respected her wishes. Which were written on the note, at the side of the bed.

Being upset, among the family, has now been replaced by anger. They cannot believe she thought so little of them, and so much of their grand father. They all love her to bits.

I have to admit, i'm in favour of assisted dieing, but against her decision. She had everything to live for, children, grand kids, great grand kids, who loved her.

Why would anyone choose the dead, over your living decendants?

Another twist is this, her daughter (my sister in law) died of cancer a few years ago, if it was me who had lost a child, i could understand someone committing suicide. But a partner? Why not when the child died?

My initial thought is that her loss is still pretty new. Her partner only died a couple of months ago, and your m-i-l is in the depths of her grief. As you said she did everything for him, and so it sounds like her whole purpose in life was to take care of him. She probably feels therefore, that now he has gone, her whole reason for being here has gone too. If you look at it like that, it can seem like quite a rational response to try to end her own life. a) she is grieving and perhaps not thinking very clearly, and b) her whole reason for living has suddenly vanished. She's bereft, in shock and staring at a future devoid of the role she had carved out for herself.

I guess time will tell how this pans out for her. As she goes through the grieving process and the raw loss is no longer so close, perhaps she will change her feelings about dying. Also, as she finds herself without her old role in life, she may gradually start to look for and perhaps discover a new one. Of course she might not do either of these things, and I suppose that at that stage, when a lot of time has passed and she is still feeling this way, it's really only fair to accept her decision. That doesn't mean that no one should help her if they come across her unconscious on the floor, just that it might be necessary to accept that she really does feel that there is nothing in her life that makes staying in it worthwhile. That's probably going to be hard - I know that if it was my mother, I'd feel extremely hurt that she did not consider me or my daughter important enough. If that's really how she feels though, after an extensive time period (you know, like a couple of years), there is really nothing to do other than either accept it or continue feeling bad about it - which will do nothing to change her mind and will simply mean remaining in a state of anger/hurt/helplessness.

I hope that makes sense, I'm just kind of typing things as I think of them. :think:

So sorry you're in this situation, james.

Globe · **#17** by **Globe** » Feb 03, 2012 11:17 am

james1v wrote:
MoonLit wrote:
I have to admit, i'm in favour of assisted dieing, but against her decision. She had everything to live for, children, grand kids, great grand kids, who loved her.

That's not really being fair to her. It's up to her to decide if there's something to live for or not, and no one else. I understand the anger directed at her, but really, saying something similar to "But you have so much to live for" is basically emotional blackmail.
No one should stay alive just to make others happy; what a miserable existence that would be!

This why i'm torn. I agree with you. But i know her. I think shes only ever had one direction in her life, that was him. Which is now creating so much disappointment with her children, grand children and friends.

Its as though everyone else in the world, never meant anything to her. I cannot understand how that can be. I can only put it down to temporary depression. Or, her wanting to back up her promise to him (which she made on a regular basis, that if he died, she would kill herself).

Should we keep these kind of promises to the dead?

The least she could have done, if it was her FINAL AND IRREVOCABLE decision, was to clear it up with the rest of her family.

As it stands now it seem more as a huge "Look at me"-stunt.
I am for assisted suicide if done properly and in agreement with those closest, but just sending out random statements and then one day take a bunch of pills is rather inconsiderate.

Yep.... I am unspeakably callous here, but matter of fact is that most unsuccessful suicides is a cry for attention.
Assisted suicide on the other hand is something that has been discussed and accepted, at least partially, by those who will be affected by it.

Horwood Beer-Master · **#18** by **Horwood Beer-Master** » Feb 03, 2012 11:45 am

Paul G wrote:
Horwood Beer-Master wrote:

The best we can do is to try to prevent people who've falsely lost hope from doing something rashly stupid. But to ask people to live-on for months, years or even decades when hope seems to have deserted them forever - well that sounds like torturing them to me, just as it would if you asked someone who was physically in chronic, crippling, incurable pain to carry-on living just so as to not upset their loved ones (and surely none of us would ask that of anybody?)

There's a slight difference with your two situations, it's very hard to determine whether the depression is incurable.

True, we somewhat have to muddle through and make informed-yet-subjective judgement on that one. But still the final judgement must lie with the individual, unless it can be clinically determined that they are not a fit judge (and for these purposes, the depression itself can at best only be used to disqualify their judgement for a limited period of time - or else you're stuck in a catch-22 situation).

logical bob · **#19** by **logical bob** » Feb 03, 2012 12:03 pm

James, it's a horrible situation in so many ways. For what little it's worth I feel for all of you.

Nobody who wants to die should use paracetamol. It's a horrible, horrible way to go. And it's very harsh to blame the son who saved her. Ending your life is your decision, don't pass it on to someone else. Callous though this might sound, if you want to be sure then do something from which you can't be rescued and spare someone else that terrible choice, if not the inevitable pain that follows suicide.

Lance · **#20** by **Lance** » Feb 03, 2012 9:18 pm

I know a woman who is now almost 80 years old. She lost her husband more than 20 years ago. Due to her religious convictions, she would not suicide. But she told me she wanted to, and she has wanted to ever since. She has lived a life she did not want to live for all those years, and she regrets daily that she cannot suicide. Her deepest wish was to 'join' her husband. When you love someone that deeply, it is difficult for others to understand.