The Real History of the Freemasons?

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Re: The Real History of the Freemasons?

#21  Postby galexander » May 22, 2020 11:15 am

The_Metatron wrote:It’s my experience that when someone uses the adjective “real” in their title, their material usually describes things that are not reality. Actual reality requires no label declaring it to be so.


I don't agree. The only reason I used "real" in my title was to distinguish between what I was saying and the huge amount of pseudo-history out there regarding the Freemasons, much of which comes from contemporary Freemasonry itself.

If Freemasonry originated from medieval trade guilds, why do they have to swear oaths of secrecy? In the medieval era secret oaths would have been completely illegal.
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Re: The Real History of the Freemasons?

#22  Postby Fallible » May 22, 2020 12:30 pm

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Re: The Real History of the Freemasons?

#23  Postby GrahamH » May 22, 2020 12:58 pm

galexander wrote:In the medieval era secret oaths would have been completely illegal.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Why do you think that?
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Re: The Real History of the Freemasons?

#24  Postby BlackBart » May 22, 2020 1:03 pm

GrahamH wrote:
galexander wrote:In the medieval era secret oaths would have been completely illegal.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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Re: The Real History of the Freemasons?

#25  Postby Svartalf » May 22, 2020 2:06 pm

galexander wrote:
The_Metatron wrote:

If Freemasonry originated from medieval trade guilds, why do they have to swear oaths of secrecy? In the medieval era secret oaths would have been completely illegal.

To begin with, a secret oath (an oath made secretly) is not an oath of secrecy, secondly, what's your source about either kind being "illegal" in medieval times?

I do guess that an oath of secrecy would not have been upheld in front of a court, but then again, oath breakers would have answered to their 'brothers', not in front of a court.
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Re: The Real History of the Freemasons?

#26  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 22, 2020 3:12 pm

galexander wrote:
The_Metatron wrote:It’s my experience that when someone uses the adjective “real” in their title, their material usually describes things that are not reality. Actual reality requires no label declaring it to be so.


I don't agree. The only reason I used "real" in my title was to distinguish between what I was saying and the huge amount of pseudo-history out there regarding the Freemasons, much of which comes from contemporary Freemasonry itself.

If Freemasonry originated from medieval trade guilds, why do they have to swear oaths of secrecy? In the medieval era secret oaths would have been completely illegal.

Not only is that last sentence false. It's a non-sequitur to conclude from it that no-one in medieval times swore secret oaths (i.e. everyone in medieval times followed the law at all times.) :coffee:
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Re: The Real History of the Freemasons?

#27  Postby galexander » May 22, 2020 3:25 pm

Svartalf wrote:To begin with, a secret oath (an oath made secretly) is not an oath of secrecy, secondly, what's your source about either kind being "illegal" in medieval times?

I do guess that an oath of secrecy would not have been upheld in front of a court, but then again, oath breakers would have answered to their 'brothers', not in front of a court.


The Tolpuddle Martyrs were convicted of swearing a secret oath in 1834. Some centuries after the medieval era.

The only oath that could be legally sworn in the medieval era would have been an oath of absolute loyalty to the King. But that is probably what the Freemasons are swearing anyway.
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Re: The Real History of the Freemasons?

#28  Postby Svartalf » May 22, 2020 5:59 pm

You're aware that the so called tolpuddle martyrs were arrested on a technicality, and convicted under an act passed in 1797, following serious mutinies and aimed at repressing revoluyionary associations so as to avoid the atrocities like those that had happened in France... not only did it happen long after middle ages but the very law invoked was a very recent one.

and the second part is false and nonsensical.
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Re: The Real History of the Freemasons?

#29  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 22, 2020 6:02 pm

galexander wrote:
Svartalf wrote:To begin with, a secret oath (an oath made secretly) is not an oath of secrecy, secondly, what's your source about either kind being "illegal" in medieval times?

I do guess that an oath of secrecy would not have been upheld in front of a court, but then again, oath breakers would have answered to their 'brothers', not in front of a court.


The Tolpuddle Martyrs were convicted of swearing a secret oath in 1834. Some centuries after the medieval era.

Which at best tells you something about laws about secret oaths in that region, at time.
Not about the legality of secret oaths in the whole of Europe in 1834.
And certainly not the legality of secret oaths in Medieval Europe.

galexander wrote:
The only oath that could be legally sworn in the medieval era would have been an oath of absolute loyalty to the King. But that is probably what the Freemasons are swearing anyway.

Utter nonsense. Where do you get such bullshit?
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: The Real History of the Freemasons?

#30  Postby Fallible » May 22, 2020 8:39 pm

This thread is ridiculous...
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Re: The Real History of the Freemasons?

#31  Postby Ironclad » May 22, 2020 10:19 pm

LOL ain’t they all though
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Re: The Real History of the Freemasons?

#32  Postby galexander » May 23, 2020 10:29 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
galexander wrote:
The only oath that could be legally sworn in the medieval era would have been an oath of absolute loyalty to the King. But that is probably what the Freemasons are swearing anyway.


Utter nonsense. Where do you get such bulls**t?


Presumably this forum believes the Freemasons like swearing oaths for the fun of it and that it's part a long standing tradition.........

.........and that this isn't BS at all!

And why do I get the strong impression there are trolls on this thread? Hardly any of the posters on this thread are impartial in any way.
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Re: The Real History of the Freemasons?

#33  Postby Svartalf » May 23, 2020 10:39 am

interesting, do you have a mirror next to your computer?
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Re: The Real History of the Freemasons?

#34  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 23, 2020 11:21 am

galexander wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
galexander wrote:
The only oath that could be legally sworn in the medieval era would have been an oath of absolute loyalty to the King. But that is probably what the Freemasons are swearing anyway.


Utter nonsense. Where do you get such bulls**t?


Presumably this forum believes the Freemasons like swearing oaths for the fun of it and that it's part a long standing tradition.........

.........and that this isn't BS at all!

Is it that you struggle with basic reading comprehension, or are ludicrous straw-man arguments your go-to response when you're called out on your bullshit?
No-one even hinted, much less argued the bit I bolded.
I am pointing out that your counterfactual blind assertion that oath swearing outside of to the king, was illegal.

galexander wrote:And why do I get the strong impression there are trolls on this thread? Hardly any of the posters on this thread are impartial in any way.

:roll: Says the person who consistently fails to engage with what people actually post, instead opting to lob ever more deranged straw-man accusations around... :coffee:

*Edit, why did you censor my use of the world bullshit? :roll:
Last edited by Thomas Eshuis on May 23, 2020 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Real History of the Freemasons?

#35  Postby galexander » May 23, 2020 1:58 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:Is it that you struggle with basic reading comprehension, or are ludicrous straw-man arguments your go-to response when you're called out on your bullshit?
No-one even hinted, much less argued the bit I bolded.
I am pointing out that your counterfactual blind assertion that oath swearing outside of to the king, was illegal.

galexander wrote:And why do I get the strong impression there are trolls on this thread? Hardly any of the posters on this thread are impartial in any way.

:roll: Says the person who consistently fails to engage with what people actually post, instead opting to lob ever more deranged straw-man accusations around... :coffee:


Can you convince me that you are not a professional poster with some 30,742 posts to date?

It's not just yourself either, there are other posters on this thread with some 20,000+ and 50,000+ posts to date. I can't see how it's possible for just one person to post so many comments on a single forum.

How many posts do you make a day typically?
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Re: The Real History of the Freemasons?

#36  Postby Fallible » May 23, 2020 1:59 pm

galexander wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
galexander wrote:
The only oath that could be legally sworn in the medieval era would have been an oath of absolute loyalty to the King. But that is probably what the Freemasons are swearing anyway.


Utter nonsense. Where do you get such bulls**t?


Presumably this forum believes the Freemasons like swearing oaths for the fun of it and that it's part a long standing tradition.........

.........and that this isn't BS at all!

And why do I get the strong impression there are trolls on this thread? Hardly any of the posters on this thread are impartial in any way.


Why are you censoring other people’s posts? Thomas quite clearly meant to say BULLSHIT. Don’t mess around with other people’s posts. Your thread is ludicrous. Your objections are puerile. Your expressed point of view makes no sense, and you are now resorting to making things up and tone policing, presumably because you can’t address what’s put to you. Why did you even expect anyone to be impartial? You sound like you’re trolling yourself.
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Re: The Real History of the Freemasons?

#37  Postby Fallible » May 23, 2020 2:01 pm

galexander wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:Is it that you struggle with basic reading comprehension, or are ludicrous straw-man arguments your go-to response when you're called out on your bullshit?
No-one even hinted, much less argued the bit I bolded.
I am pointing out that your counterfactual blind assertion that oath swearing outside of to the king, was illegal.

galexander wrote:And why do I get the strong impression there are trolls on this thread? Hardly any of the posters on this thread are impartial in any way.

:roll: Says the person who consistently fails to engage with what people actually post, instead opting to lob ever more deranged straw-man accusations around... :coffee:


Can you convince me that you are not a professional poster with some 30,742 posts to date?

It's not just yourself either, there are other posters on this thread with some 20,000+ and 50,000+ posts to date. I can't see how it's possible for just one person to post so many comments on a single forum.

How many posts do you make a day typically?



Why are you focusing on the individual, and doing so off-topic? Are you trolling? This forum is over 10 years old. No one has to convince you of anything. Stop being silly.
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Re: The Real History of the Freemasons?

#38  Postby felltoearth » May 23, 2020 2:01 pm

galexander wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:Is it that you struggle with basic reading comprehension, or are ludicrous straw-man arguments your go-to response when you're called out on your bullshit?
No-one even hinted, much less argued the bit I bolded.
I am pointing out that your counterfactual blind assertion that oath swearing outside of to the king, was illegal.

galexander wrote:And why do I get the strong impression there are trolls on this thread? Hardly any of the posters on this thread are impartial in any way.

:roll: Says the person who consistently fails to engage with what people actually post, instead opting to lob ever more deranged straw-man accusations around... :coffee:


Can you convince me that you are not a professional poster with some 30,742 posts to date?

It's not just yourself either, there are other posters on this thread with some 20,000+ and 50,000+ posts to date. I can't see how it's possible for just one person to post so many comments on a single forum.

How many posts do you make a day typically?


Lol. This forum is ten years old. Do the math, not the meth.
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Re: The Real History of the Freemasons?

#39  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 23, 2020 2:05 pm

galexander wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:Is it that you struggle with basic reading comprehension, or are ludicrous straw-man arguments your go-to response when you're called out on your bullshit?
No-one even hinted, much less argued the bit I bolded.
I am pointing out that your counterfactual blind assertion that oath swearing outside of to the king, was illegal.

galexander wrote:And why do I get the strong impression there are trolls on this thread? Hardly any of the posters on this thread are impartial in any way.

:roll: Says the person who consistently fails to engage with what people actually post, instead opting to lob ever more deranged straw-man accusations around... :coffee:


Can you convince me that you are not a professional poster with some 30,742 posts to date?

Wtf even is a 'professional poster'? My responses to your inane drivel are sincere.
I do not post on this site to earn a living however.

galexander wrote:It's not just yourself either, there are other posters on this thread with some 20,000+ and 50,000+ posts to date.

I've been a member for over 10 years. As have many of the others.

galexander wrote: I can't see how it's possible for just one person to post so many comments on a single forum.

Not only is this a silly appeal to personal incredulity and ignorance fallacy, that fails to hide your failure to address the points being raised, it's also quite telling that you don't understand how regular posters with over a decade of membership can reach high posting numbers.

galexander wrote:How many posts do you make a day typically?

How more transparently are you going to attempt to shift attention away from the thread topic and the responses you got? Pathetic. :coffee:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: The Real History of the Freemasons?

#40  Postby felltoearth » May 23, 2020 2:07 pm

galexander seems to think that if you have an informed opinion and make it known, that makes you a troll.
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