The tale of our ecological footprints as best we can convey

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Re: The tale of our ecological footprints as best we can convey

#101  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 08, 2019 1:33 pm

juju7 wrote:Rubbish. You won't even clearly state what you're trying to argue.


A brand new line of attack. It might have been best if you'd have worked out in advance what it is you wanted to argue about before typing.

Of course, at any point you could have asked me to clarify what I wrote, asked me a question or two, or looked at the dozens of posts I've made on the subject - but no, you want to scrap.


juju7 wrote:Are you saying that fewer people would mean a lower ecological footprint, or not?


Am I saying that if two thirds of today's population were to disappear over-night that humanity's ecological footprint would be lower? Well, that's not quite what I said, but it would be a damn sight more accurate than your rendition, and it would also be true. Could you potentially contrive a scenario where it wouldn't be true? Yes, but then you'd need to add in more components that don't actually exist in the statement.

What I actually said, and what I've talked about before in this thread and others, is that if the global population were 2 billion then our current standard of living (as an average of our population still comprised of highs and lows) would not be unsustainable, or would at least be dramatically less harmful. If there were 2/3 less humans, of course our impact on the environment would be less: we'd be emitting vastly less greenhouse gas, consuming vastly less resources, farming far fewer cows and rice, exploiting much less of the landscape and so on.

So, you can try and manipulate it if you like, and imagine scenarios where the 2 billion are all the most exploitative individuals, living lives of excessive consumption, but even then, my statement would be more accurate than your argument to the contrary. Less humans = less impact on environment by humans. It's actually quite banal.
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Re: The tale of our ecological footprints as best we can convey

#102  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 08, 2019 1:34 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
Rubbish, yourself. Spearthrower clearly stated that if the population were 2 billion instead of 7 billion, current levels of consumption would not be unsustainable. You weren't paying attention, though, or else you have some other axe to grind, such as the non sequiur that was pointed out to you, namely, that "not everyone contributes equally", which hasn't been questioned.



It's good to know I wasn't just imagining that my position was the thing I said rather than the thing Juju7 told me it was! :cheers:
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Re: The tale of our ecological footprints as best we can convey

#103  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 08, 2019 1:35 pm

tuco wrote:There will not be 2B people, stop dreaming ;)


tuco wrote:lol there will not be 2B people. Period. Babble all you want.


I'm not convinced you understand the concept of hypothetical scenarios.
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Re: The tale of our ecological footprints as best we can convey

#104  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 08, 2019 1:36 pm

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Re: The tale of our ecological footprints as best we can convey

#105  Postby laklak » Jun 08, 2019 4:23 pm

If we're talking hypotheticals, how about 0 ground apes? That actually seems more doable thn 2 Billion or 20 Billion. Wait till the Klingons track Voyager back to the source.
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Re: The tale of our ecological footprints as best we can convey

#106  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 08, 2019 4:31 pm

laklak wrote:If we're talking hypotheticals, how about 0 ground apes? That actually seems more doable thn 2 Billion or 20 Billion. Wait till the Klingons track Voyager back to the source.


Derelict in their duty, the Klingons seem to be doing very little besides lollygagging.

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Re: The tale of our ecological footprints as best we can convey

#107  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 08, 2019 4:43 pm

laklak wrote:If we're talking hypotheticals, how about 0 ground apes?



I think it's pretty much established beyond reasonable doubt that there has to be at least 1 ground ape retained to feed the cats.
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Re: The tale of our ecological footprints as best we can convey

#108  Postby laklak » Jun 08, 2019 4:45 pm

Maybe a 2nd to pick up the dog shit. Stepping in a pile of dog shit can fuck up your footprint.
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Re: The tale of our ecological footprints as best we can convey

#109  Postby tuco » Jun 08, 2019 6:18 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
tuco wrote:There will not be 2B people, stop dreaming ;)


tuco wrote:lol there will not be 2B people. Period. Babble all you want.


I'm not convinced you understand the concept of hypothetical scenarios.


What are you saying?

I am saying that we should prepare, we should instill policies, for example as per the recommendations of IPBES Global Assessment, for 20B - the worst case scenario.

What do you propose? Except stating the trivial:



Oh really!? That is fucking genius, Nobel Prize material. It never occurred to anyone I am sure, certainly never occurred to me. I guess it's because I was never postgrad.

Now what? Do you have kids? Do you propose government imposed birth control? Do you propose birth control on self-restraint bases? Do you propose releasing virus wiping out population like some other posters here? What to do with the fucking obvious statement? I am all ears.

You guys have a club or something? Jesus fucking christ this unbelievable. I have to promise myself not to take you off the list at least for 6 months now. Fuck this shit.

Do you want to know what I personally think? Where can I write it without being sanctioned? Gimme email? I will write to you fucking personally.
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Re: The tale of our ecological footprints as best we can convey

#110  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 08, 2019 6:48 pm

tuco wrote:

What are you saying?

I am saying that we should prepare, we should instill policies, for example as per the recommendations of IPBES Global Assessment, for 20B - the worst case scenario.

What do you propose?


He's not proposing anything, but then, neither are you, in contradistinction to the elevated opinion you have of whatever you think you're doing. Yammering at tedious length about what people should do is not a strategy, in case you're just catching up to the idea of a strategy. Yammering about what people should do is what college kids in the dorm do at 2 AM over a half empty keg of beer, and it's what preachers in pulpits do, too.

Odds on, what's going to happen is that no drastic measures will be implemented until after a few mega-catastrophes involving weather or mass migration due to regional failures of agriculture. When that happens, politics will go to hell and the sorts of repressive solutions that will be applied will make your nightmares about compulsory family planning look like a Sunday joy ride-- to you, if you live so long. You obviously have a thing about repressive policies, claiming you lived through them, which means that by now you might have grown up enough not to have a tantrum every time someone waves a hypothetical at you. It means you're old enough and mature enough not to give the middle finger to a few ideas that don't suit your mood.

tuco wrote:Do you want to know what I personally think?


We fucking well know what you think, which is not very clearly when you're in the middle of one of your tantrums.
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Re: The tale of our ecological footprints as best we can convey

#111  Postby tuco » Jun 08, 2019 6:50 pm

6 months for you too. Gimme email?
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Re: The tale of our ecological footprints as best we can convey

#112  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 08, 2019 6:54 pm

tuco wrote:6 months for you too. Gimme email?


Cry me a river.
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Re: The tale of our ecological footprints as best we can convey

#113  Postby laklak » Jun 08, 2019 8:32 pm

Trust in Malthus, He will provide.
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Re: The tale of our ecological footprints as best we can convey

#114  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 09, 2019 4:00 am

tuco wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
I'm not convinced you understand the concept of hypothetical scenarios.


What are you saying?


I'm saying that I am not convinced you understand the concept of hypothetical scenarios. Perhaps it's cultural. In the English language, we use either 'if' or 2nd Conditional to enter into a notional scenario where we can think about the world being different than it is.


tuco wrote:I am saying that we should prepare,...


This isn't a response to my post. I didn't say 'you aren't saying X' - I said, I am not convinced you understand the concept of hypothetical scenarios.

But as you mentioned it - I don't think you have said anything about 'we should prepare'.


tuco wrote:... we should instill policies,...


Who is 'we'? Are there any policy makers here? So in the same vein as your post - what exactly are you doing, tuco? You, a non-expert, are telling a group of non-experts who have no power to effect any policy change other than via democratic processes what you think we should do?


tuco wrote:... for example as per the recommendations of IPBES Global Assessment,...


As I explained last time, the IPBES Global Assessment doesn't really make any recommendations for individuals, only for policy-makers.


tuco wrote:... for 20B - the worst case scenario.


20 billion people isn't really the worst case scenario as it's beyond our power to predict. Following population trends with no unexpected outside impacts, the human population could reach 11 billion by 2100. By that point, we would hit a Malthusian cap on food product... in fact, we will be hitting that cap in 2030 - just 30 more planting and harvesting seasons away. Given current estimates of available arable land, food production and distribution, and other similar factors, we're set to experience a serious existential threat from starvation in the 2030's.

Going beyond 2100, statistically speaking, we're just as likely to see a population crash as continued population growth. There are ample reports from various agencies on this as well, tuco. In fact, the higher the population gets, the more likely it is to crash.


tuco wrote:What do you propose?


I don't propose anything to a bunch of a few dozen people on the internet, because that's not really going to be achieving much anyway. What I am doing is *discussing* the issue with a few dozen people on the internet in a *discussion forum*.


tuco wrote:Except stating the trivial:


I'm joining you in stating the trivial, although it appears that we don't both share an appreciation of what we're doing, nor what we can hope to achieve by doing so.


tuco wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:Personally, I opt for the simplest argument here: the problem is 7 billion people. If there were 2 billion of us, current levels of profligacy would not have an unsustainable effect on the environment.[/url]


Oh really!? That is fucking genius, Nobel Prize material. It never occurred to anyone I am sure, certainly never occurred to me. I guess it's because I was never postgrad.


Yeah, so this is clearly what your post is all about, you acting like a twat.

Of course, anyone reading that post can see that I agree that it's a simple point, in fact I call it 'the simplest' factor. An awful lot of the problems we're trying to find solutions to can't really be resolved due to the human population, whereas if that population were lower then we'd not be experiencing those problems.

You may not need a post-grad to understand that, but a post-grad would have potentially installed into you some sense of discoursive patterns and hypothetical discussion formats that wouldn't have you battering away ineffectually at people who you actually agree with.


tuco wrote:Now what?


Now what what?


tuco wrote: Do you have kids?


I have a son, but I didn't produce him from my loins. I never wanted kids of my own (because of population size) but he's an absolute joy.


tuco wrote: Do you propose government imposed birth control?


Given we had a discussion about this in another thread, and you already cited that thread in this thread, and that I quoted my response to you from there in this thread, then I should hope you'd have some idea what I think about that - if not, then there's hardly any point in me answering again if you weren't able to parse my position the first time.

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/gener ... l#p2699524


tuco wrote: Do you propose birth control on self-restraint bases?


What would be the point of proposing birth control on such a basis? If people are exercising 'self-restraint' they don't need me to propose that they do what they're already doing, would they? And who is it I am supposed to be proposing such scenarios to on this discussion forum? The other members?


tuco wrote: Do you propose releasing virus wiping out population like some other posters here?


Um no.

You should probably be able to guess whether or not I propose such a solution from my reply to that notion just two posts down from it:

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/news- ... l#p2691429

Spearthrower wrote:Murder's always a great solution to a problem. :what:



tuco wrote: What to do with the fucking obvious statement? I am all ears.


Discuss it, tuco... that's what we're here for. This does seem to always cause you such difficulty.

For example, you appear to be labouring under a rather nonsensical condition that we're here to 'propose' things to people, or to effect change... on this forum. I don't know you, I don't know what happens in your life, but this idea suggests to me that you have a rather warped notion of what this forum means to other people. Propose all you like, but apart from the fact that you're largely singing to the choir here (as in, very few people here dispute the impact of human caused environmental degradation), there's also the small problem that even if everyone here were to agree to a proposal, it would still represent a piss in the ocean. Convincing a couple of dozen members of this website isn't going to result in any change.

If you think you're doing something constructive here, tuco... I am not sure anyone can get through to you, and even though your actions would be pointless, I personally would opt for the 'well, he's not doing any harm, and at least he's trying, bless him' approach.

No, someone like KIR is trying to do something. He's part of a protest movement which aims to effect change in a democratic landscape both by pressuring policy-makers to effect the society-level changes we need, and by raising awareness among the electorate so that they can tip the scales in terms of electing policy-makers who value these factors.

But what you're doing here is essentially nothing, chap. So next time you want to rant about the topic from the perspective of someone not having made any proposals to solve the world's problems, perhaps consider whether you're achieving that heady goal yourself.


tuco wrote:You guys have a club or something? Jesus fucking christ this unbelievable. I have to promise myself not to take you off the list at least for 6 months now. Fuck this shit.


Let me help you here tuco: go fuck yourself. Your childish little list bullshit is pathetic, an attempt to position yourself as superior, to control other people, and to suggest that you possess the credibility to decide what's worthy here. You invariably act like a spoiled little brat who wants to take his ball away whenever you get your knickers in a twist about someone posting outside your capacity, which is very often. Your posts are generally of the lowest caliber here, you have no ability to engage in anything substantive, and all you ever do is bitch and snipe at everyone.

Sign me up to your baby tantrum list for life; no skin off my nose: http://mythfolklore.net/aesopica/milowinter/19.htm


tuco wrote:Do you want to know what I personally think? Where can I write it without being sanctioned? Gimme email? I will write to you fucking personally.


You act like a 7 year old with poor social skills. If you've got the gumption: write it here in public and take the rap, if it's worth so much to you to abuse me, then it's worth taking a warning or brief suspension for, isn't it?

Or you could just grow the fuck up.
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Re: The tale of our ecological footprints as best we can convey

#115  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 09, 2019 4:04 am

tuco wrote:6 months for you too. Gimme email?



Child.
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Re: The tale of our ecological footprints as best we can convey

#116  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 09, 2019 4:05 am

Cito di Pense wrote:
He's not proposing anything, but then, neither are you, in contradistinction to the elevated opinion you have of whatever you think you're doing. Yammering at tedious length about what people should do is not a strategy,...


This.


Cito di Pense wrote:Odds on, what's going to happen is that no drastic measures will be implemented until after a few mega-catastrophes involving weather or mass migration due to regional failures of agriculture. When that happens, politics will go to hell and the sorts of repressive solutions that will be applied will make your nightmares about compulsory family planning look like a Sunday joy ride-- to you, if you live so long. You obviously have a thing about repressive policies, claiming you lived through them, which means that by now you might have grown up enough not to have a tantrum every time someone waves a hypothetical at you. It means you're old enough and mature enough not to give the middle finger to a few ideas that don't suit your mood.


And definitely this.


Cito di Pense wrote:
We fucking well know what you think, which is not very clearly when you're in the middle of one of your tantrums.


And even more this.



Edit: correct quotes
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Re: The tale of our ecological footprints as best we can convey

#117  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 09, 2019 4:08 am

laklak wrote:Trust in Malthus, He will provide.



If we don't effect change, change will affect us. It's strange how many people don't want Malthus' reach to include humans. It's that special sauce we reserve for ourselves.

That's actually a non-banal point to come out of tuco's wibble. Population growth predictions going past 2100 (11 billion people) see human catastrophe scenarios rapidly increasing in likelihood where by 2200, the human population of the planet has a greater chance of being 2 billion than it does of being 20 billion.
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Re: The tale of our ecological footprints as best we can convey

#118  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 09, 2019 4:31 am

Spearthrower wrote:
laklak wrote:Trust in Malthus, He will provide.



If we don't effect change, change will affect us. It's strange how many people don't want Malthus' reach to include humans. It's that special sauce we reserve for ourselves.

That's actually a non-banal point to come out of tuco's wibble. Population growth predictions going past 2100 (11 billion people) see human catastrophe scenarios rapidly increasing in likelihood where by 2200, the human population of the planet has a greater chance of being 2 billion than it does of being 20 billion.


And then there's also Macdoc's doctored images of the way it would look if we piled everyone into the Grand Canyon for a group photo...

I love the way some people will extrapolate differential equations to non-physical situations. There, in a nutshell, is one clear difference between mathematics and physics, in case anyone wants to revive that one.

I don't know what kind of ethos lies behind such wishful thinking. I'm not a seller of logo t-shirts and coffee mugs on the internet.
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Re: The tale of our ecological footprints as best we can convey

#119  Postby laklak » Jun 09, 2019 9:47 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
If we don't effect change, change will affect us.


There's a saying in the diesel world - if you don't schedule engine maintenance, it will schedule it for you.

Cito di Pense wrote:
I don't know what kind of ethos lies behind such wishful thinking. I'm not a seller of logo t-shirts and coffee mugs on the internet.


Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos.

But you probably can't put that on a T-shirt these day, because Nazis.
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Re: The tale of our ecological footprints as best we can convey

#120  Postby Hermit » Jun 10, 2019 4:21 am

Spearthrower wrote:...you appear to be labouring under a rather nonsensical condition that we're here to 'propose' things to people

Point of order: The first of several meanings given in the Oxford Dictionary for 'propose' is to [p]ut forward (a plan or suggestion) for consideration by others. That is exactly what tuco has done. He did not "Nominate (someone) for an elected office or as a member of a society", "Put forward (a motion) to a legislature or committee", "Intend to do something" nor "Make an offer of marriage to someone". I really doubt he meant we should make policies in this forum when he wrote: "that we should prepare, we should instill policies, for example as per the recommendations of IPBES Global Assessment, for 20B - the worst case scenario".
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