The tale of our ecological footprints as best we can convey

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Re: The tale of our ecological footprints as best we can convey

#61  Postby juju7 » Jun 03, 2019 1:34 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
juju7 wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:

Personally, I opt for the simplest argument here: the problem is 7 billion people. If there were 2 billion of us, current levels of profligacy would not have an unsustainable effect on the environment.



That is nonsense. Not everybody contributes equally.



And that is a non-sequitur.


Not at all.

That argument of yours is not the simplest but it is the most simplistic.
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Re: The tale of our ecological footprints as best we can convey

#62  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 03, 2019 2:55 pm

juju7 wrote:
Not at all.

That argument of yours is not the simplest but it is the most simplistic.



I'm not really sure, given how you clearly didn't even grasp what I said, that you would now go on to call it 'simplistic'. But whenever you do feel the urge to make a coherent argument, I will be more than happy to pay attention to it.
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Re: The tale of our ecological footprints as best we can convey

#63  Postby juju7 » Jun 05, 2019 12:11 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
juju7 wrote:
Not at all.

That argument of yours is not the simplest but it is the most simplistic.



I'm not really sure, given how you clearly didn't even grasp what I said, that you would now go on to call it 'simplistic'. But whenever you do feel the urge to make a coherent argument, I will be more than happy to pay attention to it.


You are right I do not understand your argument. I thought you were saying that fewer people would mean a lower ecological footprint.
Sorry for misunderstanding.
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Re: The tale of our ecological footprints as best we can convey

#64  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 05, 2019 1:04 pm

juju7 wrote:
You are right I do not understand your argument. I thought you were saying that fewer people would mean a lower ecological footprint.


What you should focus on is:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity

In philosophy and rhetoric, the principle of charity or charitable interpretation requires interpreting a speaker's statements in the most rational way possible and, in the case of any argument, considering its best, strongest possible interpretation.[1] In its narrowest sense, the goal of this methodological principle is to avoid attributing irrationality, logical fallacies, or falsehoods to the others' statements, when a coherent, rational interpretation of the statements is available. According to Simon Blackburn[2] "it constrains the interpreter to maximize the truth or rationality in the subject's sayings."



Because you're doing the opposite, and consequently criticizing a strawman.
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Re: The tale of our ecological footprints as best we can convey

#65  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 05, 2019 1:07 pm

juju7 wrote:
You are right I do not understand your argument. I thought you were saying that fewer people would mean a lower ecological footprint.
Sorry for misunderstanding.


You didn't simply misunderstand. You started out by discounting the critical importance of population size on the basis that "not everyone contributes equally". Nice dodge, but it is recognized as a strawman.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: The tale of our ecological footprints as best we can convey

#66  Postby Keep It Real » Jun 05, 2019 4:02 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
Keep It Real wrote: I have my electricity supplied through a non green tariff.


Just signed up to Scottish Power for my leky, maybe a little bit dearer but 100% offshore wind generated!!!


Turns out I was flat out lied to by the scumbag salesman. This is their fuel mix. Level of impressedness = 0. I hope he's there next Sunday.

http://www.scottishpower.co.uk/about-us/performance/fuel-mix
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Re: The tale of our ecological footprints as best we can convey

#67  Postby tuco » Jun 05, 2019 4:08 pm

Where? ;) Albeit late, you did your homework. Never trust these spineless motherfuckers out of principle.

As a side note, I wonder how energy markets gonna adapt in the context of and with regards to environmental protection. For example, I am pretty sure we sell electricity to Germany and we have nuclear and coal plants.
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Re: The tale of our ecological footprints as best we can convey

#68  Postby Keep It Real » Jun 05, 2019 4:09 pm

If you click on the "our fuel mix" link at the bottom of their homepage it says 100% offshore wind too. Completely fucking outrageous. I've reported them to the ASA.
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Re: The tale of our ecological footprints as best we can convey

#69  Postby tuco » Jun 05, 2019 4:24 pm

Well,

We're the first integrated energy company in the UK to announce we'll soon be producing 100% green electricity.


so their own sources are 100%

The fuel mix information details how the electricity we supply you with has been generated in the previous year from each fuel source - such as coal, natural gas, renewable and nuclear energy - and compares ScottishPower’s fuel mix with the average for Great Britain.


and they also buy and resell.

Or?
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Re: The tale of our ecological footprints as best we can convey

#70  Postby BlackBart » Jun 05, 2019 6:27 pm

Keep It Real wrote:If you click on the "our fuel mix" link at the bottom of their homepage it says 100% offshore wind too. Completely fucking outrageous. I've reported them to the ASA.

That's the 2017-18 figures. The current mix is 100 percent wind power now. A trivial Google search shows that they sold off their last fossil fuel power stations last year. Good luck with the ASA thing.
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Re: The tale of our ecological footprints as best we can convey

#71  Postby tuco » Jun 05, 2019 6:32 pm

And nuclear?
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Re: The tale of our ecological footprints as best we can convey

#72  Postby Thommo » Jun 05, 2019 6:34 pm

I think there's a second part as well. The wind doesn't always blow, so the electricity you receive depends in part on how much of your supply is bought in from the national grid over a given period, and that manifests in those figures, I believe.
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Re: The tale of our ecological footprints as best we can convey

#73  Postby tuco » Jun 05, 2019 6:39 pm

Obviously, it confuses some their customers. Not sure what the salesperson said to Keep It Real but for example: Our energy is 100% wind generated does not indeed tell the whole story. There is such a thing as an honest sale or?
Last edited by tuco on Jun 05, 2019 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The tale of our ecological footprints as best we can convey

#74  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 05, 2019 6:41 pm

tuco wrote:Obviously, it confuses some their customers. Now sure what the salesperson said to Keep It Real but for example: Our energy is 100% wind generated does not indeed tell the whole story. There is such a thing as an honest sale or?


The details are going to be confusing to almost anyone who doesn't realize that the wind doesn't always blow.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: The tale of our ecological footprints as best we can convey

#75  Postby tuco » Jun 05, 2019 6:49 pm

I realize wind does not always blow but since I am pretty much ignorant of technologies used today the sentence in question would not necessarily make me suspicious. Either nobody here spotted it when Keep It Real posted about it first or nobody cared to comment, who knows. They could have some kind of storage .. lol right? Still, I would not blame the customer for being ignorant.
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Re: The tale of our ecological footprints as best we can convey

#76  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 05, 2019 7:12 pm

tuco wrote:I realize wind does not always blow but since I am pretty much ignorant of technologies used today the sentence in question would not necessarily make me suspicious. Either nobody here spotted it when Keep It Real posted about it first or nobody cared to comment, who knows. They could have some kind of storage .. lol right? Still, I would not blame the customer for being ignorant.


Well, for me, it comes down to trying to buy the cleanest energy one can, under the circumstances. One utility company offered the "green" option, and I used it from 2002 to 2013. That company kept me well informed about how they handled their supply and demand, and explained a little about the kind of trading they had to engage in.

Storing energy for utility customers is a bit hairy. I think they know something about how the oceans store and release heat and once they figure out how to exploit it, there will be another source of fairly clean energy.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: The tale of our ecological footprints as best we can convey

#77  Postby BlackBart » Jun 05, 2019 8:10 pm

Thommo wrote:I think there's a second part as well. The wind doesn't always blow, so the electricity you receive depends in part on how much of your supply is bought in from the national grid over a given period, and that manifests in those figures, I believe.


Scottish Power supplies electricity to the National Grid which is the tranmission network. It's generated solely by wind power. When there's no wind (And in Scotland thats going to be rare) the slack will be taken up by other methods of generation supplied by other suppliers such as Drax. But the power supplied by Scottish Power is always going to be 100% wind generated because they no longer own any other kind of power station.

That still doesn't mean the actual lekky KIR receives is generated by Scottish Power - It might even be French Nuclear lekky! :shock:
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Re: The tale of our ecological footprints as best we can convey

#78  Postby Thommo » Jun 05, 2019 8:18 pm

BlackBart wrote:That still doesn't mean the actual lekky KIR receives is generated by Scottish Power - It might even be French Nuclear lekky! :shock:


You can always tell when that happens. All the electrons wear jaunty berets and your plugs start humming La Marseillaise.
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Re: The tale of our ecological footprints as best we can convey

#79  Postby Keep It Real » Jun 05, 2019 8:22 pm

BlackBart wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:If you click on the "our fuel mix" link at the bottom of their homepage it says 100% offshore wind too. Completely fucking outrageous. I've reported them to the ASA.

That's the 2017-18 figures. The current mix is 100 percent wind power now. A trivial Google search shows that they sold off their last fossil fuel power stations last year. Good luck with the ASA thing.


I'm totally confused now...the call centre operative I spoke to today when I phoned up in a barely contained rage having received their....er...true fuel mix in my welcome pack through the post, said the salesman had lied and they are not 100% offshore/green...anyway I'm switching to Ecotricity....they've got "Eco" in their name so must be legit.
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Re: The tale of our ecological footprints as best we can convey

#80  Postby BlackBart » Jun 05, 2019 8:33 pm

Sounds like the call centre guy got their knickers in a knot then.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ergy-firms
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