What makes a good community and society?

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Re: What makes a good community and society?

#21  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jan 26, 2020 5:12 pm

elderberryhat wrote:
Macdoc wrote:Economically a unified culture is somewhat advantaged over a multi-cultural society but can have some issues with maintaining a labour force without immigration.
Japan is facing a shrinking and aging population.


Which kind of society do you think is likely to be more functional, cohesive and high trust, a multicultural one, or a homogeneous one?

Which do you think is better and why? :coffee:
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Re: What makes a good community and society?

#22  Postby Hermit » Jan 26, 2020 5:24 pm

elderberryhat wrote:
Macdoc wrote:Economically a unified culture is somewhat advantaged over a multi-cultural society but can have some issues with maintaining a labour force without immigration.
Japan is facing a shrinking and aging population.

Which kind of society do you think is likely to be more functional, cohesive and high trust, a multicultural one, or a homogeneous one?

Sparta serves as the pinnacle of functional, cohesive, high trust, homogeneous societies. There was another one that came close to it in the first half of the 20th century.
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Re: What makes a good community and society?

#23  Postby Ironclad » Jan 26, 2020 9:47 pm

elderberryhat wrote:What are the elements that go into making a functional, cohesive, high trust community and society?
No enemies, common goals, bacon and free coffee.
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Re: What makes a good community and society?

#24  Postby aufbahrung » Jan 26, 2020 9:57 pm

Gotta have a purge every now and then. Removes the weak or annoying. Think it helps. Democracy is the application of a purge on the political class under civilized conditions. Doesn't have to be bleak...but probably necessary.
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Re: What makes a good community and society?

#25  Postby laklak » Jan 26, 2020 11:41 pm

Ironclad wrote:
elderberryhat wrote:What are the elements that go into making a functional, cohesive, high trust community and society?
No enemies, common goals, bacon and free coffee.


No cheese? What's wrong with you? Are you some sort of subversve?
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Re: What makes a good community and society?

#26  Postby Macdoc » Jan 26, 2020 11:48 pm

cows fart methane and roos are hard to milk :coffee:
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Re: What makes a good community and society?

#27  Postby SafeAsMilk » Jan 27, 2020 2:21 am

elderberryhat wrote:
Macdoc wrote:Economically a unified culture is somewhat advantaged over a multi-cultural society but can have some issues with maintaining a labour force without immigration.
Japan is facing a shrinking and aging population.


Which kind of society do you think is likely to be more functional, cohesive and high trust, a multicultural one, or a homogeneous one?

It's certainly much easier to make sheep out of a homogenous one.
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Re: What makes a good community and society?

#28  Postby Ironclad » Jan 27, 2020 2:38 am

laklak wrote:
Ironclad wrote:
elderberryhat wrote:What are the elements that go into making a functional, cohesive, high trust community and society?
No enemies, common goals, bacon and free coffee.


No cheese? What's wrong with you? Are you some sort of subversve?
Call me, Mr Prevert :smoke:
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Re: What makes a good community and society?

#29  Postby Macdoc » Jan 27, 2020 5:07 am

Which kind of society do you think is likely to be more functional, cohesive and high trust, a multicultural one, or a homogeneous one?


How's that melting pot idea doing in the US??

I'll take our mosaic any day. :coffee:
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Re: What makes a good community and society?

#30  Postby aufbahrung » Jan 27, 2020 5:18 am

Melting pots overated and all populations eventually age as the means to reproduce productively fail in the face of resource limits and living space and a decline in social values to the lowest common and that sort of thing. The mice don't need to run out of living space to turn to cannibalism and other barbarisms, you know that left and right.

What you need is robotics to overcome the issues of a ageing population knowing the social integrity of your folk is the only thing of lasting value in the end, some new blood but under 5% to maintain the cultural memes that are prime in a civilized society. That's not to say I'm a bigot. Don't care if they are white or black or green with blue spots, a quota is a quota and this is about reducing suffering.
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Re: What makes a good community and society?

#31  Postby Hermit » Jan 27, 2020 6:03 am

aufbahrung wrote:the means to reproduce productively fail in the face of resource limits and living space and a decline in social values

Scrumple, I'm quite used to you spouting nonsense, but this bit takes the cake. 1. Birth rates are the highest in the poorest areas. 2. There is no correlation between declining social values and dropping birth rates. 3. The most noticeable correlation concerning birth rates is the ready availability of fertility controls, the anti-baby pill being the most conspicuous among them.

I kind of feel tempted to ask you to put your brain into gear before setting your typing fingers into motion, but since you have never done so in your 56 years it seems extremely unlikely that you will start now.
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Re: What makes a good community and society?

#32  Postby aufbahrung » Jan 27, 2020 9:01 am

Hermit wrote:
aufbahrung wrote:the means to reproduce productively fail in the face of resource limits and living space and a decline in social values

Scrumple, I'm quite used to you spouting nonsense, but this bit takes the cake. 1. Birth rates are the highest in the poorest areas. 2. There is no correlation between declining social values and dropping birth rates. 3. The most noticeable correlation concerning birth rates is the ready availability of fertility controls, the anti-baby pill being the most conspicuous among them.

I kind of feel tempted to ask you to put your brain into gear before setting your typing fingers into motion, but since you have never done so in your 56 years it seems extremely unlikely that you will start now.


Possibly, I've seen Idiocracy too. All the more reason to limit immigration to the few who are gonna add real economic and cultural value to a community than the many who are fleeing broken nations they should really be fixing. Or at the least fleeing to those with similar cultural values.

It's a perspective I suppose? What productive might be meaning to one person. Might mean something more longterm for another, many generations to make a Newton. Not so many to make a lightbulb.
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Re: What makes a good community and society?

#33  Postby Hermit » Jan 27, 2020 9:56 am

aufbahrung wrote:
Hermit wrote:
aufbahrung wrote:the means to reproduce productively fail in the face of resource limits and living space and a decline in social values

Scrumple, I'm quite used to you spouting nonsense, but this bit takes the cake. 1. Birth rates are the highest in the poorest areas. 2. There is no correlation between declining social values and dropping birth rates. 3. The most noticeable correlation concerning birth rates is the ready availability of fertility controls, the anti-baby pill being the most conspicuous among them.

I kind of feel tempted to ask you to put your brain into gear before setting your typing fingers into motion, but since you have never done so in your 56 years it seems extremely unlikely that you will start now.

Possibly, I've seen Idiocracy too. All the more reason to limit immigration to the few who are gonna add real economic and cultural value to a community than the many who are fleeing broken nations they should really be fixing. Or at the least fleeing to those with similar cultural values.

It's a perspective I suppose? What productive might be meaning to one person. Might mean something more longterm for another, many generations to make a Newton. Not so many to make a lightbulb.

What will you try and tell me next, Scrumple? That the net economic effect of migration is negative unless one screens the ones who are not neurosurgeons or billionaires out?

That's not the experience we had when 185,000 Vietnamese refugees started arriving in Australia after the fall of Saigon, many of which turned up uninvited in Darwin on rickety boats.

Image

It is also not the experience we had when 76,000 Lebanese arrived here, mostly as refugees from the Lebanese Civil War in 1975-1990.

The vast majority have become tax-paying wage earners making a positive contribution to our economy. Some of them have become top-level professionals after their arrivals.

The current governor of South Australia is Hieu Van Le. Aged 24, he came by boat to Darwin as a refugee in 1977 with his wife Lan and about 40 other people. Their two sons were born in Australia and are named after Australian cricketers Sir Donald Bradman and Kim Hughes. Hieu Van Le studied at the University of Adelaide, as a result of which he graduated with a Master of Business Administration and an Economics degree. His career included a stint as a senior investigator and manager with the Australian Securities and Investments Commission from the early 1990s until his retirement in 2009.
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Re: What makes a good community and society?

#34  Postby elderberryhat » Jan 27, 2020 10:44 am

aufbahrung wrote:
All the more reason to limit immigration to the few who are gonna add real economic and cultural value to a community than the many who are fleeing broken nations they should really be fixing. Or at the least fleeing to those with similar cultural values.


If a large number of people from one culture (or various cultures) immigrate into a country that has a very different culture, do you think that causes the destination country's society to become less functional, less cohesive and less high trust?
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Re: What makes a good community and society?

#35  Postby Hermit » Jan 27, 2020 11:13 am

Elderberryhat, curiosity is an admirable trait, but you have posted five times in this thread, and all five posts consisted exclusively of asking questions. This is starting to grate. If you were genuinely interested in actually participating in a discussion, which is what the Rational Skepticism forum is designed for, you'd not just ask questions. You'd also write down what you think the answers to them are, at least occasionally. So, how about it? Tell us what you think.
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Re: What makes a good community and society?

#36  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 27, 2020 11:16 am

elderberryhat wrote:
If a large number of people from one culture (or various cultures) immigrate into a country that has a very different culture, do you think that causes the destination country's society to become less functional, less cohesive and less high trust?


Hello again! Nice to see you back here.
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Re: What makes a good community and society?

#37  Postby GrahamH » Jan 27, 2020 11:28 am

elderberryhat wrote:
aufbahrung wrote:
All the more reason to limit immigration to the few who are gonna add real economic and cultural value to a community than the many who are fleeing broken nations they should really be fixing. Or at the least fleeing to those with similar cultural values.


If a large number of people from one culture (or various cultures) immigrate into a country that has a very different culture, do you think that causes the destination country's society to become less functional, less cohesive and less high trust?


No. I think it broadens perspectives. "A homogeneous culture" might work OK for those who exist in a very narrow niche but it oppresses difference from any source. It's a straight jacket that limits any culture in it's contact with a wider world. It's a sort of cultural inbreeding that is likely to lead to disfunction and greater isolation.

Since you keep asking the same question I'm guessing you are hoping for a different answer. Speak your mind.
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Re: What makes a good community and society?

#38  Postby Svartalf » Jan 27, 2020 11:35 am

Well, I know that in the early 20th century, the high influx of Italian (mainly construction workers) and Polish (mostly miners and steel workers) in France caused some nonnegligible unrest, especially in the localities where their presence was making original locals feel 'we're not in France anymore'... Of course, nowadays, those workers' grandkids are perfectly integrated frenchfolk, just with unusual names, and possibly unusual recipes for special occasions.
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Re: What makes a good community and society?

#39  Postby GrahamH » Jan 27, 2020 11:53 am

Svartalf wrote:Well, I know that in the early 20th century, the high influx of Italian (mainly construction workers) and Polish (mostly miners and steel workers) in France caused some nonnegligible unrest, especially in the localities where their presence was making original locals feel 'we're not in France anymore'... Of course, nowadays, those workers' grandkids are perfectly integrated frenchfolk, just with unusual names, and possibly unusual recipes for special occasions.


Do you think they are "perfectly integrated frenchfolk" fitting in perfectly with the France before they came, or is it that they, and France have changed together to become something more than before (beyond the new cuisine)?
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Re: What makes a good community and society?

#40  Postby Svartalf » Jan 27, 2020 12:13 pm

your question is meaningless and pointless. I can't speak for the first generation immigrants, but their third or fourth generation descendents were born and bred here, they have no other identity than French.
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