What makes a good community and society?

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Re: What makes a good community and society?

#41  Postby GrahamH » Jan 27, 2020 12:22 pm

Svartalf wrote:your question is meaningless and pointless. I can't speak for the first generation immigrants, but their third or fourth generation descendents were born and bred here, they have no other identity than French.



Why "meaningless and pointless"? The topic asks what makes a good society and my question asks if immigration has, in your opinion, improved french society, or if newcomers have simply been assimilated into an unchanging French society that remains much as it ever was.

I didn't think it would a be a contentious question. An overly literal reading of your remark "grandkids are perfectly integrated frenchfolk" would be that nothing changed, but surely things have changed. Is it for better or worse, do you think?
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Re: What makes a good community and society?

#42  Postby aban57 » Jan 27, 2020 12:48 pm

Svartalf wrote:Well, I know that in the early 20th century, the high influx of Italian (mainly construction workers) and Polish (mostly miners and steel workers) in France caused some nonnegligible unrest, especially in the localities where their presence was making original locals feel 'we're not in France anymore'... Of course, nowadays, those workers' grandkids are perfectly integrated frenchfolk, just with unusual names, and possibly unusual recipes for special occasions.


You adapted your definition of "integrated" to fit your general narrative here. Many of the 2nd or 3rd generation still speak their origin language, in addition the French. Is that "integrated" ? Or they support their origin nation in international competitions, or consider it "their" country, instead or in addition to France. Is that "perfectly integrated" to you ?

You're buidling a false dichotomy between the "brown" immigrates, who don't integrate, according to you, and the european immigrates, who "perfectly integrate". Typical Le Pen argument.
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Re: What makes a good community and society?

#43  Postby Svartalf » Jan 27, 2020 1:09 pm

and I speak english fluently, does that make me less french?

but thanks for pointing the fact that African/Arabic immigrants indeed have failed to integrate, even as late as third generation, unlike European Christian ones, who melded into French society, their culture seems not to be soluble into Frenchness, and they cling to it.
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Re: What makes a good community and society?

#44  Postby GrahamH » Jan 27, 2020 1:41 pm

Svartalf wrote:and I speak english fluently, does that make me less french?


Why would it? Isn't the point sometimes made about language that not speaking the local language is a problem?
If you didn't speak fluent French, like many English immigrants to France, some might criticise for that. But surely nobody criticises a person who speaks fluent French and also speaks German and Russian, do they?
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Re: What makes a good community and society?

#45  Postby SafeAsMilk » Jan 27, 2020 1:47 pm

I'm shocked to find the OP JAQing off.
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Re: What makes a good community and society?

#46  Postby Svartalf » Jan 27, 2020 1:49 pm

Well, you might suspect German and Russian speakers to be traitors sold to foreign powers ;)
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Re: What makes a good community and society?

#47  Postby GrahamH » Jan 27, 2020 1:55 pm

Svartalf wrote:Well, you might suspect German and Russian speakers to be traitors sold to foreign powers ;)


It that some sort of confession? Are you an English spy?! :o
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Re: What makes a good community and society?

#48  Postby Svartalf » Jan 27, 2020 2:30 pm

Canadian actually.
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Re: What makes a good community and society?

#49  Postby elderberryhat » Jan 27, 2020 3:24 pm

Svartalf wrote:and I speak english fluently, does that make me less french?

but thanks for pointing the fact that African/Arabic immigrants indeed have failed to integrate, even as late as third generation, unlike European Christian ones, who melded into French society, their culture seems not to be soluble into Frenchness, and they cling to it.


Why do you think that african and arab immigrants fail to integrate into european countries? Do you think it's because they cannot or do you think it's because they have no real desire to? Do you think it's a case of the two cultures being incompatible?
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Re: What makes a good community and society?

#50  Postby GrahamH » Jan 27, 2020 3:46 pm

elderberryhat wrote:
Svartalf wrote:and I speak english fluently, does that make me less french?

but thanks for pointing the fact that African/Arabic immigrants indeed have failed to integrate, even as late as third generation, unlike European Christian ones, who melded into French society, their culture seems not to be soluble into Frenchness, and they cling to it.


Why do you think that african and arab immigrants fail to integrate into european countries? Do you think it's because they cannot or do you think it's because they have no real desire to? Do you think it's a case of the two cultures being incompatible?


That question is far too absolute. It is beyond question that people from anywhere in the world can integrate to any degree.
You may judge that some don't integrate much and tend to live in "expat communities". This is well known of English people in Spain, but not all English people in Spain.
And if some proportion of immigrants don't mix so much is that good, bad or neutral for society at large?
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Re: What makes a good community and society?

#51  Postby Svartalf » Jan 27, 2020 3:48 pm

If I really knew, I'd be a highly paid pundit advising our rulers on policy, instead of a shut in retiree.
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Re: What makes a good community and society?

#52  Postby laklak » Jan 27, 2020 3:55 pm

A homogeneous society would be boring as hell. You want some Velveeta on that burger?
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Re: What makes a good community and society?

#53  Postby Svartalf » Jan 27, 2020 4:13 pm

gimme blue cheese, or aged cheddar at the worst, a good burger deserves good cheese.
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Re: What makes a good community and society?

#54  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 27, 2020 5:09 pm

elderberryhat wrote:
Why do you think that african and arab immigrants fail to integrate into european countries? Do you think it's because they cannot or do you think it's because they have no real desire to? Do you think it's a case of the two cultures being incompatible?


Do you think those questions are predicated on a naive comprehension of culture? Do you think they're built broken on purpose? Why do you think that the OP is using JAQing off expecting politically particular answers? Has this person been here before with a different username?
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Re: What makes a good community and society?

#55  Postby Hermit » Jan 27, 2020 6:11 pm

Svartalf wrote:but thanks for pointing the fact that African/Arabic immigrants indeed have failed to integrate

That's not what aban57 wrote, Svartalf. Please read what he did write again:
aban57 wrote:You're buidling a false dichotomy between the "brown" immigrates, who don't integrate, according to you, and the european immigrates, who "perfectly integrate". Typical Le Pen argument.

To help your comprehension along, let me draw your attention to the following words: "You're buidling a false dichotomy" and "Typical Le Pen argument". In case you still don't get it, aban is describing what you call "the fact that African/Arabic immigrants indeed have failed to integrate" a false dichotomy, one that you built, and a typical Le Pen argument.

Now, I believe that there are in fact enclaves and ghettos of African/Arabic immigrants that have failed to integrate. We have a similar problem in Australia, except for the fact that our ghettos and enclaves consist of people whose ancestors have lived here for thousands of years before Captain Arthur Phillip proclaimed British sovereignty over the eastern seaboard of Australia 232 years and 2 days ago. For this absurd reason we celebrate the 26th of January as "Australia Day". Most Aborigines refer to it as Invasion Day.

Now, the questions arise: Are the Aborigines incapable of integrating with what started off as British culture? Are they mendaciously refusing to integrate? Or is our behaviour toward them preventing them from doing so?

In my opinion the latter scenario applies. We have stopped actually massacring Australia's original population in 1927, but we have historically treated them as a distinct race that was bound to remain separate or extinguished altogether. In the early censuses, starting in 1901, they were not even counted. Although we happily used them as soldiers in both world wars, it took decades before we admitted them formally as citizens and allowed them to vote. Until the 1950s, and to a lesser extent as late as the 1970s we tried to breed them out of existence by kidnapping their children in the reservations by the thousands and placing them in upright and uptight Anglo-Saxon, or at least Caucasian households. It's where the expression of "the stolen generations" comes from. Of course now our right wing pundits deny it ever happened.

We did confer "honorary whiteness" on successful Aboriginal sporting figures like Evonne Goolagong. That is as long as they were not outspoken about their lot, as Adam Goode found out not so long ago.

Today, all the formal and legal impediments of being an Aborigine have been dismantled, but our pervasive everyday racism towards them remains and this othering acts as a barrier to integration every bit as effectively as the formal and legal forms of segregation of yore. I suggest this is also the case with the African/Arabic immigrants in France, and you are just one of the millions of racists that perpetuate it.
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Re: What makes a good community and society?

#56  Postby laklak » Jan 27, 2020 7:10 pm

Whose sock was it?
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Re: What makes a good community and society?

#57  Postby aban57 » Jan 27, 2020 7:13 pm

Hermit wrote:
Svartalf wrote:but thanks for pointing the fact that African/Arabic immigrants indeed have failed to integrate

That's not what aban57 wrote, Svartalf. Please read what he did write again:
aban57 wrote:You're buidling a false dichotomy between the "brown" immigrates, who don't integrate, according to you, and the european immigrates, who "perfectly integrate". Typical Le Pen argument.

To help your comprehension along, let me draw your attention to the following words: "You're buidling a false dichotomy" and "Typical Le Pen argument". In case you still don't get it, aban is describing what you call "the fact that African/Arabic immigrants indeed have failed to integrate" a false dichotomy, one that you built, and a typical Le Pen argument.

Now, I believe that there are in fact enclaves and ghettos of African/Arabic immigrants that have failed to integrate. We have a similar problem in Australia, except for the fact that our ghettos and enclaves consist of people whose ancestors have lived here for thousands of years before Captain Arthur Phillip proclaimed British sovereignty over the eastern seaboard of Australia 232 years and 2 days ago. For this absurd reason we celebrate the 26th of January as "Australia Day". Most Aborigines refer to it as Invasion Day.

Now, the questions arise: Are the Aborigines incapable of integrating with what started off as British culture? Are they mendaciously refusing to integrate? Or is our behaviour toward them preventing them from doing so?

In my opinion the latter scenario applies. We have stopped actually massacring Australia's original population in 1927, but we have historically treated them as a distinct race that was bound to remain separate or extinguished altogether. In the early censuses, starting in 1901, they were not even counted. Although we happily used them as soldiers in both world wars, it took decades before we admitted them formally as citizens and allowed them to vote. Until the 1950s, and to a lesser extent as late as the 1970s we tried to breed them out of existence by kidnapping their children in the reservations by the thousands and placing them in upright and uptight Anglo-Saxon, or at least Caucasian households. It's where the expression of "the stolen generations" comes from. Of course now our right wing pundits deny it ever happened.

We did confer "honorary whiteness" on successful Aboriginal sporting figures like Evonne Goolagong. That is as long as they were not outspoken about their lot, as Adam Goode found out not so long ago.

Today, all the formal and legal impediments of being an Aborigine have been dismantled, but our pervasive everyday racism towards them remains and this othering acts as a barrier to integration every bit as effectively as the formal and legal forms of segregation of yore. I suggest this is also the case with the African/Arabic immigrants in France, and you are just one of the millions of racists that perpetuate it.


Thanks for the correction, you got there before me. It was indeed a gross misrepresentation of my position.
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Re: What makes a good community and society?

#58  Postby The_Piper » Jan 27, 2020 7:36 pm

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