Jesus Is Lord wrote:Good point. Somalia is a little too extreme. Where would you suggest instead?

OK. So now you realise there are limits to freedom. To work out which countries are best for personal freedoms we need to work out what these limits ought to be first. That is why I asked: Should or should you not be compelled to pay taxes? Should or should you not be compelled to keep to posted speed limits? Should or should you not have to risk incarceration if you don't pay taxes or keep to posted speed limits? The limits to freedom are an issue.

Once we have worked out what they are, we can look at each country and try to find the one that fits most closely. I suggest you have a good look at the Nordic countries, but they have their own set of problems. For one thing, personal tax rates are very high. Most citizens of those countries do not regard them as unduly impinging on their personal freedoms, though. In fact, they seem to think of them as a means of enhancing them. Free education for all. Free health services for all. And so on.

No I disagree about having to work out what those freedoms ought to be. I mentioned Mexico. I wondered if there were other countries that are similar.

Jesus Is Lord wrote:No I disagree about having to work out what those freedoms ought to be.

You want to find out which countries are best for personal freedoms without first working out what those freedoms ought to be? Good luck with that.

Hermit wrote:

Jesus Is Lord wrote:Freedom is pretty high up on the list for me. Is it not for you? (that's for both posters above)

Oh, yes. Freedom is tops. I just keep asking you how far this freedom can be taken. The point has been repeatedly made now that as long as you live in a society, freedom is circumscribed by all those other individuals who also rightfully demand the same freedom you have.

One of the more consistent features of those banging on about freedom during the pandemic has been an abject ignorance of precisely what it takes to attain and maintain it. Without society, there'd be nothing to protect our freedom, but engaging in society entails sacrificing some freedom for oneself for the reward of greater freedom for all.

People are happy to engage in talk about their bodily autonomy, but never about when some measure of bodily autonomy must be waived for the better protection of the bodily autonomy of everybody.

And that's also why I have absolutely no problem with, for example, vaccine mandates. I very much object to legislation denying my right to protest, or criminalising publication of factual content embarrassing to the government. I very much object to expansion of stop and search - a practice that should be abolished with extreme prejudice.

Op here you go ...your own personal freedom fiefdom....gets a bit boring. Libertarian heaven

Mexico surely has the most Jesuses. That's got to count for something, right?

You could have your own personal one, I reckon.

Seems jc is counterproductive to OP goals....you have to eat beaver on Fridays and such.

Jesus Is Lord wrote:I've been told that Mexico is a good country for personal freedoms. I looked into it and it certainly sounds like a great place to live.

I was wondering if anyone knew of any other countries that are good in that regard.

The US is at the bottom if the list if you include incarcerations per capita. Second worse would be El Salvador by a decent gap. But I imagine your experience is pretty different depending on your ethnicity and/or socioeconomic status.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LZ9q2NDMJc

Jesus Is Lord wrote:Well each person has their priorities. Freedom is pretty high up on the list for me. Is it not for you? (that's for both posters above)

Might be an idea to reply to the content of those posts then?

What exact form does your freedom take, what freedoms are you currently being restricted from enjoying, and would it be preferable for you to live in a place where, alongside you enjoying your personal freedom, other people can enjoy maximal freedoms which you find unacceptable?

Jesus Is Lord wrote:No I disagree about having to work out what those freedoms ought to be.

Then you can't really hope for an answer.

For all we can know, your idea of personal freedom might be bathing in the blood of slaughtered innocents.

Spearthrower wrote:

Jesus Is Lord wrote:No I disagree about having to work out what those freedoms ought to be.

Then you can't really hope for an answer.

For all we can know, your idea of personal freedom might be bathing in the blood of slaughtered innocents.

My ideal weekend.

Almost every country was free in some fashion before the Interweb. You won't find freedom today. No matter where you look. It always was a nebulous term. Something written in the margins of travel brochures rather than being cleverly defined (thus defeating the object). Now it is like ectoplasm. A term that is being forgotten along with the ghosts of coercive ideology that spawned it. No wait. The coercive ideology's survived the transition to cyberspace. As Bowie said. 'Where are we now?'

aufbahrung wrote:Almost every country was free in some fashion before the Interweb.

Every country is free even now in some fashion.

aufbahrung wrote: You won't find freedom today. No matter where you look.

Falsehood stated as fact.

aufbahrung wrote:It always was a nebulous term. Something written in the margins of travel brochures rather than being cleverly defined (thus defeating the object). Now it is like ectoplasm. A term that is being forgotten along with the ghosts of coercive ideology that spawned it. No wait. The coercive ideology's survived the transition to cyberspace. As Bowie said. 'Where are we now?'

If you're free to own a house, start a family, buy food, own property, and generally earn and engage in activities without being controlled by the state, then you have a wealth of freedoms many past societies didn't enjoy.

Jesus Is Lord wrote:I've been told that Mexico is a good country for personal freedoms. I looked into it and it certainly sounds like a great place to live.

I was wondering if anyone knew of any other countries that are good in that regard.

Strange question from somebody who apparently loves it to be lorded over.

RISPUCT MA FREEDUMS!!1!11!

aufbahrung wrote:Almost every country was free in some fashion before the Interweb. You won't find freedom today. No matter where you look. It always was a nebulous term. Something written in the margins of travel brochures rather than being cleverly defined (thus defeating the object). Now it is like ectoplasm. A term that is being forgotten along with the ghosts of coercive ideology that spawned it. No wait. The coercive ideology's survived the transition to cyberspace. As Bowie said. 'Where are we now?'

This is the second dumbest thing I've seen all week.

It's pretty impressive, certainly.

hackenslash wrote:I have absolutely no problem with, for example, vaccine mandates. I very much object to legislation denying my right to protest, or criminalising publication of factual content embarrassing to the government. I very much object to expansion of stop and search - a practice that should be abolished with extreme prejudice.

Vaccine mandates will never succeed. I say that regardless of one's opinion on the matter. It just won't work. As for stop and search, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that simply stopping and searching people based on their conduct and how suspicious they act? Nothing wrong with that. That's exactly part of what the police's job is. To observe people and interact if necessary.

Does it surprise anyone that the racist finds nothing wrong with a racist policing policy?