Calories In/Calories Out

Is it time to de-bunk this claim from nutrition and diet studies?

Anything that doesn't fit anywhere else below.

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Re: Calories In/Calories Out

#61  Postby NilsGLindgren » May 06, 2011 9:29 pm

Feh Manic, that sounds positively dreary! No bloody wonder you loose weight with a diet like that ... I'd feel I cpouldn't be bothered to eat treif like that (one of my oldest friends is a lapsed Jew and he keeps teaching med odds and ends of Jiddish, oy vey). I would have to admit that my breakfast and lunch are not particularly inspiring - well, breakfast is. Lots of fruit, at least two types of fruit and orange juice, also Mrs Crawling's home made müsli which is to die for ... Lunch, then, in my office, is not very inspiring - two buns with ham or chopped liver or some weird Swedish caviar paste (think taramasalata) - no, positively not inspiring. Supper, however, tends to be a rather good meal, also, we are fairly hungry as we usually come directly from the gym - and, when you're hungry, paper will taste just fine ... :lol:
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Re: Calories In/Calories Out

#62  Postby NilsGLindgren » May 06, 2011 9:29 pm

Feh Manic, that sounds positively dreary! No bloody wonder you loose weight with a diet like that ... I'd feel I cpouldn't be bothered to eat treif like that (one of my oldest friends is a lapsed Jew and he keeps teaching med odds and ends of Jiddish, oy vey). I would have to admit that my breakfast and lunch are not particularly inspiring - well, breakfast is. Lots of fruit, at least two types of fruit and orange juice, also Mrs Crawling's home made müsli which is to die for ... Lunch, then, in my office, is not very inspiring - two buns with ham or chopped liver or some weird Swedish caviar paste (think taramasalata) - no, positively not inspiring. Supper, however, tends to be a rather good meal, also, we are fairly hungry as we usually come directly from the gym - and, when you're hungry, paper will taste just fine ... :lol:
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Re: Calories In/Calories Out

#63  Postby CACTUSJACKmankin » May 09, 2011 12:01 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:Exercise does not lose weight. It can even make you heavier but well leaner. Muscle is three times as heavy as fat so turning fat into muscle can increase your weight.
Calorie counting helps me. To me it is logical if you burn more calories than you eat you must lose weight.

Not all exercise is exercise. Aerobic exercise is what will largely burn the most fat and calories, whereas weight training and sit-ups/crunches will mostly tone and build the much heavier muscle. Granted, the two aren't mutually exclusive as aerobic muscles may tone a bit and wight training will burn some fat and calories. Most advertisement for machines that help you do sit-ups and crunches lie about fat burning and spot reduction (which is impossible). So yes the right kind of exercise can help you lose weight.
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Re: Calories In/Calories Out

#64  Postby Apollonius » May 16, 2011 11:37 pm

There is no reason at all to be wary of the keto type (minimal carb) diet. Just because conventional wisdom says "no," it doesn't mean that conventional wisdom is right.

I lost 1/3 of my body weight on a keto diet and my blood work went from awful to excellent. I felt better while doing it. What was the problem with it again!?

Exercise has benefits, but managing weight is NOT one of them. If you want to manage weight, diet is critical.

I kept reading since I started this thread and I think it's making more sense.

Calories in/calories out, at least as far as this idea that a given number of calories is burned or stored, based on simple in/out math, and this drives weight lb for lb, is in fact bullshit.

The reason is insulin. Gary Taubes is basically right. Insulin is the fat storage hormone. It's how fat storage works. Carbs increase insulin, and this is how our bodies store fat. Protein increases insulin too, but along with it come glucagon to balance the fat-storing effects of insulin.

http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/low- ... e-get-fat/
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Re: Calories In/Calories Out

#65  Postby NilsGLindgren » May 17, 2011 5:23 am

Apollonius - I must again point out that the one "natural" (as in, non-pharmacological) way of dealing with insulin resistance is, in fact, physical exercise. I believe I posted relevant articles.
And the problem with the keto diet was that some people (kids, though), died from it.
If you lost weight without problem using the keto diet, and are feeling better, fine. Anecdotal evidence.
I lost weight (current weight 88.5, started in October 2010 at 109) using WeightWatchers with less fat, less refined carbs, and more physical exercise. Anecdotal evidence.
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Re: Calories In/Calories Out

#66  Postby Apollonius » May 19, 2011 3:15 am

Have you read "Why we get fat?" by Taubes?

The number of people that have lost weight and improved health using "keto," which I assume is another name for low carb is huge. It's anecdotal times who-knows-how-many zillion.

It's science. Insulin is a fat storage hormone. Lower insulin, store less fat. Low carb is sound.
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Re: Calories In/Calories Out

#67  Postby irreligionist » May 19, 2011 3:49 am

Apart from cutting out a huge range of foods (and the associated kilojoule content of them), doesn't the keto diet really work over time by reducing appetite and thus kilojoule intake? Thus, calories in/calories out still holds?
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Re: Calories In/Calories Out

#68  Postby bdcarlitosway » May 19, 2011 5:03 am

Did anyone watch "fathead"?

What did you think of it?
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Re: Calories In/Calories Out

#69  Postby NilsGLindgren » May 19, 2011 5:12 am

Apollonius wrote:Have you read "Why we get fat?" by Taubes?


You did not comment on whether you read the articles concerning the influence of physical exercise on insulin resistance. Did you?

Apollonius wrote:The number of people that have lost weight and improved health using "keto," which I assume is another name for low carb is huge. It's anecdotal times who-knows-how-many zillion.


A certain number of persons (perhaps not as many as several zillions?) apparenlty lost weight using the Weight Watchers scheme too. And? This would at best imply that certain diets and regimes agree with and is perceived as helpful by some people, others by others.

Manic Wombat's report on his diet did not appeal to me, I much prefer veggies and fruit. They agree with me and I perceive them as helpful (considering I lost 20 kgs, which, again, is anecdotal evidence).
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Re: Calories In/Calories Out

#70  Postby babel » May 19, 2011 7:07 am

If a diet is giving you a headache and making you dizzy, your body is trying to tell you you're being an ass and should start eating properly.
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Re: Calories In/Calories Out

#71  Postby NilsGLindgren » May 19, 2011 7:50 am

babel wrote:If a diet is giving you a headache and making you dizzy, your body is trying to tell you you're being an ass and should start eating properly.


... or it could be you're drinking to little. Many loose a lot of water while dieting (or during physical exercise), and if they don't replenish, headaches and dizziness will be the typical outcome.
I sometimes go on the scales before and after a set of spin cycling - once, during a particularly long set, I lost 2½ kg despite drinking upwards of 2 liters of water. And that loss is almost only water - the actual loss in glucose, or fat, is no doubt a very small part of it. I suppose it would be possible to calculate it, though ... :ask:
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Re: Calories In/Calories Out

#72  Postby babel » May 19, 2011 9:34 am

NilsGLindgren wrote:
babel wrote:If a diet is giving you a headache and making you dizzy, your body is trying to tell you you're being an ass and should start eating properly.


... or it could be you're drinking to little. Many loose a lot of water while dieting (or during physical exercise), and if they don't replenish, headaches and dizziness will be the typical outcome.
I sometimes go on the scales before and after a set of spin cycling - once, during a particularly long set, I lost 2½ kg despite drinking upwards of 2 liters of water. And that loss is almost only water - the actual loss in glucose, or fat, is no doubt a very small part of it. I suppose it would be possible to calculate it, though ... :ask:

True.
Thanks for the addition. :thumbup:
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Re: Calories In/Calories Out

#73  Postby PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn » May 20, 2011 1:32 am

Apollonius wrote:
It's science. Insulin is a fat storage hormone. Lower insulin, store less fat. Low carb is sound.


but its not..... insulin and glucagon are hormones responsible for maintaining the levels of blood glucose. Insulins primary role is to make the liver/kidneys stop producing glucose, and for various organs to take up glucose whilst its plentiful.

blood glucose levels are supposed to be about 4mM, this is important because too much mucks up osmotic potential and can screw the kidneys up. it also can stick to things, resulting in glycosolated proteins, impaired function of blood vessels - in particular where there are lots of capillaries, hence issues with the retina, liver, kidneys spleen and the extremities.
when they're too low the brain suffers - the brain consumes ONLY glucose, and a lot of it, so shortages lead to hypoglycemia, comas and death (obviously the latter two are at the extreme end)

when you feed the levels of blood glucose go up as its absorbed by the gut, the liver and kidneys are still producing glucose, as the levels of glucose go up, as the concentration of insulin increases, the liver stops gluconeogenesis, and starts storing glucose as glycogen, as do other organs, this replenishes the livers store of glucose, and then fatty acid synthesis (its a catabolic process so the priority is on having energy stores before long term storage) as the sugar high wears off then the liver reverts to gluconeogenesis.

insulin might well stimulate FAS, but its main role is in maintaining homeostasis.

as for low carb, by switching to protein as the main part of the diet you are forcing the metabolic pathways to use fat, as it doesn't want to use protein for fuel. the problem is that without carb input you quickly end up with lots of ketone bodies and acidification of the blood (not good) (not to mention the demands put on the kidneys due to them having to get rid of a lot more nitrogen)

on the other hand whilst calories in ~ calories out might be simplistic, its is fundamentally sound (laws of thermodynamics) and whilst some people may have genetic or medical predispositions for weight gain, they cannot put it on if they dont eat it.
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Re: Calories In/Calories Out

#74  Postby Apollonius » May 21, 2011 9:43 pm

PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn wrote:.
as for low carb, by switching to protein as the main part of the diet you are forcing the metabolic pathways to use fat, as it doesn't want to use protein for fuel. the problem is that without carb input you quickly end up with lots of ketone bodies and acidification of the blood (not good) (not to mention the demands put on the kidneys due to them having to get rid of a lot more nitrogen)

..


I have been low carb since 2007, lost 120 lb, and my blood tests (including kidneys) are better than they have ever been. I can't agree with that at all.
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Re: Calories In/Calories Out

#75  Postby Apollonius » May 21, 2011 9:52 pm

irreligionist wrote:Apart from cutting out a huge range of foods (and the associated kilojoule content of them), doesn't the keto diet really work over time by reducing appetite and thus kilojoule intake? Thus, calories in/calories out still holds?


All this really depends on what you want calories in/calories out to mean.

If you want it to mean "eat more, get heavier," then fine. If that is the case, the whole concept is completely meaningless.

What I have seen across many "expert" diet sites is attempts to quantify weight vs activity and calories in a very simplistic way, and use those numbers for everyone. For example- a lb is X amount of calories, and exercise is X amount of calories per unit time, add the food calories in, and that is all you need to know. If you consider that calories in/calories out, it simply does not work.

It would be like if gravity were different for every single person, and people jump off a building and hit the ground at different times. Then someone comes in and says "what goes up must come down-that is all you need to know." yeah, but big frickin deal! Why does everyone hit the ground at a different time?
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Re: Calories In/Calories Out

#76  Postby Apollonius » May 23, 2011 8:19 pm

I'm still working google over on this topic to see what is out there. I found a few things that I think are worth reading.

This first one is a trainer/bodybuilder that I don't always agree with, but his blog will make you think. In this one, he really goes off on the calories in/calories out thing-

Calories-in, Calories-out: Stop the Nonsense

I’ve known competitors who became so calories-balanced-obsessed that they cut broccoli spears or green beans in half so it measures “right” on the scale. This is what the myth of the calories-in, calories-out logic leads to. And it’s too bad because it’s much ado about nothing. It’s a lot of mental stress over an illusion of control that simply does not exist. But the calorie balance emphasis “seems” like it exists because the industry uses it with a focus entirely in the “immediate” realm of time. But there are three realms of time the body adjusts for: the immediate, the residual, and the cumulative...

http://scottabel.blogspot.com/2011/03/c ... -myth.html



I also like to read this next site. It's one of the Paleo type sites, but a little different. Some of the readers are pro-low-carb (keto) some not so much. The forum participants are very, very well informed, and they don't always agree-

It is safe to say that calories in/calories out is a useless and discredited way of explaining body weight. It neglects the chemistry of fat storage, which according to GCBG, WWGF, and much known research, really depends (for the most part) on insulin, the fat storage hormone. It's not that simple, but that's the main driver.

Taubes made one example in WWGF of animals that store energy for the winter. It's not like they eat like crazy before the winter. Hormones are key. If nature worked on calories in/calories out, animals and humans would pretty much have to eat every day, at a steady rate, and there would be no way to explain hibernation or survival in times of scarcity.

i was thinking today that this concept needs to be replaced. Has it been replaced already? If not, what should take its place?

If one wanted to have a way of calculating what weight is going to be based on what one eats and how much activity they do, it would also need to take into account the chemistry of what they eat, and hormonal/metabolic status of the individual. It seems to get complicated pretty quick...

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread30583.html



There was a response on this thread that has a very good way to calculate energy in/out.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-lo ... ation.html

So, if you must have a calculation to show in/out and how it works, the last link is the best thing I have seen. It's not as simple as most trainers or idiot dietitians say it is. They are way off. Still it does not explain the huge differences in people based on what kinds of calories they take in. Living off of sugar/carbs vs living off of a balanced diet will result in different weight even if calories are exactly the same. So the in/out theory still has problems.
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