Can Hypnosis really cause this?

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Re: Can Hypnosis really cause this?

#221  Postby The_Metatron » Sep 04, 2013 10:17 am

Weaver wrote:
lucek wrote:And thanks to the power of conditioning a good chunk of you just started to sing.
But enough of this derail I'm out. i'll keep an eye on this tread. You know how every skeptic has their one. Yeah this is my one pseudo science I wish was true.

I'm with you. If I could make other people blister and bleed with the power of suggestion, or the power of my mind, I wouldn't keep guns and knives and swords and other implements of mayhem in my house.
...

I AM Skepdickus!

Check out Hack's blog, too. He writes good.
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Re: Can Hypnosis really cause this?

#222  Postby laklak » Sep 04, 2013 6:11 pm

BlackBart wrote:
No bleeding from orifices though.


That happens later, after the roofies kick in.
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The sky is falling! The sky is falling! - Chicken Little
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Re: Can Hypnosis really cause this?

#223  Postby BlackBart » Sep 04, 2013 8:16 pm

laklak wrote:
BlackBart wrote:
No bleeding from orifices though.


That happens later, after the roofies kick in.


You old romantic smoothie, you. :lollypop:
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The Placebo/Nocebo effect.

#224  Postby MarkgaB5 » Sep 16, 2013 12:41 am

''mind over matter'' put into action. the placebo/nocebo effect is taken very seriously in the medical world, even though it literally says that expectation causes a strage manipulation of matter in the body; in some cases even down to the shrinking of tumours. the nocebo effect is also strong; in some cases a patient consumed many pills and then his blood pressure went dangerously low. when he was told they were fake pills he went back to normal. this is one of the only cases of a paranormal phenomenon taken seriously in the medical field (perhaps outside of OBE's or NDE's). i suppose if one expected to have a third arm grow, thatd happen to, but no studies are done on that yet.

so far noones explained how a positive or negative expectation causes the effects aside from this single phrase; ''mind over matter''. does that mean we have telekinetic abilities in our body? it seems odd that even scientists take this phenomenon seriously yet theres much evidence to support its effects. randis 1 mil?
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Re: The Placebo/Nocebo effect.

#225  Postby Paul Almond » Sep 16, 2013 12:46 am

MarkgaB5 wrote:''mind over matter'' put into action. the placebo/nocebo effect is taken very seriously in the medical world, even though it literally says that expectation causes a strage manipulation of matter in the body; in some cases even down to the shrinking of tumours. the nocebo effect is also strong; in some cases a patient consumed many pills and then his blood pressure went dangerously low. when he was told they were fake pills he went back to normal. this is one of the only cases of a paranormal phenomenon taken seriously in the medical field (perhaps outside of OBE's or NDE's). i suppose if one expected to have a third arm grow, thatd happen to, but no studies are done on that yet.

Are you a sockpuppet of Arthur Methoxy?
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Re: The Placebo/Nocebo effect.

#226  Postby MarkgaB5 » Sep 16, 2013 12:48 am

i have no idea who that person is or what youre talking about. you didnt even answer my question. im asking HOW positive/negative expectation causes the effects.
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Re: The Placebo/Nocebo effect.

#227  Postby Onyx8 » Sep 16, 2013 1:33 am

You first. Grow yourself a third arm. You know: science.
The problem with fantasies is you can't really insist that everyone else believes in yours, the other problem with fantasies is that most believers of fantasies eventually get around to doing exactly that.
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Re: The Placebo/Nocebo effect.

#228  Postby MarkgaB5 » Sep 16, 2013 1:34 am

im sure science will accept and research it if mentioned, because the placebo effect is accepted by science despite being paranormal.
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Re: The Placebo/Nocebo effect.

#229  Postby Onyx8 » Sep 16, 2013 1:36 am

Grow a third arm, impress science.
The problem with fantasies is you can't really insist that everyone else believes in yours, the other problem with fantasies is that most believers of fantasies eventually get around to doing exactly that.
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Re: The Placebo/Nocebo effect.

#230  Postby felltoearth » Sep 16, 2013 1:45 am

The placebo effect is not a paranormal phenomenon.
"Walla Walla Bonga!" — Witticism
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Re: The Placebo/Nocebo effect.

#231  Postby MarkgaB5 » Sep 16, 2013 1:50 am

then how does expectation magically cure cancerous tumours or ease pain? or even cause rapid loss of blood pressure?
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Re: The Placebo/Nocebo effect.

#232  Postby Shagz » Sep 16, 2013 1:57 am

There's nothing "magical" about the placebo effect. It's very well known by science that it's caused by tiny, hairy gremlins living in your ears, whispering things to your brain. "You feel nothing..."

Don't believe me? Try dropping some water in your ear and see what happens.
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Re: The Placebo/Nocebo effect.

#233  Postby SafeAsMilk » Sep 16, 2013 2:18 am

MarkgaB5 wrote:then how does expectation magically cure cancerous tumours or ease pain? or even cause rapid loss of blood pressure?

Mark, have you ever been in a Turkish prison?
"They call it the American dream, because you have to be asleep to believe it." -- George Carlin
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Re: The Placebo/Nocebo effect.

#234  Postby Cito di Pense » Sep 16, 2013 2:25 am

What about the 'спасибо' эффект?

This is the deep sense of gratitude one feels in wearing high-quality hosiery out in public.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: The Placebo/Nocebo effect.

#235  Postby felltoearth » Sep 16, 2013 2:33 am

MarkgaB5 wrote:then how does expectation magically cure cancerous tumours or ease pain? or even cause rapid loss of blood pressure?


Why have studies shown that a patient's knowledge that people are praying for him actually has a negative effect?
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Re: The Placebo/Nocebo effect.

#236  Postby laklak » Sep 16, 2013 2:42 am

SafeAsMilk wrote:
MarkgaB5 wrote:then how does expectation magically cure cancerous tumours or ease pain? or even cause rapid loss of blood pressure?

Mark, have you ever been in a Turkish prison?


Mark, have you ever been in a men's locker room?
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. - Mark Twain
The sky is falling! The sky is falling! - Chicken Little
I never go without my dinner. No one ever does, except vegetarians and people like that - Oscar Wilde
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Re: The Placebo/Nocebo effect.

#237  Postby igorfrankensteen » Sep 16, 2013 2:51 am

Actually, at least some examples of placebo effect have been explained without the need for the paranormal.

Obvious ones include any situation wherein the chemical and other aspects of high stress play a part in the situation: when someone believes they have taken medicine that will help them, they will tend to calm down, and the elements of their difficulties that are due to stress will be reduced. If someone loses "faith," and the symptoms worsen, that isn't magic either...that's the natural result of the return of stress.

Many "miraculous" cures or improvements are in situations where the disease itself isn't that thoroughly understood, too. When you don't completely understand what causes or exacerbates a condition, the fact that you aren't sure what made it get better loses it's magical glow somewhat.

It's even possible that some things that are done, or are given as placebos, do actually help, though why they do isn't recognized.

I have many times had a Nocebo effect on myself. When I really don't want to do something that I have committed to, I can hype myself into thinking I'm coming down with the flu, very easily. I get a mild fever, joint pain, indigestion, diarrhea, and nausea. The moment the task I want to avoid is gone from my path, I feel much better.

There's no reason to think "telekinesis" with this. No "tele" is required, when what we are effecting is things that are INSIDE our own bodies, after all. Now, if my fake flu symptoms caused my remote control to float into my hand, THAT would be telekinesis. But me clenching my teeth, refusing to breath properly, pinching my own nerve endings with my own muscles, and dumping extra chemicals into my own stomach, is NOT tele-anything.

This doesn't mean I am averse to all "magical" possibilities. I'm just EXTREMELY careful about what I allow to be listed as "magic," because I have seen far too many cases where belief in magic results in making oneself vulnerable to thieves, and all manner of disgusting, amoral and immoral people.
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Re: The Placebo/Nocebo effect.

#238  Postby Thommo » Sep 16, 2013 3:08 am

MarkgaB5 wrote:then how does expectation magically cure cancerous tumours or ease pain? or even cause rapid loss of blood pressure?


It doesn't.
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Re: The Placebo/Nocebo effect.

#239  Postby Cito di Pense » Sep 16, 2013 3:09 am

igorfrankensteen wrote:When I really don't want to do something that I have committed to...


Well, you could really stop right there, and ask about the antecedents of that. I don't see any basis for lumping that sort of thing in with the nocebo effect. The endocrine system and the neurological system often end up feeding one another forward and back.

The placebo/nocebo effect looks like a name given to something incompletely understood, but (as you admit) all natural. That people feel comforted by religious charlatanry is beyond question. Going beyond that to ask the questions about the occasional excessive costs of trying to make life easier for yourself is where all the argument leads.

People are notoriously adept at hiding stuff from themselves; it's one of the varieties of duplicity.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: The Placebo/Nocebo effect.

#240  Postby BlackBart » Sep 16, 2013 6:01 am

Why is this in theism? As the OP has had the answer patiently explained to him in a previous thread, can this be moved to Social and Fun? Ta.
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