Climate Change Denial

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Re: Climate Change Denial

#61  Postby Macdoc » Dec 07, 2012 12:34 am

And I won't back away from the statement that a lot of climate change proponents seem to project an image that they honestly believe that the Earth is finished with climate changes and is now a stable unchanging system.


such as? not one single climate scientist I am aware of would ever make that kind of claim so to defend your statement you must produce some evidence.

Colder areas will always be around as we live on a tilted planet and parts of it get no sun at all for a long period of time.
If a blocking high settles in - these highs are becoming more frequent as changes occur in the Arctic, then the cold deepens and may even set a record for a particular location affected. A blocking high is what steered Sandy away from the open ocean and inland.

The Southern Continent and Southern Ocean are unique weather systems and the continent generates it's own climate due to the amount of ice.
It too is being affected but slowly and in some cases the centre of the continent the ice mass is increasing due to more snow fall which is a direct result of AGW ....warmer air over a warmer ocean = more moisture to precipitate out as snow and eventually form glaciers.

But the NET mass of the continent continues to fall and the rate of falling is accelerating.

Australia will be only marginally affected by the changes in the Southern Continent but is affected by the change in winds and currents in the Southern Ocean and in fact it impacts the entire planet in some ways not fully understood and may to a degree act as a buffer to rapid change.

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/new ... hern-ocean

But Australia itself is very subject to shifting climate bands as it spans temperate to tropical......dry to rain forest.
Easily seen in the record is a drying south and a wetter north and a shift in rainfall patterns even tho in some cases the rainfall may remain the same amount - it comes at a different time of year which is problematic for agriculture.

Trying to deny AGW at this point in time is simply ludicrous. You're smarter than that.....quit being so stubborn about it. :coffee:

How to cope will, region by region, present many policy issues to be debated for decades to come.

Human activity both from land use and GHG has become the major driver of climate change instead of the normal slow orbital change that would have led into an ice age perhaps 10-15,000 years out.
That drift changed some 300 years back as industrialization took hold and has far out shadowed the orbital forcing towards a cooler climate regime.
The next ice age is on hold or cancelled perhaps as long as 100,000 years as that's how long it takes for our carbon emitted now to clear out of the atmosphere entirely tho the great bulk of it clears in a century or somewhat less.

Currently the greatest difficulty is in assessing the roles of other players such as S02 and carbon black and methane which are all shorter lived but in the case of methane 20 x more potent and in the case of S02 actually cools the planet.
Carbon black has a mixed role.
With the growth of industry in China and India - S02 and carbon black have soared.

With the heating of the Arctic Tundra/Taiga methane is being released more rapidly and that is the 900 lb gorilla given how much is stored there in C02 and methane.
If that feedback gains traction ...and there is evidence that it has began.
Kiss the climate humans ever knew goodbye.

This is a very conservative report

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?release=2012-110

the outliers and many serious climate scientists understand how rapid and severe the shift could be.

High September 2012 methane levels
An earlier post reported average hourly methane measurements as high as 2500 ppb recorded at Barrow, Alaska. Sadly, hardly any further in situ measurements have been publicly released from Barrow since, as illustrated by the image below.


http://arctic-news.blogspot.ca/2012/09/ ... evels.html

this charts the consequences of a large scale methane release in the Arctic.

http://arctic-news.blogspot.ca/p/potent ... lease.html

Arctic methane sets global warming alarm bells ringing

Paul Hudson | 15:11 UK time, Friday, 25 May 2012
Research published this week which identifies thousands of sites in the Arctic where methane gas is being released into the atmosphere could have serious ramifications for global warming.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/paulhudson/2 ... -war.shtml
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Lord Monckton thrown out of Doha talks

#62  Postby UndercoverElephant » Dec 07, 2012 12:36 pm

The mainstream news is busily ignoring Doha.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwjC-MMKwRY


Published on Dec 7, 2012

Posing as a delegate from Myanmar, the climate skeptic, Lord Monckton, spoke at the UN climate change negotiations in Doha, Qatar. The impostor was later expelled from the conference.



"Despite all the scientific warnings, we have seen no climate change", he says. Hmmm.....
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Re: Lord Monckton thrown out of Doha talks

#63  Postby Teague » Dec 07, 2012 3:25 pm

Then he's a fucking idiot.
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Re: Lord Monckton thrown out of Doha talks

#64  Postby UndercoverElephant » Dec 07, 2012 3:50 pm

Teague wrote:Then he's a fucking idiot.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christophe ... _Brenchley


Christopher Walter Monckton, 3rd Viscount Monckton of Brenchley (born 14 February 1952) is a British politician, public speaker,[1] hereditary peer, and former newspaper editor. He has worked for The Universe, The Sunday Telegraph, Today and Evening Standard newspapers. Formerly a member of the Conservative Party, he served in Conservative Central Office and worked for Margaret Thatcher's Number 10 Policy Unit during the 1980s. In 2009 he joined the UK Independence Party, where he served as Deputy Leader of the Party under Lord Pearson of Rannoch and subsequently as the Head of the Policy Unit under Nigel Farage.


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Previously in 2008 Monckton had appeared in another BBC production "Earth: The Climate Wars" that he accused of making him look like a "potty peer".[52] Monckton went to the High Court to gain an injunction against the "Meet the sceptics" broadcast, complaining of breach of contract and requesting a ruling that his three minute or 500 word rebuttal should be added to the programme. He did not obtain the injunction, the judge ruled that Monckton's interpretation of clarity in the contract was incorrect, and the "balance of justice" favoured refusal of the injunction.[53]

In July and August 2011 Monckton toured Australia and New Zealand, becoming the first climate sceptic to be allowed to address the weekly nationally-televised meeting of the Press Club in Canberra. The format was that of a debate against Dr. Dennis, the director of the Australia Institute. Roy Morgan Research conducted a continuous opinion tracking survey during the hour-long debate, and declared Monckton the winner, saying he had converted 9% of Australians to the view that climate fears had been exaggerated.[54]

On 6 December, 2012 Monckton took Myanmar's chair at the COP18 Climate Change Conference at Doha and made a short speech attacking the idea of man-made climate change. He was escorted from the building and given a lifetime ban from attending UN climate talks. It is believed that Monckton claimed that there has been no global warming over the last sixteen years, and thus the science should be reviewed.[55]


"Fucking idiot" probably doesn't go far enough.
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Re: Lord Monckton thrown out of Doha talks

#65  Postby iamthereforeithink » Dec 07, 2012 3:56 pm

UndercoverElephant wrote:"Despite all the scientific warnings, we have seen no climate change", he says. Hmmm.....


Except that we have? But yeah, its December, and Lord Monckton hasn't experienced summer temperatures in London yet, so obviously climate change is not happening :roll:
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Re: Lord Monckton thrown out of Doha talks

#66  Postby Precambrian Rabbi » Dec 07, 2012 4:28 pm

He's a cock.

Potholer54 has a whole series of - typically excellent - videos debunking his nonsense, which are well worth checking out.
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Re: Lord Monckton thrown out of Doha talks

#67  Postby Pulsar » Dec 07, 2012 4:32 pm

I hope they gave him a one-way ticket to Myanmar.
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Re: Lord Monckton thrown out of Doha talks

#68  Postby FACT-MAN-2 » Dec 07, 2012 4:33 pm

Teague wrote:Then he's a fucking idiot.

He's much worse than that, he's a charlatan and a fool and a dope all rolled into one.

He was invited to testify before a US Senate Committee by his American cohort Senator Inhof of Oklahoma where Democrat Senators tore him to shreds, mainly by asking him if he'd ever published any climate science in a peer-reviewed journal (he has not) and questioning his claim of being a member of the British House of Lords (he is not). I don't think he's appeared on the US stage or in US media since.

The stunt he tried to pull at the UNFCC's COP-18 conference in Doha is typical of him and his kind.

He was given an opportunity to speak at the COP-16 climate conference in Copenhagan in 2009 but youthful protestors were ready for him and proceeded to shout him down, at which he accused them of being "Nazis in the finest tradition of Hitler Youth." His speech turned into a melee.

It's a sign of progress that he was given the boot at Doha.
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Re: Lord Monckton thrown out of Doha talks

#69  Postby I'm With Stupid » Dec 07, 2012 7:03 pm

He's fucking insane:

In a 1987 article for The American Spectator entitled "AIDS: A British View", he argued that "there is only one way to stop AIDS. That is to screen the entire population regularly and to quarantine all carriers of the disease for life. Every member of the population should be blood-tested every month ... all those found to be infected with the virus, even if only as carriers, should be isolated compulsorily, immediately, and permanently."


It's a pretty sound argument for his own permanent quarantine and isolation.
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Re: Lord Monckton thrown out of Doha talks

#70  Postby UndercoverElephant » Dec 07, 2012 8:21 pm


He's fucking insane


Well, turning up at a UN conference and pretending to be a delegate from Burma (when you look like that???) is hardly a good advertisement for climate change skepticism, is it? He was always going to get found out, and end up looking like a total prick. So either he's so stupid that he didn't think he'd get caught, or he's so stupid that he doesn't understand that this leads to him looking like a total prick. Or maybe he's just completely insane.

Quite a lot of what remains of the British aristocracy are insane.
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Re: Lord Monckton thrown out of Doha talks

#71  Postby Emmeline » Dec 07, 2012 8:27 pm

UndercoverElephant wrote:
Teague wrote:Then he's a fucking idiot.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christophe ... _Brenchley


Image

That's what 1000 years of inbreeding does.

:lol:



On 6 December, 2012 Monckton took Myanmar's chair at the COP18 Climate Change Conference at Doha and made a short speech attacking the idea of man-made climate change. He was escorted from the building and given a lifetime ban from attending UN climate talks. It is believed that Monckton claimed that there has been no global warming over the last sixteen years, and thus the science should be reviewed.[55]

:clap:

I wonder if his extended family also think he's a fucking idiot - his sister Rosa's husband is Dominic Lawson who seems to be much more scientific minded.
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Re: Climate Change Denial

#72  Postby johnbrandt » Dec 09, 2012 11:15 pm

Sea level rises?
http://theage.domain.com.au/real-estate-news/house-deal-on-historic-beach-20110310-1bpq1.html
Nope. Can't see the "flooded coastal areas" we were promised to be seeing by now. Can anyone please find some pictures or news items about areas that are being inundated as we were told we'd be seeing by now?

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/sea-level-rises-are-slowing-tidal-gauge-records-show/story-fn59niix-1226099350056

Of course, now it's promised as being "by the year 2100". However, twenty or more years ago we were assured that in the early years of the 21st century we would be seeing flooding of coastal estates in places like the southern areas of my state, as well as flooding of coastal islands on the Barrier Reef.

Must be really annoying when it doesn't happen...but if you push the predictions far enough out into the future, then you don't have to worry about being made a fool of when it just doesn't happen...

Another quick question...has anyone ever honestly explained why it was changed from "Global Warming" to "Climate Change"...? Could it be because the world hasn't warmed in the last 14 years...? Gotta call it something trendy to keep sucking the pockets of the populace and industry dry with new taxes and keep them in fear so they will just take whatever restrictions they are asked to contribute.

It's hard not to deny things when for example we here in Australia are told to cut back, do without, increase taxation to fix the problem, and pay more for energy (one metal work business near us is facing a doubling in it's power bill this year and will probably close), and are told we are "the worst carbon emitter in the world (per head of population)!!" when that is blatantly a lie.
Sorry, in real terms of amount produced, China is far and away number one in the world, with the USA putting out just over half of what China does per year. Forget the ridiculous "per capita/per head of population" figures that skew it to make countries with tiny populations like Australia look bad...
Here's the figures by amount produced...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ions_estimates
And if you do prefer the "per head of population", then once again we are being lied to when they say "Australia is the worst per capita polluter"...look at this list...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ons_per_capita
We're not number one...we're number eleven...behind such economic monsters such as Trinidad & Tobago, Aruba, Luxembourg, and just below the Falkland Islands...that should tell you what a toss dividing pollution by head of population is as a measurement...

China can do what it likes with renewable energy...the fact remains that they are building dozens upon dozens of brand new coal fired power stations...commissioning a new one about every week or so amazingly enough.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion/china-and-indias-pursuit-of-coal-fired-power-smashes-the-rhetoric/story-e6frfifo-1226516968611
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/nov/20/coal-plants-world-resources-institute
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-09-09/asian-water-scarcity-risked-as-coal-fired-power-embraced
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=india-has-big-plans-for-burning-coal
Care to explain why tiny countries like Australia simply must spend billions to change our ways when these countries don't have to do anything...?

If global warming is such a world wide issue, then why does anyone get off scott free like the "developing" world (and anyone who still calls China "developing" in the same breath as poor African countries is mad)?
If it truly "threatens all mankind" then doesn't everyone have to chip and and cut back...? If not, then we know it's just a wealth transfer system to tax and restrict prosperous western countries and funnel our dollars through bodies like the UN to where ever it eventually goes to..
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Re: Lord Monckton thrown out of Doha talks

#73  Postby Calilasseia » Dec 09, 2012 11:28 pm

Am I the only person here to look at his photo and think "shit, it's Alan B'Stard!" ???
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Re: Lord Monckton thrown out of Doha talks

#74  Postby UndercoverElephant » Dec 09, 2012 11:39 pm

Calilasseia wrote:Am I the only person here to look at his photo and think "shit, it's Alan B'Stard!" ???


It has the same smirk. Same genus. :)
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Re: Lord Monckton thrown out of Doha talks

#75  Postby Calilasseia » Dec 09, 2012 11:54 pm

Here you go, for those unfamiliar with the character in question ...

Separated At Birth Lord Monckton Alan BStard.jpg
Separated At Birth Lord Monckton Alan BStard.jpg (249.23 KiB) Viewed 4145 times
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Re: Climate Change Denial

#76  Postby UndercoverElephant » Dec 09, 2012 11:56 pm

Oh boy.

johnbrandt wrote:Sea level rises?
http://theage.domain.com.au/real-estate-news/house-deal-on-historic-beach-20110310-1bpq1.html
Nope. Can't see the "flooded coastal areas" we were promised to be seeing by now. Can anyone please find some pictures or news items about areas that are being inundated as we were told we'd be seeing by now?


Image


Of course, now it's promised as being "by the year 2100".


Nobody expected to see major rises in sea level yet. So far we are talking centimetres. Why would anyone care about the lack of visible sea level rises (anywhere apart from very low lying islands) when the poles are melting faster than anybody, including the most pessimistic climate scientists, predicted?


Must be really annoying when it doesn't happen...


Yes. It must be really annoying for the denialists now that their prediction of no climate change hasn't happened. :roll:


Another quick question...has anyone ever honestly explained why it was changed from "Global Warming" to "Climate Change"...?


Because some parts of the world might get colder.


Could it be because the world hasn't warmed in the last 14 years...?


No.


Gotta call it something trendy to keep sucking the pockets of the populace and industry dry with new taxes and keep them in fear so they will just take whatever restrictions they are asked to contribute.


Do you also believe the moon landings were faked?


It's hard not to deny things when for example we here in Australia are told to cut back, do without, increase taxation to fix the problem, and pay more for energy (one metal work business near us is facing a doubling in it's power bill this year and will probably close), and are told we are "the worst carbon emitter in the world (per head of population)!!" when that is blatantly a lie.


PEAK OIL


If global warming is such a world wide issue, then why does anyone get off scott free like the "developing" world


Image


If it truly "threatens all mankind" then doesn't everyone have to chip and and cut back...?


Oh boy. :confused:


If not, then we know it's just a wealth transfer system to tax and restrict prosperous western countries and funnel our dollars through bodies like the UN to where ever it eventually goes to..


http://dollarcollapse.com/
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Re: Climate Change Denial

#77  Postby Macdoc » Dec 10, 2012 12:02 am

John your whinging is pathetic.
Can I suggest a flat earth group - you might find some fellow travellers..... :nono:

Hopelessly wilfully blind barely covers it.
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Re: Climate Change Denial

#78  Postby Just A Theory » Dec 10, 2012 2:06 am

johnbrandt wrote:Sea level rises?
http://theage.domain.com.au/real-estate-news/house-deal-on-historic-beach-20110310-1bpq1.html
Nope. Can't see the "flooded coastal areas" we were promised to be seeing by now. Can anyone please find some pictures or news items about areas that are being inundated as we were told we'd be seeing by now?


No one can find something that doesn't exist John and no one was predicting any significant coastal flooding by this year.

Of course, now it's promised as being "by the year 2100". However, twenty or more years ago we were assured that in the early years of the 21st century we would be seeing flooding of coastal estates in places like the southern areas of my state, as well as flooding of coastal islands on the Barrier Reef.


Do you have a source for this? Because, from where I'm sitting, it smells like bullshit.

Must be really annoying when it doesn't happen...but if you push the predictions far enough out into the future, then you don't have to worry about being made a fool of when it just doesn't happen...


The only thing that you've demonstrated so far in this post is that straw men are especially flammable.

Another quick question...has anyone ever honestly explained why it was changed from "Global Warming" to "Climate Change"...?


Because the issue is more complex than just warming. Rainfall patterns will change, extreme weather events will change in frequency and intensity and some areas of the world may actually get colder.

Could it be because the world hasn't warmed in the last 14 years...?


I've already linked the graph from the peer-reviewed scientific literature that completely destroys this claim. Your repeated assertions are therefore completely full of shit.

Gotta call it something trendy to keep sucking the pockets of the populace and industry dry with new taxes and keep them in fear so they will just take whatever restrictions they are asked to contribute.


Given that the reality of the effect of CO2 on the greenhouse type warming of the planet has been known since 1896 and that James Hansen made his seminal report to US Congress in 1988, your idiotic rant on the "trendiness" of climate change is demonstrably ridiculous.

It's hard not to deny things when for example we here in Australia are told to cut back, do without, increase taxation to fix the problem, and pay more for energy (one metal work business near us is facing a doubling in it's power bill this year and will probably close), and are told we are "the worst carbon emitter in the world (per head of population)!!" when that is blatantly a lie.


I draw your attention to the report of the European Commission which has investigated these matters. Their graph on page 3 quite clearly shows Australia as the highest per capita emitter.

Your humble apology is graciously accepted.

Additionally, one wonders how the carbon tax could cause the power bill to double. Could you please explain how that works? Given that the UQ study shows that an average of 8.9% increase is what is expected?

Sorry, in real terms of amount produced, China is far and away number one in the world, with the USA putting out just over half of what China does per year. Forget the ridiculous "per capita/per head of population" figures that skew it to make countries with tiny populations like Australia look bad...
Here's the figures by amount produced...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ions_estimates
And if you do prefer the "per head of population", then once again we are being lied to when they say "Australia is the worst per capita polluter"...look at this list...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ons_per_capita
We're not number one...we're number eleven...behind such economic monsters such as Trinidad & Tobago, Aruba, Luxembourg, and just below the Falkland Islands...that should tell you what a toss dividing pollution by head of population is as a measurement...


The Wikipedia article sources a 2009 report, I've sourced a 2011. Please try to stay with the times.

China can do what it likes with renewable energy...the fact remains that they are building dozens upon dozens of brand new coal fired power stations...commissioning a new one about every week or so amazingly enough.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion/china-and-indias-pursuit-of-coal-fired-power-smashes-the-rhetoric/story-e6frfifo-1226516968611
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/nov/20/coal-plants-world-resources-institute
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-09-09/asian-water-scarcity-risked-as-coal-fired-power-embraced
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=india-has-big-plans-for-burning-coal
Care to explain why tiny countries like Australia simply must spend billions to change our ways when these countries don't have to do anything...?


Because tiny countries like Australia (and the other basket of modern countries that are the product of the Industrial Revolution) got to the economic pinnacle they did because of emissions during that Industrial Revolution. China is having its own version of that AND they're committing to be greener than what we did.

So we have a choice. We can either throw billions of people under the proverbial bus or we can use a small % of our GDP to help redress the pollution that enabled us to have that GDP in the first place.
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Re: Climate Change Denial

#79  Postby Macdoc » Dec 10, 2012 2:48 am

John forgets his heavily subsidized coal industry does not take responsibility for the downstream impacts of coal. If they did - they would not be competitive and John would join the unemployed.

There is no moral ground to sanction China in building its civilization the way the first world did.

Despite that - they lead in renewables and have a higher emissions standards for their cars than North America.

You've been told a hundred times of more that sea level is a long term but unstoppable consequence.

Unfortunately the long term moves in a shorter time frame especially on the East Coast of the US.

You've not supported a single claim you've made. - stop wasting peoples time. Your view is nonsense - you probably know that and are just shit disturbing out of habit.

The right now consequences are extreme weather and serious changes in the Arctic not all of which are negative for Canada and Russia.

Not much gain for Australia tho some areas might benefit from more rain.....and some - too much rain.
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Re: Lord Monckton thrown out of Doha talks

#80  Postby xtraordinaryevidence » Dec 10, 2012 4:11 am

Vyvyan: No, I just don't understand - how? Was she unconscious?

Rick: What Vyvyan - do I detect a little spark of jealousy?

Vyvyan: Ha! I'm not jealous! I find the idea of spending a night with you completely revolting!
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