Critique on Calilasseia's "The Emergence Of Life On Earth"

Anything that doesn't fit anywhere else below.

Moderators: Calilasseia, DarthHelmet86, Onyx8

Re: Critique on Calilasseia's "The Emergence Of Life On Eart

#41  Postby rainbow » Mar 05, 2010 3:24 pm

OgreMkV wrote:
BBTW: (this took about 15 seconds on google by putting in the words "prebiotic phospholipid" Try doing some research before spouting off about things you don't understand.



There is no need to make a personal attack out of this. Can we keep the discussion on a civil basis?

Thank you for pointing to the paper:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v266/n5597/abs/266078a0.html Synthesis of phospholipids and membranes in prebiotic conditions
W. R. HARGREAVES, S. J. MULVIHILL & D. W. DEAMER
Department of Zoology, University of California, Davis, California 95616
IT is generally agreed that stable membranes were prerequisite to the assembly of the earliest self-replicating systems1−4. Phospholipids, which are ubiquitous in biological membranes and which self-assemble in aqueous environments into stable lipid bilayers and vesicles4, are obvious candidates for prebiotic membrane components. We report here the abiotic synthesis of various lipids, including membranogenic phospholipids.


Do you have a link to the entire paper, rather than the abstract?

If it does in fact show that phospholipids did exist on the prebiotic earth, I'll be happy to retract my statement.
Fair enough?
Kill the Wise One!
http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/155419

"Það er ekki til betri tími en núna til að fresta"
User avatar
rainbow
Banned User
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Señor Moderato
Posts: 6903

Mozambique (mz)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Critique on Calilasseia's "The Emergence Of Life On Eart

#42  Postby Spearthrower » Mar 05, 2010 3:43 pm

RPizzle wrote:Wait, didn't rainbow say in a thread moons ago that he was a chemist or had a degree in chemistry?

Edit: I could be wrong though.



Yes, but this is the internet - rainbow might be Father George Coyne, for all we know.

It's a wonder how one would go about getting a degree with no understanding of how chemical reactions occur though. :dunno:
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 21866
Age: 42
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: Critique on Calilasseia's "The Emergence Of Life On Eart

#43  Postby RPizzle » Mar 05, 2010 3:46 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
RPizzle wrote:Wait, didn't rainbow say in a thread moons ago that he was a chemist or had a degree in chemistry?

Edit: I could be wrong though.



Yes, but this is the internet - rainbow might be Father George Coyne, for all we know.

It's a wonder how one would go about getting a degree with no understanding of how chemical reactions occur though. :dunno:


Yeah, I just found the on one of the RDF threads about replicators.

rainbow wrote:As a humble Chemist...


http://forum.richarddawkins.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=97990&start=159

I do have to say though, I've never met a chemist quite like him.
Last edited by RPizzle on Mar 05, 2010 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
RPizzle
 
Posts: 390

Print view this post

Re: Critique on Calilasseia's "The Emergence Of Life On Eart

#44  Postby OgreMkV » Mar 05, 2010 3:47 pm

rainbow wrote:
OgreMkV wrote:rainbow,

I'm not sure what you're driving at here. You seem intent on picking apart every little bit.


Clearly you don't understand the meaning of a 'Critique'. The definition is available on the internet if you're not sure.

I will however try to explain it to you in my own words:

It is an evaluation of another work, not necessarily critical. It does however examine in detail the arguments presented and offers a comment on them.
It is NOT intended as argument for another point of view. If I wish to present an alternative Thesis, I've done this elsewhere.


You may be evauluating Cali's work. However, Cali has presented a summary of those 79 odd research papers. So basically, you're critiquing someone's summary of others work. That's not very useful, but you are free to continue.

Just curious, why didn't you choose to respond to any of the actual points that I made about your critique?

You keep on showing why Cali was wrong and I'll keep on showing why your critique is wrong.

Since we're going on in that direction:

rainbow wrote:
t is rather unclear what is meant by 'synthesisable'. If it means that some of the steps have been shown to be possible by laboratory experiments, then it is entirely correct.


If you don't know what a word means, then I suggest you look it up (as you have suggested that I do). Or better yet pull down the actual paper and read what it said... I suspect the context is pretty important here.

rainbow wrote:
What it certainly not the case, is that it is possible to set up a reactor set to prebiotic conditions, and then have any measurable yield of RNA.


Again, you miss the entire point of these papers. I'll type slowly...

These papers are intended to show that a specific series of reactions are possible or not under certain conditions. If they are possible, then certain hypotheses will be supported or rejected. If they are not possible, then certain hypotheses will be supported or rejected.

No one, ever, has claimed that if you do 'these things' you will create life in a jar.

rainbow wrote:
Of course the term 'self-replicating species of RNA molecules' needs a bit of explanation. This doesn't mean as it might be assumed that these RNA molecules will simply copy themselves if left in a solution of prebiotic soup.


Hmmm... putting words in the mouth of the scientists. You claim to state what this means (or doesn't mean), yet you have no evidence to support your assertion.

What is known is that these RNAs can self-replicate. If they could form in the first place, then there were some precursor (remember that discussion) molecules. Since the precursors molecules are based in chemistry, then conditions to form one will be sufficent to form many.

Remember that a certain 5 nucleotide RNA has a mass of 1725 amu. So that means that 1 gram of the RNA contains 6.023 x 10^20 of these RNA molecules. If you have one, then you have plenty.

rainbow wrote:
They can make copies of themselves if they are fed with high concentrations of nucleotides under the right conditions and purity.


Yes, it's called an experiment. It's used to determine if a certain reaction is possible. We use certain concentrations so that we can speed up the reaction to something we can observe in our lifetime. OTOH, just because that concentration or material is not present doesn't mean that the reaction does not happen. It may happen much slower, but it can happen which is the whole point of the exercise.

You consistantly misrepresent (or misunderstand, I'm not sure which or which is worse) these efforts in order to discredit them.

I predict that when scientists put all the information they've gained over the last few decades into practice and let an experiment run for a year or so and the end result is self-replicating RNA in a lipid vesicle, then you will say, "but that's not how it happened in the past". You may be right, you may be wrong. We can accept that we will never know.

However, what we will know is that your dear and fuzzy lord (excuse me, 'intelligence') is not required to have life. You won't admit it, but that's OK, every who counts will know the score.
Even if you disprove evolution, it does not mean that ID or your religion is correct.
User avatar
OgreMkV
 
Posts: 172
Age: 45
Male

Print view this post

Re: Critique on Calilasseia's "The Emergence Of Life On Eart

#45  Postby Spearthrower » Mar 05, 2010 3:48 pm

RPizzle wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
RPizzle wrote:Wait, didn't rainbow say in a thread moons ago that he was a chemist or had a degree in chemistry?

Edit: I could be wrong though.



Yes, but this is the internet - rainbow might be Father George Coyne, for all we know.

It's a wonder how one would go about getting a degree with no understanding of how chemical reactions occur though. :dunno:


Yeah, I just found the on one of the RDF threads about replicators.

rainbow wrote:As a humble Chemist...


http://forum.richarddawkins.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=97990&start=159



Ahhh well that's not really claiming any qualification in chemistry to be fair, and it also doesn't explicitly deny that he is Father George Coyne either.... the plot thickens!
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 21866
Age: 42
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: Critique on Calilasseia's "The Emergence Of Life On Eart

#46  Postby OgreMkV » Mar 05, 2010 3:49 pm

rainbow wrote:
OgreMkV wrote:
BBTW: (this took about 15 seconds on google by putting in the words "prebiotic phospholipid" Try doing some research before spouting off about things you don't understand.



There is no need to make a personal attack out of this. Can we keep the discussion on a civil basis?


That was not a personal attack. It is obvious to anyone who can spend 15 seconds on google (that nature paper is the first result) that you did not do any research before writing your reply.

My statement was the truth. If you find the truth offensive, then I can't help you. I would further suggest that you do some research before stating things as truth.
Even if you disprove evolution, it does not mean that ID or your religion is correct.
User avatar
OgreMkV
 
Posts: 172
Age: 45
Male

Print view this post

Re: Critique on Calilasseia's "The Emergence Of Life On Eart

#47  Postby rainbow » Mar 05, 2010 3:57 pm

OgreMkV wrote:

Just curious, why didn't you choose to respond to any of the actual points that I made about your critique?



I did here:
Do you have a link to the entire paper, rather than the abstract?

If it does in fact show that phospholipids did exist on the prebiotic earth, I'll be happy to retract my statement.
Fair enough?


Please give the full paper, so I can respond further.
Kill the Wise One!
http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/155419

"Það er ekki til betri tími en núna til að fresta"
User avatar
rainbow
Banned User
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Señor Moderato
Posts: 6903

Mozambique (mz)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Critique on Calilasseia's "The Emergence Of Life On Eart

#48  Postby Spearthrower » Mar 05, 2010 4:02 pm

About the same level of comment as you got for this. Convenient how it's suddenly not on topic, eh?


rainbow wrote:
OgreMkV wrote:http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100108101433.htm

This article (popular) describes how the metabolism first hypothesis is unsound.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100222162009.htm popular
Rebecca M. Turk, Nataliya V. Chumachenko, and Michael Yarus. Multiple translational products from a five-nucleotide ribozyme. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, Published online February 22, 2010 DOI: 10.1073/pnas.0912895107 http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2010/02/12/0912895107.full.pdf+html journal reference

This article descibes how RNAs that are only 5 bases long can be fully functioning protein catalyst.

from the Discussion

Further, these particular reactions are central to metabolism,
resembling the substrate and product of biological aminoacyltRNA
synthesis. Transaminoacylation in this work is performed
more simply than elsewhere (9, 12, 17). In addition, observation
of RNA-peptide products provides the simplest polypeptide
synthesis from aminoacyl adenylate (12, 18, 19), or from any
other substrate, in the absence of protein catalysts. Essential intermediates
in protein biosynthesis therefore arise surprisingly
easily in the presence of very short RNAs.


So this simple 5 nucleotide RNA chain can catalyze the essential intermediates. In other words, it shows that more of the steps from chemistry to biology are possible than we had before.


The ultimate importance of these observations may lie partly
in the unknown number of other reactions that can be accelerated
by comparably small RNAs. This is because for each such minuscule
RNA reaction, there is a prima facie case that it would
become accessible even after the most primitive ribonucleotide
polymerization.


So if one RNA only 5 nuceotides long can do this kind of work... why can't more. The search is on!


To see this, consider that, to pick every possible RNA pentamer
sequence from arbitrary pentamers (with probability 0.9975),
one needs only accumulate 4.1 × 10−18 gm of RNA. To possess
every tetramer (with probability 0.9975) from a pool of arbitrary
tetramers, one would need 3.4 × 10−18 gm RNA. In a real polymerization,
one would have a distribution of lengths; nonetheless,
with only attograms of total RNA of distributed short lengths
from some geochemical source, one would have not only our
ribozyme, but every activity of comparable size.


So you only need 0.00000000000000000041 grams of RNA to have every possible (0.9975) combination of RNA pentamer. Which could provide huge number of catalytic reactions.


As an illustration, the ribozymic complexes characterized here
demonstrate that aminoacyl-RNA and peptidyl-RNAs could
have appeared in the presence of ≥9 nucleotides of polymeric
RNA, with six of these free to vary to other base pairs. We have
previously estimated that a population containing about 1 ng of
arbitrary-sequence RNA would be required before useful ribozymes
and other active RNA structures would probably occur
among this population
(20). This follows the so-called axiom of
origin (21), which estimates that theRNAworld would begin when
the amount of RNA exceeds the threshold for occurrence of ribozymes.
The finding of nine-nucleotide active centers reduces the
threshold for ribozyme activity about 7 orders of magnitude, to a
level much more easily breached by undirected geochemical syntheses
,
or by RNA-catalyzed RNA synthesis itself (22–24).


my emphasis

Hey look, 'undirected geochemical syntheses'! :lol:


The most intriguing possibility raised by these results is that an
RNA reaction center for phosphoester transfer may exist somewhere
near this size. This would make the polymerase/replicase
needed to initiate Darwinian evolution of RNAs, the founding
event of the RNA world, much more likely. On one hand, with
this few ribonucleotides to dispose in space, there may not be
other similar nucleotide structures that are both stable and capable
of catalysis. On the other hand, for obvious reasons, it will be
extraordinarily important to look


Hmmm... future work that can be done using the concepts in this paper. Something ID has never done.

I hope this isn't too deep. I'll be happy to explain further.

edit: correct quotes


Thank you Ogre, that is an interesting post.
Please could you open a new thread on it, since to discuss it further here would derail this thread?
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 21866
Age: 42
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: Critique on Calilasseia's "The Emergence Of Life On Eart

#49  Postby OgreMkV » Mar 05, 2010 4:06 pm

Sorry rainbow. I'll suggest you get a subscription to Nature or visit a local library. I mean, this article is from 1977, it's not like it's a state secret. I'm not going to do all your work for you...

Predict goalpost shift in 3... 2... 1...
Even if you disprove evolution, it does not mean that ID or your religion is correct.
User avatar
OgreMkV
 
Posts: 172
Age: 45
Male

Print view this post

Re: Critique on Calilasseia's "The Emergence Of Life On Eart

#50  Postby rainbow » Mar 05, 2010 4:07 pm

rainbow wrote:
Please give the full paper, so I can respond further.


Have you actually read the full paper, Ogre?
Kill the Wise One!
http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/155419

"Það er ekki til betri tími en núna til að fresta"
User avatar
rainbow
Banned User
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Señor Moderato
Posts: 6903

Mozambique (mz)
Print view this post

Re: Critique on Calilasseia's "The Emergence Of Life On Eart

#51  Postby Newmark » Mar 05, 2010 4:11 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
RPizzle wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
RPizzle wrote:Wait, didn't rainbow say in a thread moons ago that he was a chemist or had a degree in chemistry?

Edit: I could be wrong though.



Yes, but this is the internet - rainbow might be Father George Coyne, for all we know.

It's a wonder how one would go about getting a degree with no understanding of how chemical reactions occur though. :dunno:


Yeah, I just found the on one of the RDF threads about replicators.

rainbow wrote:As a humble Chemist...


http://forum.richarddawkins.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=97990&start=159



Ahhh well that's not really claiming any qualification in chemistry to be fair, and it also doesn't explicitly deny that he is Father George Coyne either.... the plot thickens!


I would hardly think that rainbow is Father George Coyne, since Father Coyne thinks that "Intelligent design isn't science even though it pretends to be", a sentiment rainbow didn't seem to share when he said "Researchers such as Stephen Meyer...". Of course, Father Coyne may have changed his mind...
User avatar
Newmark
 
Posts: 344
Age: 38
Male

Sweden (se)
Print view this post

Re: Critique on Calilasseia's "The Emergence Of Life On Eart

#52  Postby OgreMkV » Mar 05, 2010 4:12 pm

yes, I assure you that in the small fishing village where I grew up, it was the sole topic of conversation.

BTW: Prediction confirmed


edit: snarky comment
Even if you disprove evolution, it does not mean that ID or your religion is correct.
User avatar
OgreMkV
 
Posts: 172
Age: 45
Male

Print view this post

Re: Critique on Calilasseia's "The Emergence Of Life On Eart

#53  Postby Spearthrower » Mar 05, 2010 5:37 pm

Newmark wrote:
I would hardly think that rainbow is Father George Coyne, since Father Coyne thinks that "Intelligent design isn't science even though it pretends to be", a sentiment rainbow didn't seem to share when he said "Researchers such as Stephen Meyer...". Of course, Father Coyne may have changed his mind...


Aye that indeed makes it far less likely that he's Father George Coyne, so I presume he can't be a chemist either! ;)
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 21866
Age: 42
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: Critique on Calilasseia's "The Emergence Of Life On Eart

#54  Postby Durro » Mar 05, 2010 11:28 pm

***Mod Note ***

For the sake of productive discussion, I'm going to ask ALL members to refrain from personalizing their comments and making inferences about other members. Please, stick to the topic at hand and addressing the arguments, not the member making it. There has been antagonism from all sides of the argument, and I'm going to ask that it stop, or else cautions and warnings may start being handed out.

Thanks,

Durro

***End Mod Note***
I'll start believing in Astrology the day that all Sagittarians get hit by a bus, as predicted.
User avatar
Durro
RS Donator
 
Posts: 16736
Age: 51
Male

Country: Brisbane, Australia
Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: Critique on Calilasseia's "The Emergence Of Life On Eart

#55  Postby rainbow » Mar 06, 2010 10:13 am

OgreMkV wrote:Sorry rainbow. I'll suggest you get a subscription to Nature or visit a local library. I mean, this article is from 1977, it's not like it's a state secret. I'm not going to do all your work for you...


Not so easy, Ogre. I live in a poorly serviced area in Africa, and the local library has little information of this sort. I don't have a great deal of money to spend on Scientific Papers, and I depend on the internet to gain whatever information I can get.
However, as you've got access to this paper and have read and understood it, I thought you might like to share its contents with others.
Please do.
Kill the Wise One!
http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/155419

"Það er ekki til betri tími en núna til að fresta"
User avatar
rainbow
Banned User
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Señor Moderato
Posts: 6903

Mozambique (mz)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Critique on Calilasseia's "The Emergence Of Life On Eart

#56  Postby byofrcs » Mar 06, 2010 10:30 am

I like the RNA world. Some expansion on the chiral catalysts (are they random ?) and the steps to autocatalysing RNA (which we have now).

Plus shouldn't we mention the importance of phosphate as a catalyst at a number of stages (e.g. Synthesis of activated pyrimidine ribonucleotides in prebiotically plausible conditions. Matthew W. Powner1, Béatrice Gerland1 & John D. Sutherland).
In America the battle is between common cents distorted by profits and common sense distorted by prophets.
User avatar
byofrcs
RS Donator
 
Name: Lincoln Phipps
Posts: 7906
Age: 54
Male

Country: Tax, sleep, identity ?
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: Critique on Calilasseia's "The Emergence Of Life On Eart

#57  Postby rainbow » Mar 06, 2010 11:03 am

Lipid World

This theory postulates that the first self-replicating object was lipid-like. It is known that phospholipids form bilayers in water while under agitation– the same structure as in cell membranes. These molecules were not present on early earth, however other amphiphilic long chain molecules also form membranes. Furthermore, these bodies may expand (by insertion of additional lipids), and under excessive expansion may undergo spontaneous splitting which preserves the same size and composition of lipids in the two progenies. The main idea in this theory is that the molecular composition of the lipid bodies is the preliminary way for information storage, and evolution led to the appearance of polymer entities such as RNA or DNA that may store information favorably. Still, no biochemical mechanism has been offered to support the Lipid World theory.

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Abiogenesis

Can anyone present any evidence to contradict the statement contained in this article wrt Phospholipids?
Kill the Wise One!
http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/155419

"Það er ekki til betri tími en núna til að fresta"
User avatar
rainbow
Banned User
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Señor Moderato
Posts: 6903

Mozambique (mz)
Print view this post

Re: Critique on Calilasseia's "The Emergence Of Life On Eart

#58  Postby rainbow » Mar 06, 2010 1:35 pm

byofrcs wrote:I like the RNA world. Some expansion on the chiral catalysts (are they random ?) and the steps to autocatalysing RNA (which we have now).

Plus shouldn't we mention the importance of phosphate as a catalyst at a number of stages (e.g. Synthesis of activated pyrimidine ribonucleotides in prebiotically plausible conditions. Matthew W. Powner1, Béatrice Gerland1 & John D. Sutherland).


There is a great deal of elegance in the Sutherland experiment, but it does contradict a lot of other work that has been done on the synthesis of bases and sugars prior to nucleotide synthesis, which brings us to the next part of Cali's paper:
Moreover, research has established that these lipids can encapsulate RNA molecules, and selectively admit the passage of base and sugar molecules to facilitate RNA replication[54, 55].

Ribose sugar isn't that easily formed under prebiotic conditions, and some of the bases are unstable. It remains unanswered as to how they could obtain any significant concentration in the vicinity of the lipids.
Kill the Wise One!
http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/155419

"Það er ekki til betri tími en núna til að fresta"
User avatar
rainbow
Banned User
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Señor Moderato
Posts: 6903

Mozambique (mz)
Print view this post

Re: Critique on Calilasseia's "The Emergence Of Life On Eart

#59  Postby Spearthrower » Mar 06, 2010 1:50 pm

rainbow wrote:
There is a great deal of elegance in the Sutherland experiment, but it does contradict a lot of other work that has been done on the synthesis of bases and sugars prior to nucleotide synthesis


Unsupported assertion, and generally meaningless anyway... in other words, you evaded discussing it.


rainbow wrote:
Moreover, research has established that these lipids can encapsulate RNA molecules, and selectively admit the passage of base and sugar molecules to facilitate RNA replication[54, 55].


Ribose sugar isn't that easily formed under prebiotic conditions


Unsupported assertion, and generally meaningless anyway - the 'ease' of its occurrence wasn't being discussed.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 21866
Age: 42
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: Critique on Calilasseia's "The Emergence Of Life On Eart

#60  Postby rainbow » Mar 06, 2010 2:15 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
rainbow wrote:
There is a great deal of elegance in the Sutherland experiment, but it does contradict a lot of other work that has been done on the synthesis of bases and sugars prior to nucleotide synthesis


Unsupported assertion, and generally meaningless anyway... in other words, you evaded discussing it.


rainbow wrote:
Moreover, research has established that these lipids can encapsulate RNA molecules, and selectively admit the passage of base and sugar molecules to facilitate RNA replication[54, 55].


Ribose sugar isn't that easily formed under prebiotic conditions


Unsupported assertion, and generally meaningless anyway - the 'ease' of its occurrence wasn't being discussed.


OK, then I assume that Leslie Orgel was wrong:
We conclude that some progress has been made in the search for an efficient and specific prebiotic synthesis of ribose and its phosphates. However, in every scenario, there are still a number of obstacles to the completion of a synthesis that yields significant amounts of sufficiently pure ribose in a form that could readily be incorporated into nucleotides.

http://www.physics.nmt.edu/~mce/Orgel_2004.pdf
Kill the Wise One!
http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/155419

"Það er ekki til betri tími en núna til að fresta"
User avatar
rainbow
Banned User
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Señor Moderato
Posts: 6903

Mozambique (mz)
Print view this post

PreviousNext

Return to General Debunking

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest