Debunking Carnism

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Re: Debunking Carnism

#261  Postby romansh » Jul 29, 2016 10:05 pm

ScholasticSpastic wrote:
romansh wrote:
Well my lawn not quite a pasture will need talking to. Either way I have decided to give it a helping hand with clover seed.

I suspect it is a rate thingy - whether we remove nitrogen in the form of lamb faster than nitrogen gets fixed.

I suppose we can add hay to the equation from other pastures but that does not change the basic equation.

Most people growing monocultures aren't doing it to use it for pasture. The best nitrogen fixing plant for pastures is probably alfalfa. At least, it seems to be a very popular one. Hay is a general term for all the stuff that gets baled up and fed to animals. Alfalfa is considered "hay." If you're growing "hay" there's probably a good chance you've already got nitrogen fixers in your field. And in your lambs.

Thanks Scholastic ... but I don't think you need to explain everything.

The point remains nitrogen can't be removed faster than it is added, at least only for a finite time.
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Re: Debunking Carnism

#262  Postby Corneel » Jul 31, 2016 7:06 pm

AlexanderVegan wrote:I don't think buying meat at a supermarket is justifiable. If Corneel, who lives in Mali and stated obtaining proper nutrition in 3rd world countries is hard enough, has access to a normally stocked supermarket, he could be vegan.

What you would consider a normally stocked supermarket? Just to make it clear: your basic inner city Carrefour or Albert Heyn would be considered a high end supermarket here in Bamako, certainly in terms of the availability of food stuff, going with my kids to a mall supermarket in Europe was like an outing to a Attraction Park.

Also, I lived seven years in N'Djaména, Chad. Having access to a supermarket at all was already quite the luxury, there were three or four of them (and meat was bought at the local market with all the hygiene problems that implies, at least hygiene is a bit more assured in a supermarket).

Just to point out:
- I have seen fresh legumes one time in ten at either supermarket I regularly go (and which are already quite exceptional in having fresh vegetables at all - for fresh vegetables locals go to the markets and fresh mean exposed to the sun and elements).
- Even basic simple produce (tomatoes/carrots/garlic/...) is sometimes not available in the supermarket(s).
- Legumes (peas) are mostly available in canned form, imported from Europe. The other one is locally produced peanut paste, used to make a (admittedly yummy) sauce. But however yummy, it's not something we are able to eat every day.
- Lots of the things in the supermarkets are imported from overseas (hello carbon print!) and might easily cost double what the exact same thing costs in Europe.
- Even a lot of the basic staple for the urban population (rice) is imported.
- You have no idea what difference climate makes on how well you can keep things especially combined with an unreliable electricity supply (on which a fridge and freezer depend).

EquALLity wrote:
Corneel wrote:The unofficial stance of Corneel is that "appropriately planned vegan diets" are a luxury for well-meaning people in the western world.

Perhaps, but so what? We're not trying to convince starving people in Africa to go vegan; we're trying to convince YOU, someone who is in the position to have a healthy vegan diet, to reduce your consumption of meat and potentially other animal products.

Corneel wrote:My experience in living over 10 years in developing countries has taught me that "appropriately planned diets" are already difficult enough to plan without excluding animal products.

Well, that just isn't true. In fact, meat and other animal products pose health problems (meat has ties to heart disease, certain meats have ties to cancers, dairy has ties to prostate cancer, etc.).

There's no reason to believe that eating a vegan diet is going to be difficult to do healthily. You just need to eat a lot of legumes and other veggies, along with taking a B-12 supplement. It's really not hard at all. We can try to help you with that if you want. :)

You have no idea how fucking first world you sound.
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Re: Debunking Carnism

#263  Postby Alan B » Jul 31, 2016 8:29 pm

Yep. Some people just cannot think outside their little box.
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Re: Debunking Carnism

#264  Postby VazScep » Jul 31, 2016 9:18 pm

Alan B wrote:Yep. Some people just cannot think outside their little box.
As Marie Antoinette said: let them eat vitamin B12-infused soya milk coated quinoa and lentil pasta.
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Re: Debunking Carnism

#265  Postby ScholasticSpastic » Jul 31, 2016 9:24 pm

This was posted in the funny pictures thread. I think it belongs here, too:
Image
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Re: Debunking Carnism

#266  Postby ScholasticSpastic » Aug 01, 2016 2:38 pm

romansh wrote:
The point remains nitrogen can't be removed faster than it is added, at least only for a finite time.

Stated this generally, I don't see how one could consider it a useful point. In natural systems (by which I am referring to systems which proceed without intervention from humans even though humans ought to be considered a part of nature- because we are) nitrogen depletion and recovery happens all the time. It is meaningless to throw a fit just because someone is using land in a way that removes nitrogen faster than it is replenished. So what? The problem isn't that it happens. The problem is its ubiquity.

Also, the problem of nitrogen depletion, to the extent that it is a problem, isn't addressed by veganism. That's a farm practices problem, not a dietary consumption problem. Even a legume growing operation, if managed poorly, can be expected to rape the soil.
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Re: Debunking Carnism

#267  Postby Onyx8 » Aug 01, 2016 2:40 pm

Unless you also grow animals and put their poop back into the soil...
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Re: Debunking Carnism

#268  Postby romansh » Aug 01, 2016 3:22 pm

Onyx8 wrote:Unless you also grow animals and put their poop back into the soil...

I believe in the conservation of mass (and energy). You would ultimately have to add manure or another nitrogen source if we did have enough nitrogen fixing bacteria.
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Re: Debunking Carnism

#269  Postby romansh » Aug 01, 2016 3:30 pm

ScholasticSpastic wrote:
Stated this generally ...

Yes mankind is "natural" ...

All I was doing was suggesting Onyx might consider a more active nitrogen fixer rather than relying sheep poop.
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Re: Debunking Carnism

#270  Postby ScholasticSpastic » Aug 01, 2016 4:02 pm

romansh wrote:
ScholasticSpastic wrote:
Stated this generally ...

Yes mankind is "natural" ...

All I was doing was suggesting Onyx might consider a more active nitrogen fixer rather than relying sheep poop.

This is why I went into detail about what "hay" is. If Onyx grows hay, and hay contains nitrogen fixers, then Onyx will already be addressing this issue. The question then becomes whether the sheep are pastured at a density which will outstrip the capacity of their forage to replenish the soil. In most cases, when we're dealing with non-commercial operations, the answer to that is no.

I am also addressing other points which, while not a direct reply to what you said, are applicable to this discussion.
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Re: Debunking Carnism

#271  Postby romansh » Aug 01, 2016 8:43 pm

Yes I understand nitrogen fixers are ubiquitous.

From the little bit of searching (a few minutes) it would appear the typical nitrogen fix rates are in the order of 10 to 40 kg/(ha y). Assuming Onyx has 1 ha and that he raises two lambs totalling 50 kg of flesh for personal consumption and assuming 10 % nitrogen in the flesh, then I agree, Onyx should not have a long term problem.

As to the ethics/morality of all this? I suppose one needs to believe in such concepts.
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Re: Debunking Carnism

#272  Postby ScholasticSpastic » Aug 01, 2016 8:59 pm

romansh wrote:
As to the ethics/morality of all this? I suppose one needs to believe in such concepts.

Are you saying you don't believe in ethics or morality? Or are you saying that you don't believe in a universal ethic or morality? Or are you saying that you don't believe that non-human animals can arguably be given the same ethical considerations as human animals?

Just trying to determine whether and/or how much I disagree with you.
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Re: Debunking Carnism

#273  Postby VazScep » Aug 01, 2016 9:19 pm

I'm a vegan but I volunteer as a cat torturer on Saturdays to balance it out.
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Re: Debunking Carnism

#274  Postby romansh » Aug 01, 2016 10:46 pm

ScholasticSpastic wrote:
romansh wrote:
As to the ethics/morality of all this? I suppose one needs to believe in such concepts.

Are you saying you don't believe in ethics or morality? Or are you saying that you don't believe in a universal ethic or morality? Or are you saying that you don't believe that non-human animals can arguably be given the same ethical considerations as human animals?

Just trying to determine whether and/or how much I disagree with you.

The concepts exist.

Just that I strive to be amoral ... fail miserably, but that is OK.
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Re: Debunking Carnism

#275  Postby ScholasticSpastic » Aug 02, 2016 2:49 pm

romansh wrote:
Just that I strive to be amoral ... fail miserably, but that is OK.

I suspect that you may have attached some baggage to the term "moral" that isn't necessary. Religions have taken credit for and hijacked a number of basic human experiences that they had no business taking credit for and hijacking. Morality/ethics is one of those things. The rather transparent motive for religions having done this is that they can then claim you cannot be fully human without religion. We know this is bullshit. But you're still holding on to some of the corrupt patterns that religions foster- I can see this because you appear to think it is necessary to reject a basic humansocial animal experience in order to reject religion.
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Re: Debunking Carnism

#276  Postby romansh » Aug 02, 2016 3:33 pm

Scholastic

I think your suspicions are wrong.

Just to clarify ... evolution has endowed us with a capacity to have feelings which include, guilt, shame etc. Now it is at least to some extent that society has filled this capacity with behaviours we might feel ashamed or guilty about. Similarly evolution has endowed me think of my kitchen chair as red ... though physics and biology tells me to think of it differently. Similarly for things like shame and guilt ... also similarly for the more positive feelings we experience.

As a society we come up with a set of rules so that society can function and give us communally an increased chance of survival and perhaps pleasure. I have no problem with this. Though some if not most would couch these rules in terms morals/ethics and perhaps go as far good and evil. Just take a look at the fora here ... eventually some topics become heated and the posts become full of what can be described as righteous indignation.

So please leave this baggage nonsense where it came from.
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Re: Debunking Carnism

#277  Postby laklak » Aug 02, 2016 3:36 pm

Morality is a moveable feast, particularly when tasty animals are served. I had bacon for breakfast, my home cured back bacon, and if I do say so myself it was particularly delicious. I had a moment of moral introspection, thinking of the little piggy life I was so callously abusing, but then I said "fuck it".
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Re: Debunking Carnism

#278  Postby ScholasticSpastic » Aug 02, 2016 3:53 pm

romansh wrote:
As a society we come up with a set of rules so that society can function and give us communally an increased chance of survival and perhaps pleasure. I have no problem with this. Though some if not most would couch these rules in terms morals/ethics and perhaps go as far good and evil. Just take a look at the fora here ... eventually some topics become heated and the posts become full of what can be described as righteous indignation.

What is the term you use to describe this if not morality/ethics?
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Re: Debunking Carnism

#279  Postby ScholasticSpastic » Aug 02, 2016 3:57 pm

romansh wrote:
I think your suspicions are wrong.

Only you can know what you are really thinking. :cheers: This is why I tried to phrase things tentatively.
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Re: Debunking Carnism

#280  Postby romansh » Aug 02, 2016 4:08 pm

Rules and regulations?

If I don't follow the rules and regulations, and if I get caught I will bear the consequences. See no need to hang on to the baggage of morality.
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