Explanation for this 'Spontaneous Human Combustion ' case?

any debunkings?

Anything that doesn't fit anywhere else below.

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Re: Explanation for this 'Spontaneous Human Combustion ' case?

#101  Postby Matt_B » Aug 08, 2013 1:39 pm

kennyc wrote:
BlackBart wrote:What if...if...if... he had a miniature invisible firebreathing dragon down his trousers?!!



Daaaauuuummmm!

:clap:


Well, it's at least as good an explanation as SHC.
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Re: Explanation for this 'Spontaneous Human Combustion ' case?

#102  Postby BlackBart » Aug 08, 2013 1:44 pm

MarkgaB5 wrote:Get to the point. Explain to me why muscle cells cannot reach autoignition temperature of flesh (skin). Biologists and skeptics are welcome. take note that when a person gets a fever, temperature of cells is increased by chemicals called pyrogens http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrogen.


Still haven't grasped the 'Burden of proof' concept yet then? :lol:
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Re: Explanation for this 'Spontaneous Human Combustion ' case?

#103  Postby MarkgaB5 » Aug 08, 2013 1:50 pm

You still havent validly disputed the possibility of muscular cells overheating to the point of skin tissue combustion in the circumstances I described (pyrogens).You're basically implying you accept that cells can overheat from too many pyrogens to the point of temps up to 400c, enough to ignite skin and clothing next to the skin.
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Re: Explanation for this 'Spontaneous Human Combustion ' case?

#104  Postby Arcanyn » Aug 08, 2013 1:51 pm

It's pretty simple really; all human enzymes can only function at a fairly narrow temperature range. If the cells were to heat up too much, the enzymes responsible for respiration would become denatured, and the cell would be unable to produce energy (or do anything else for that matter). This would happen long before they become hot enough to sustain a combustion reaction (which would, after all need to be energetic enough to boil away the water in and outside the cells).
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Re: Explanation for this 'Spontaneous Human Combustion ' case?

#105  Postby BlackBart » Aug 08, 2013 1:54 pm

MarkgaB5 wrote:You still havent validly disputed the possibility of muscular cells overheating to the point of skin tissue combustion in the circumstances I described (pyrogens).You're basically implying you accept that cells can overheat from too many pyrogens to the point of temps up to 400c, enough to ignite skin and clothing next to the skin.


Again with the misrepresentation. :nono:
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Can the overheating of cells cause Spontaneous Combustion?

#106  Postby MarkgaB5 » Aug 08, 2013 1:54 pm

Fevers are caused by ''Pyrogens'', so what if too many Pyrogens are produced? Is it possible that this could result in a build up of heat, and cause the dry skin on the surface to spontaneously combust? What if nerves, which implement electricity, fire too frequently causing a temperature build-up, particularly in muscle cells, which are more active and dense, hence less heat can dissipate? Could this explain the unexplained cases of spontaneous human combustion?

Fevers can arise very quickly sometimes..it's all to do with ''Pyrogens'' and how quickly they are released, and the amount released. Usually only a small amount are released to cause a simple fever, but things can and do go wrong sometimes.
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Re: Can the overheating of cells cause Spontaneous Combustion?

#107  Postby Scar » Aug 08, 2013 1:58 pm

Look, the troll thread has spawned a baby!
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Re: Explanation for this 'Spontaneous Human Combustion ' case?

#108  Postby MarkgaB5 » Aug 08, 2013 1:59 pm

Arcanyn wrote:It's pretty simple really; all human enzymes can only function at a fairly narrow temperature range. If the cells were to heat up too much, the enzymes responsible for respiration would become denatured, and the cell would be unable to produce energy (or do anything else for that matter). This would happen long before they become hot enough to sustain a combustion reaction (which would, after all need to be energetic enough to boil away the water in and outside the cells).


Hmm good testimony, but what about muscle cells? is it possible for them to overheat too quickly and produce sufficient heat before they are 'denatured'?
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Re: Can the overheating of cells cause Spontaneous Combustion?

#109  Postby BlackBart » Aug 08, 2013 1:59 pm

Scar wrote:Look, the troll thread has spawned a baby!


I'm sure mother and child will soon be reunited.
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Re: Can the overheating of cells cause Spontaneous Combustion?

#110  Postby Scar » Aug 08, 2013 2:01 pm

BlackBart wrote:
Scar wrote:Look, the troll thread has spawned a baby!


I'm sure mother and child will soon be reunited.


That was fast! Ratskep is very pro family!
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Re: Can the overheating of cells cause Spontaneous Combustion?

#111  Postby Matt_B » Aug 08, 2013 2:02 pm

MarkgaB5 wrote:Fevers are caused by ''Pyrogens'', so what if too many Pyrogens are produced? Is it possible that this could result in a build up of heat, and cause the dry skin on the surface to spontaneously combust? What if nerves, which implement electricity, fire too frequently causing a temperature build-up, particularly in muscle cells, which are more active and dense, hence less heat can dissipate? Could this explain the unexplained cases of spontaneous human combustion?

Fevers can arise very quickly sometimes..it's all to do with ''Pyrogens'' and how quickly they are released, and the amount released. Usually only a small amount are released to cause a simple fever, but things can and do go wrong sometimes.


Fevers typically only raise your body temperature by a few degrees though. Get above about 42 Celsius for any length of time and you'll die; that's not even close to the temperatures needed for SHC.
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Re: Can the overheating of cells cause Spontaneous Combustion?

#112  Postby MarkgaB5 » Aug 08, 2013 2:04 pm

Matt_B wrote:
MarkgaB5 wrote:Fevers are caused by ''Pyrogens'', so what if too many Pyrogens are produced? Is it possible that this could result in a build up of heat, and cause the dry skin on the surface to spontaneously combust? What if nerves, which implement electricity, fire too frequently causing a temperature build-up, particularly in muscle cells, which are more active and dense, hence less heat can dissipate? Could this explain the unexplained cases of spontaneous human combustion?

Fevers can arise very quickly sometimes..it's all to do with ''Pyrogens'' and how quickly they are released, and the amount released. Usually only a small amount are released to cause a simple fever, but things can and do go wrong sometimes.


Fevers typically only raise your body temperature by a few degrees though. Get above about 42 Celsius for any length of time and you'll die; that's not even close to the temperatures needed for SHC.


Yes a person will probably die but it takes hours to die from a fever. if a high temperature is just limited to say the leg muscle or arm muscle it shouldnt kill the person just cause a localized combustion before the cells died?
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Re: Can the overheating of cells cause Spontaneous Combustion?

#113  Postby BlackBart » Aug 08, 2013 2:11 pm

MarkgaB5 wrote:
Matt_B wrote:
MarkgaB5 wrote:Fevers are caused by ''Pyrogens'', so what if too many Pyrogens are produced? Is it possible that this could result in a build up of heat, and cause the dry skin on the surface to spontaneously combust? What if nerves, which implement electricity, fire too frequently causing a temperature build-up, particularly in muscle cells, which are more active and dense, hence less heat can dissipate? Could this explain the unexplained cases of spontaneous human combustion?

Fevers can arise very quickly sometimes..it's all to do with ''Pyrogens'' and how quickly they are released, and the amount released. Usually only a small amount are released to cause a simple fever, but things can and do go wrong sometimes.


Fevers typically only raise your body temperature by a few degrees though. Get above about 42 Celsius for any length of time and you'll die; that's not even close to the temperatures needed for SHC.


Yes a person will probably die but it takes hours to die from a fever. if a high temperature is just limited to say the leg muscle or arm muscle it shouldnt kill the person just cause a localized combustion before the cells died?


Do you have any evidence a temperature rise has been limited to a leg? Let alone a temperature rise high enough to cause ignition?
Do you have any given case of SHC where an external heat source has been completely discounted?
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Re: Can the overheating of cells cause Spontaneous Combustion?

#114  Postby MarkgaB5 » Aug 08, 2013 2:15 pm

BlackBart wrote:
MarkgaB5 wrote:
Matt_B wrote:
MarkgaB5 wrote:Fevers are caused by ''Pyrogens'', so what if too many Pyrogens are produced? Is it possible that this could result in a build up of heat, and cause the dry skin on the surface to spontaneously combust? What if nerves, which implement electricity, fire too frequently causing a temperature build-up, particularly in muscle cells, which are more active and dense, hence less heat can dissipate? Could this explain the unexplained cases of spontaneous human combustion?

Fevers can arise very quickly sometimes..it's all to do with ''Pyrogens'' and how quickly they are released, and the amount released. Usually only a small amount are released to cause a simple fever, but things can and do go wrong sometimes.


Fevers typically only raise your body temperature by a few degrees though. Get above about 42 Celsius for any length of time and you'll die; that's not even close to the temperatures needed for SHC.


Yes a person will probably die but it takes hours to die from a fever. if a high temperature is just limited to say the leg muscle or arm muscle it shouldnt kill the person just cause a localized combustion before the cells died?


Do you have any evidence a temperature rise has been limited to a leg? Let alone a temperature rise high enough to cause ignition?
Do you have any given case of SHC where an external heat source has been completely discounted?


The case I describe in my first post on the first page of this thread.
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Re: Explanation for this 'Spontaneous Human Combustion ' case?

#115  Postby campermon » Aug 08, 2013 2:19 pm

:popcorn:
Scarlett and Ironclad wrote:Campermon,...a middle aged, middle class, Guardian reading, dad of four, knackered hippy, woolly jumper wearing wino and science teacher.
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Re: Can the overheating of cells cause Spontaneous Combustion?

#116  Postby BlackBart » Aug 08, 2013 2:22 pm

MarkgaB5 wrote:
BlackBart wrote:
MarkgaB5 wrote:
Matt_B wrote:

Fevers typically only raise your body temperature by a few degrees though. Get above about 42 Celsius for any length of time and you'll die; that's not even close to the temperatures needed for SHC.


Yes a person will probably die but it takes hours to die from a fever. if a high temperature is just limited to say the leg muscle or arm muscle it shouldnt kill the person just cause a localized combustion before the cells died?


Do you have any evidence a temperature rise has been limited to a leg? Let alone a temperature rise high enough to cause ignition?
Do you have any given case of SHC where an external heat source has been completely discounted?


The case I describe in my first post on the first page of this thread.


Which, once again, is an anecdotal claim. What facts do you have that allow us to conclude it isn't fabrication or delusion?
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Re: Explanation for this 'Spontaneous Human Combustion ' case?

#117  Postby BlackBart » Aug 08, 2013 2:22 pm

campermon wrote::popcorn:


Beer and popcorn?
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Re: Explanation for this 'Spontaneous Human Combustion ' case?

#118  Postby Ihavenofingerprints » Aug 08, 2013 2:23 pm

Markga, why look for an alternate explanation to spontaneous combustion?
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Re: Can the overheating of cells cause Spontaneous Combustion?

#119  Postby MarkgaB5 » Aug 08, 2013 2:24 pm

BlackBart wrote:
MarkgaB5 wrote:
BlackBart wrote:
MarkgaB5 wrote:

Yes a person will probably die but it takes hours to die from a fever. if a high temperature is just limited to say the leg muscle or arm muscle it shouldnt kill the person just cause a localized combustion before the cells died?


Do you have any evidence a temperature rise has been limited to a leg? Let alone a temperature rise high enough to cause ignition?
Do you have any given case of SHC where an external heat source has been completely discounted?


The case I describe in my first post on the first page of this thread.


Which, once again, is an anecdotal claim. What facts do you have that allow us to conclude it isn't fabrication or delusion?


A news source, obituary validating the existance of this person, no reason to fabricate an event thats consistent on every website it is mentioned, the fact it occured over 100 years ago so nothing like a news source at the time can be found, and the fact that it was published in medical journals at the time which may be accessible in a library for old documents such as that. Stranger things have happened. There isn't any news source on the death of Mary Reeser at the time it happened but theres been documentaries on that case and info online about it yet it was investigated and taken seriously.
Last edited by MarkgaB5 on Aug 08, 2013 2:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Explanation for this 'Spontaneous Human Combustion ' case?

#120  Postby MarkgaB5 » Aug 08, 2013 2:25 pm

Ihavenofingerprints wrote:Markga, why look for an alternate explanation to spontaneous combustion?


This is a skeptic forum is it not?
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