"Ground of all Being"?

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Re: "Ground of all Being"?

#1821  Postby Cito di Pense » Oct 03, 2018 8:53 am

Kafei wrote:Lighten up, folks. I rephrased it.

To the contrary, this is not a "quote-mining." The double-blind technique is a very specific technique. It's not varied across the board, it's universal. Richard Dawkins is only explaining the process of it, and it's precisely the very same technique used in this research. Dawkins didn't invent the technique, he's merely recognizing its validity. To equate that to an instance of "quote-mining" merely reveals a great ignorance on your own behalf as I've emphasized in my previous posts. It's you that doesn't understand what this method involves, I understand quite plainly so because as I've mentioned, I've been following this research quite diligently for a little over a decade now. You'd have an uphill battle arguing that I'm somehow misconstruing this research.


The guy attempted to accuse me of quote-mining for attempting to explain what entailed the double-blind method. I rightly called that nonsense out.


You got so wound up about whether somebody who doesn't know you personally properly recognizes how much you really do or don't know about experimental design that you called somebody an 'idiot' for identifying your incompetent quote-mining, and were booked for it. Nobody with a measure of confidence in his capacity to understand experimental design will get that bent out of shape during an informal conversation within the context of which that competence cannot be demonstrated, but within the context of which incompetence can, such as happens anonymously in chatrooms. Your capacity to evaluate rigorously the validity of research done by anyone is not demonstrated.

The following illustrates admirably how much trouble you have applying your vast knowledge of experimental design:

newolder wrote:
Kafei wrote:...
Maybe it only makes sense to atheists. However, I'm speaking on the science relative to these matters, not some meme.

In your own words, please state the null hypothesis pertinent to the science of the "Ground of all Being"


Nobody doubts that you can look up the definition of 'double blind experimental design" somewhere on the internet. You tried this:

Kafei wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:It is quote-mining, because neither you nor the researchers have demonstrated that the double-blind technique has any applicability in the case of the research you are citing, with respect to whatever the null hypothesis is in the so-called experiment. Just speak it, Kafei: What is the null result in those 'experiments'?


The null result, I suppose, would be ordinary experience, no report of what is supposed to be criteria for the so-called "complete" mystical experience which required a rating of over 60% on six of the primary characteristics that are definitive for this experience. The double-blind method is crucial to these studies, and the fact that you cannot discern this is so only reveals your nescience upon these topics.


That went over like a leaden thought baloon. You never produced one statement by Dawkins which has anything to do with whether anecdotes are suitable in 'double blind studies' as competent researchers understand the methodology. You produced a clip in which Dawkins cited the utility of double blind studies (and we can assume Dawkins knows how the methodology is correctly implemented, whereas in your case, we cannot). Your incompetence is demonstrated throughout the scope of this single thread in which you've invested so much at so little profit.
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Re: "Ground of all Being"?

#1822  Postby Cito di Pense » Oct 03, 2018 9:22 am

Kafei wrote:Lighten up, folks. I rephrased it.

[snip]
The guy attempted to accuse me of quote-mining for attempting to explain what entailed the double-blind method. I rightly called that nonsense out.


Oh, bullshit. What you failed to do was demonstrate that anecdotes have any utility in double-blind studies of any scientific merit. You know, by citing any double-blind studies of any scientifc merit where anecdotes constitute the 'data'.
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Re: "Ground of all Being"?

#1823  Postby newolder » Oct 03, 2018 12:25 pm

newolder wrote:
Kafei wrote:...
Maybe it only makes sense to atheists. However, I'm speaking on the science relative to these matters, not some meme.

In your own words, please state the null hypothesis pertinent to the science of the "Ground of all Being"...

If that^ is too problematic then perhaps we could try another, step by step route to the science?

There is a drug, let’s call it P, that in 'heroic' doses causes some people to claim experience of the Ground Of All Being (GOAB).

Firstly, what is the GOAB? Is it a human brain state or something external that, nevertheless, can act upon human brains - like, say, a drug or an idea from another human brain - a meme? How and where is this GOAB shown? Do you think the plural of anecdote is data?

In a double blind study of P on a randomised test group, what fraction of those who took placebo would be expected to claim experience of the GOAB during the trial? How was this figure calculated or estimated? What fraction of this group actually claimed experience of the GOAB during the trial? Are these two numbers significantly different and how is this shown?

Measured in grammes, what is a 'heroic' dose of P for a 70 kg human?

Apart from anecdotes, what other data are collected and analysed?

How are these reports and data mapped to the GOAB? If the GOAB is a brain state, how is the GOAB brain state differentiated from other brains states resulting from the effects of P alone?

If there are any PubMed references on “P and the GOAB” they should also be included.
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Re: "Ground of all Being"?

#1824  Postby Kafei » Oct 04, 2018 5:41 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:That went over like a leaden thought baloon. You never produced one statement by Dawkins which has anything to do with whether anecdotes are suitable in 'double blind studies' as competent researchers understand the methodology. You produced a clip in which Dawkins cited the utility of double blind studies (and we can assume Dawkins knows how the methodology is correctly implemented, whereas in your case, we cannot). Your incompetence is demonstrated throughout the scope of this single thread in which you've invested so much at so little profit.


Anecdotes are perfectly suitable for double-blind studies. Dawkins reveals the efficacy of such a method in these types of studies, and yes, I understand completely how the double-blind method works. If your argument is simply that you doubt my grasp of the double-blind method, then that's a pretty weak argument.



newolder wrote:
newolder wrote:
Kafei wrote:...
Maybe it only makes sense to atheists. However, I'm speaking on the science relative to these matters, not some meme.

In your own words, please state the null hypothesis pertinent to the science of the "Ground of all Being"...

If that^ is too problematic then perhaps we could try another, step by step route to the science?

There is a drug, let’s call it P, that in 'heroic' doses causes some people to claim experience of the Ground Of All Being (GOAB).

Firstly, what is the GOAB? Is it a human brain state or something external that, nevertheless, can act upon human brains - like, say, a drug or an idea from another human brain - a meme? How and where is this GOAB shown? Do you think the plural of anecdote is data?


The core primary feature of a "complete" mystical experience, an experience which the impression is of a literal unicity with the very sum of all that exist. If I may take a couple of excerpts from Ken Wilber's "Up From Eden" book on the Perennial philosophy so that perhaps you can gain a better understanding of what is precisely is meant by "The Ground of All Being."

"According to the perennial philosophy, then, one's real self or Buddha Nature is not everlasting and death-defying; it is rather timeless and transcendent. Liberation does not mean going on forever and forever and forever in some sort of gold-embossed heaven. It means a direct and immediate apprehension of the is spaceless and timeless Ground of Being. This apprehension does not show a person that he is immortal — which he plainly is not. Rather, it shows him that where his psyche touches and intersects the timeless Source, he ultimately is all of a piece with the universe — so intimately, in fact, that at that level he _is_ the universe. When a person rediscovers that his deepest Nature is one with All, he is relieved of the burdens of time, of anxiety, of worry; he is released from the chains of alienation and separate-self existence. Seeing that self and other are one, he is released from the fear of life; seeing that being and nonbeing are one, he is delivered from fear of death.

Thus, when one rediscovers the ultimate Wholeness, one transcends — but does not obliterate — every imaginable sort of boundary, and therefore transcends all types of battles. It is a conflict-free awareness, whole, blissful. But this does not mean that one loses all egoic consciousness, all temporal awareness, that one goes into blank trance, suspends all critical faculties and wallows in oceanic mush. It simply means that one rediscovers the background of egoic consciousness. One is aware of the integral Wholeness and of the explicit ego. Wholeness is not the opposite of egoic individuality, it is simply its Ground, and the discovery of the ground does not annihilate the figure of the ego. On the contrary, it simply reconnects it with the rest of nature, cosmos, and divinity. This is not an everlasting state, but a timeless state. With this realization, one does not gain everlasting life in time, but discovers that which is prior to time." - Ken Wilbur

newolder wrote:In a double blind study of P on a randomised test group, what fraction of those who took placebo would be expected to claim experience of the GOAB during the trial? How was this figure calculated or estimated? What fraction of this group actually claimed experience of the GOAB during the trial? Are these two numbers significantly different and how is this shown?


Oh, definitely, the numbers are vastly different. If you compare the placebo, in which they used Ritalin (methylphenidate), you will find invariably in every case that the psilocybin rates greatly higher for the "complete" mystical experience. I don't believe they really had an expectation of the volunteers who took placebo, because that's the point of the double-blind method. That neither volunteer, nor the nurse, nor any of the professionals involved know what's being administered to the volunteer, placebo or psilocybin, and this is not to be revealed 'til the study is completely done.

newolder wrote:Measured in grammes, what is a 'heroic' dose of P for a 70 kg human?


Well, they're using a dose that is the equivalent to what Terence McKenna called the "heroic dose." That is five dried grams of psilocybin-containing mushrooms. However, that's not exactly what they're giving their patients. Rather, they're using pure psilocybin to the equivalent of that dose contained in a single pill.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_6Wf8Xuq70&t=8m55s

newolder wrote:Apart from anecdotes, what other data are collected and analysed?


They're also using fMRI to assess these states aside from the anecdoatal data. Then, they also take the time to question closely the volunteers' family members, close friends or acquaintances to assess the behavioral changes in these individuals.

There's also the extensive exegesis that's been done by Dr. Ralph Hood who's recognized the reported mystical experience riddled throughout the literature of all the world's major religious and spiritual traditions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbQOpWlyV5Q&t=4m51s


newolder wrote:How are these reports and data mapped to the GOAB? If the GOAB is a brain state, how is the GOAB brain state differentiated from other brains states resulting from the effects of P alone?


I don't think it's differentiated. I believe what these professionals have discovered is a universal phenomenon in consciousness that is similar across the board.

newolder wrote:If there are any PubMed references on “P and the GOAB” they should also be included.


Well, that's what this research is. That's what I've referenced. However, they don't specifically point to Paul Tillich's particular metaphor, nevertheless it is implied and intrinsically part of this research. "The Ground of All Being" is essentially synonymous with "The One" of Plotinus, the Brahman of Hinduism, the Beatific vision or Theoria of Christianity, of wu wei in Taoism, Fana in Islam, sekhel mufla in Judaism, etc., etc. or a "complete" mystical experience in this research.
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Re: "Ground of all Being"?

#1825  Postby Scot Dutchy » Oct 04, 2018 6:00 pm

FFS a real nutter.
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Re: "Ground of all Being"?

#1826  Postby newolder » Oct 04, 2018 6:05 pm

Kafei wrote:...
newolder wrote:
newolder wrote:
Kafei wrote:...
Maybe it only makes sense to atheists. However, I'm speaking on the science relative to these matters, not some meme.

In your own words, please state the null hypothesis pertinent to the science of the "Ground of all Being"...

If that^ is too problematic then perhaps we could try another, step by step route to the science?

There is a drug, let’s call it P, that in 'heroic' doses causes some people to claim experience of the Ground Of All Being (GOAB).

Firstly, what is the GOAB? Is it a human brain state or something external that, nevertheless, can act upon human brains - like, say, a drug or an idea from another human brain - a meme? How and where is this GOAB shown? Do you think the plural of anecdote is data?


The core primary feature of a "complete" mystical experience, an experience which the impression is of a literal unicity with the very sum of all that exist. If I may take a couple of excerpts from Ken Wilber's "Up From Eden" book on the Perennial philosophy so that perhaps you can gain a better understanding of what is precisely is meant by "The Ground of All Being."

"According to the perennial philosophy, then, one's real self or Buddha Nature is not everlasting and death-defying; it is rather timeless and transcendent. Liberation does not mean going on forever and forever and forever in some sort of gold-embossed heaven. It means a direct and immediate apprehension of the is spaceless and timeless Ground of Being. This apprehension does not show a person that he is immortal — which he plainly is not. Rather, it shows him that where his psyche touches and intersects the timeless Source, he ultimately is all of a piece with the universe — so intimately, in fact, that at that level he _is_ the universe. When a person rediscovers that his deepest Nature is one with All, he is relieved of the burdens of time, of anxiety, of worry; he is released from the chains of alienation and separate-self existence. Seeing that self and other are one, he is released from the fear of life; seeing that being and nonbeing are one, he is delivered from fear of death.

Thus, when one rediscovers the ultimate Wholeness, one transcends — but does not obliterate — every imaginable sort of boundary, and therefore transcends all types of battles. It is a conflict-free awareness, whole, blissful. But this does not mean that one loses all egoic consciousness, all temporal awareness, that one goes into blank trance, suspends all critical faculties and wallows in oceanic mush. It simply means that one rediscovers the background of egoic consciousness. One is aware of the integral Wholeness and of the explicit ego. Wholeness is not the opposite of egoic individuality, it is simply its Ground, and the discovery of the ground does not annihilate the figure of the ego. On the contrary, it simply reconnects it with the rest of nature, cosmos, and divinity. This is not an everlasting state, but a timeless state. With this realization, one does not gain everlasting life in time, but discovers that which is prior to time." - Ken Wilbur

In summary then, the GOAB is a brain state.

newolder wrote:In a double blind study of P on a randomised test group, what fraction of those who took placebo would be expected to claim experience of the GOAB during the trial? How was this figure calculated or estimated? What fraction of this group actually claimed experience of the GOAB during the trial? Are these two numbers significantly different and how is this shown?


Oh, definitely, the numbers are vastly different. If you compare the placebo, in which they used Ritalin (methylphenidate), you will find invariably in every case that the psilocybin rates greatly higher for the "complete" mystical experience.

Not unexpected but what are those numbers?
I don't believe they really had an expectation of the volunteers who took placebo, because that's the point of the double-blind method.

No. That's the null hypothesis: The drug produces no GOAB brain state in anyone. This is disproved if the drug does produce a reliable and quantifiable GOAB brain state above background expectations (that could be zero but it's still an expectation) in the volunteer population.
That neither volunteer, nor the nurse, nor any of the professionals involved know what's being administered to the volunteer, placebo or psilocybin, and this is not to be revealed 'til the study is completely done.

You mean until after the analysis is complete?

newolder wrote:Measured in grammes, what is a 'heroic' dose of P for a 70 kg human?


Well, they're using a dose that is the equivalent to what Terence McKenna called the "heroic dose." That is five dried grams of psilocybin-containing mushrooms. However, that's not exactly what they're giving their patients. Rather, they're using pure psilocybin to the equivalent of that dose contained in a single pill.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_6Wf8Xuq70&t=8m55s

That's not what I asked for though. How much P (in grammes) is contained in 5 dried grammes of mushrooms?

newolder wrote:Apart from anecdotes, what other data are collected and analysed?


They're also using fMRI to assess these states aside from the anecdoatal data. Then, they also take the time to question closely the volunteers' family members, close friends or acquaintances to assess the behavioral changes in these individuals.

There's also the extensive exegesis that's been done by Dr. Ralph Hood who's recognized the reported mystical experience riddled throughout the literature of all the world's major religious and spiritual traditions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbQOpWlyV5Q&t=4m51s

The anecdotes are uninteresting. What does the fMRI analysis reveal?
newolder wrote:How are these reports and data mapped to the GOAB? If the GOAB is a brain state, how is the GOAB brain state differentiated from other brains states resulting from the effects of P alone?


I don't think it's differentiated. I believe what these professionals have discovered is a universal phenomenon in consciousness that is similar across the board.

There is no difference between the GOAB state and the states produced by P alone. Ok.

newolder wrote:If there are any PubMed references on “P and the GOAB” they should also be included.

Well, that's what this research is. That's what I've referenced.

What are the relevant PubMed references, please?
However, they don't specifically point to Paul Tillich's particular metaphor, nevertheless it is implied and intrinsically part of this research. "The Ground of All Being" is essentially synonymous with "The One" of Plotinus, the Brahman of Hinduism, the Beatific vision or Theoria of Christianity, of wu wei in Taoism, Fana in Islam, sekhel mufla in Judaism, etc., etc. or a "complete" mystical experience in this research.

In summary then, P induces brain states different to placebo.
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Re: "Ground of all Being"?

#1827  Postby Keep It Real » Oct 04, 2018 6:07 pm

Kafei, do you acknowledge the experimental studies into psilocybin were littered with demand characteristics promoting theistic reports, or not?
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Re: "Ground of all Being"?

#1828  Postby Kafei » Oct 04, 2018 6:44 pm

newolder wrote:
In summary then, the GOAB is a brain state.


No, this is somewhat of a misconception. What occurs is rather a metanoia, a fundamental transformation of perception. I think it's sort of misleading just to attribute it to a "brain state." We me find it's the highest relationship between a brain and the external reality for that a mystic to have an experience of the sum of all that exists, there must necessarily be a sum of all that exists. I don't think you can separate the two, they're fundamentally one and experienced as so within the "complete" mystical experience, and have been described in such a way at the very core of all of the major religions.

newolder wrote:
Not unexpected but what are those numbers?


It's a night and day difference. What's so hard to believe about that? Why don't you review it for yourself?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxWvIp9XtUc&t=8m24s

newolder wrote:No. That's the null hypothesis: The drug produces no GOAB brain state in anyone. This is disproved if the drug does produce a reliable and quantifiable GOAB brain state above background expectations (that could be zero but it's still an expectation) in the volunteer population.


Sure, and that's what they've demonstrated, that the "complete" mystical experience or the "GOAB brain state," if you insist, is a biologically normal phenomenon in consciousness, that is to say we're all wired for such experiences.


newolder wrote:
That neither volunteer, nor the nurse, nor any of the professionals involved know what's being administered to the volunteer, placebo or psilocybin, and this is not to be revealed 'til the study is completely done.

You mean until after the analysis is complete?


Sure, yes, after all the work is done only then it is revealed who got what.

newolder wrote:That's not what I asked for though. How much P (in grammes) is contained in 5 dried grammes of mushrooms?


I did answer your question. Well, of course, no amount of any particular psilocybin-producing mushroom species is going to contained a fixed psilocybin amount in any five dried grams, but approximately that usually elicits what they're using in the study which is 30mg of psilocybin per 70kg of bodyweight. They're planning to raise the dose slightly higher for the more recent studies.

newolder wrote:The anecdotes are uninteresting. What does the fMRI analysis reveal?


Have you heard the anecdotes of the former atheists whom after a "complete" mystical experience no longer identified with atheism? The fMRI is also interesting. Aside from showing clear similarities in these fMRI images of the so-called "complete" mystical experience, there also has been really interesting research led by Dr. Robin Carhart-Harris relative to what these neuroscientists call the "Default Mode Network."

newolder wrote:There is no difference between the GOAB state and the states produced by P alone. Ok.


Sure, and there's no difference between naturally occurring "complete" mystical experiences and the states produced by psilocybin alone. The implication being psychedelics aren't necessary for this experience, it's something that is a potential within us all. Psychedelics only mimic what we could otherwise achieve naturally if we practiced spiritual techniques such as meditation or asceticism, and not to mention good heath.

newolder wrote:What are the relevant PubMed references, please?


A good bulk of the more recent research has been peer-reviewed and published in The Scientific Journal of Psychopharmacology, but this research has a much more rich history than that initiating with the work of William James in the early 1900s, and there's been peer-reviewed throughout. Of course, once they became illegal in '66 were also illegal to scientifically investigate for about 30 years until Dr. Rick Strassman's work with DMT, followed Griffiths work with psilocybin that started in 2000, the first paper published in 2006, the same year Dawkins' published "The God Delusion." Talk about a synchronicity.

newolder wrote:In summary then, P induces brain states different to placebo.
Science eh?


Perhaps this is how you've summarized this research to keep your atheism intact, but I believe your summary is only half the story.
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Re: "Ground of all Being"?

#1829  Postby Kafei » Oct 04, 2018 6:57 pm

Keep It Real wrote:Kafei, do you acknowledge the experimental studies into psilocybin were littered with demand characteristics promoting theistic reports, or not?


I believe you're referring to the survey data, not the questionnaires. However, I'd point out these are largely unbidden spiritual experiences, not even the atheists expected to encounter God in this experience. In fact, the atheists had to say stuff like, "We have no words in our language for this experience, and so ended up having to use religious vocabulary such as "timelessly bathed in 'God's' love." And this is precisely what is expressed as the love that was in Jesus Christ as Agapé or the flowing of the Tao in Taoism, and it can be discerned at the very core of all the major religions, because the very descriptions found in the scripture itself derive from the "complete" mystical experience.

Atheists, by the way, whom after a "complete" mystical experience no longer identified with atheism.
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Re: "Ground of all Being"?

#1830  Postby Keep It Real » Oct 04, 2018 7:02 pm

No, the EXPERIMENTS, in the living room with the buddha statue and prayer/meditation sessions. Do you actually know the first thing about psychology investigative methods...nono, don't answer, I can guess. I'm qualified, you're wrong, go away.
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Re: "Ground of all Being"?

#1831  Postby Kafei » Oct 04, 2018 7:06 pm

Keep It Real wrote:No, the EXPERIMENTS, in the living room with the buddha statue and prayer/meditation sessions. Do you actually know the first thing about psychology investigative methods...nono, don't answer, I can guess. I'm qualified, you're wrong, go away.


You think a living root setting decorated with religious trinkets from various religions caters towards a religious influence? Even for atheists? I doubt it. The setting was catered for their comfortability. You do you realize that during the session, they are instructed to lie on a couch with blindfolds, don't you?


How would you propose we decorate a room setting to comfort an atheist? I'm curious. Let's furnish the floor with beer caps, mate, eh?
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Re: "Ground of all Being"?

#1832  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Oct 04, 2018 7:24 pm

Kafei wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:No, the EXPERIMENTS, in the living room with the buddha statue and prayer/meditation sessions. Do you actually know the first thing about psychology investigative methods...nono, don't answer, I can guess. I'm qualified, you're wrong, go away.


You think a living root setting decorated with religious trinkets from various religions caters towards a religious influence? Even for atheists? I doubt it. The setting was catered for their comfortability. You do you realize that during the session, they are instructed to lie on a couch with blindfolds, don't you?


How would you propose we decorate a room setting to comfort an atheist? I'm curious. Let's furnish the floor with beer caps, mate, eh?

As usual, a complete failure to address the point being made, instead offering nothing but inflammatory remarks and memes.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: "Ground of all Being"?

#1833  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Oct 04, 2018 7:25 pm

Kafei wrote: Perhaps if he'd given me a chance,

You have a chance right now; present rigorous definitions of the following terms:
- god
- mystical

Definitions, not rambling stories about perennialism or scientific studies, definitions.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: "Ground of all Being"?

#1834  Postby newolder » Oct 04, 2018 7:25 pm

Kafei wrote:
newolder wrote:
In summary then, the GOAB is a brain state.


No, this is somewhat of a misconception. What occurs is rather a metanoia, a fundamental transformation of perception.
You think perceptions are not brain states?
I think it's sort of misleading just to attribute it to a "brain state." We me find it's the highest relationship between a brain and the external reality for that a mystic to have an experience of the sum of all that exists, there must necessarily be a sum of all that exists. I don't think you can separate the two, they're fundamentally one and experienced as so within the "complete" mystical experience, and have been described in such a way at the very core of all of the major religions.

No. There is no science here.
newolder wrote:
Not unexpected but what are those numbers?


It's a night and day difference. What's so hard to believe about that? Why don't you review it for yourself?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxWvIp9XtUc&t=8m24s

Because I'm asking you for pertinent details of your claims.

newolder wrote:No. That's the null hypothesis: The drug produces no GOAB brain state in anyone. This is disproved if the drug does produce a reliable and quantifiable GOAB brain state above background expectations (that could be zero but it's still an expectation) in the volunteer population.


Sure, and that's what they've demonstrated, that the "complete" mystical experience or the "GOAB brain state," if you insist, is a biologically normal phenomenon in consciousness, that is to say we're all wired for such experiences.

But you say the GOAB brain state is no different from the effects of P alone.

newolder wrote:
That neither volunteer, nor the nurse, nor any of the professionals involved know what's being administered to the volunteer, placebo or psilocybin, and this is not to be revealed 'til the study is completely done.

You mean until after the analysis is complete?


Sure, yes, after all the work is done only then it is revealed who got what.

newolder wrote:That's not what I asked for though. How much P (in grammes) is contained in 5 dried grammes of mushrooms?


I did answer your question. Well, of course, no amount of any particular psilocybin-producing mushroom species is going to contained a fixed psilocybin amount in any five dried grams, but approximately that usually elicits what they're using in the study which is 30mg of psilocybin per 70kg of bodyweight. They're planning to raise the dose slightly higher for the more recent studies.

30mg of P per 70 kg bodyweight is an 'heroic' dose. Ok.

newolder wrote:The anecdotes are uninteresting. What does the fMRI analysis reveal?


Have you heard the anecdotes of the former atheists whom after a "complete" mystical experience no longer identified with atheism? The fMRI is also interesting. Aside from showing clear similarities in these fMRI images of the so-called "complete" mystical experience, there also has been really interesting research led by Dr. Robin Carhart-Harris relative to what these neuroscientists call the "Default Mode Network."

fMRI techniques are used to specify brain regions not "clear similarities".

newolder wrote:There is no difference between the GOAB state and the states produced by P alone. Ok.


Sure, and there's no difference between naturally occurring "complete" mystical experiences and the states produced by psilocybin alone.

This is not established. In fact, you've just made this up.
The implication being psychedelics aren't necessary for this experience, it's something that is a potential within us all. Psychedelics only mimic what we could otherwise achieve naturally if we practiced spiritual techniques such as meditation or asceticism, and not to mention good heath.

But you claimed that none of the placebo volunteers experienced the brain state induced by P. "Good health", what's that? (Rhetorical)

newolder wrote:What are the relevant PubMed references, please?


A good bulk of the more recent research has been peer-reviewed and published in The Scientific Journal of Psychopharmacology, but this research has a much more rich history than that initiating with the work of William James in the early 1900s, and there's been peer-reviewed throughout. Of course, once they became illegal in '66 were also illegal to scientifically investigate for about 30 years until Dr. Rick Strassman's work with DMT, followed Griffiths work with psilocybin that started in 2000, the first paper published in 2006, the same year Dawkins' published "The God Delusion." Talk about a synchronicity.

Those are not PubMed references.

newolder wrote:In summary then, P induces brain states different to placebo.
Science eh?


Perhaps this is how you've summarized this research to keep your atheism intact, but I believe your summary is only half the story.

Demonstrate something further using science then...
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould
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Re: "Ground of all Being"?

#1835  Postby Fallible » Oct 04, 2018 7:32 pm

Kafei wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:No, the EXPERIMENTS, in the living room with the buddha statue and prayer/meditation sessions. Do you actually know the first thing about psychology investigative methods...nono, don't answer, I can guess. I'm qualified, you're wrong, go away.


You think a living root setting decorated with religious trinkets from various religions caters towards a religious influence? Even for atheists? I doubt it. The setting was catered for their comfortability. You do you realize that during the session, they are instructed to lie on a couch with blindfolds, don't you?


How would you propose we decorate a room setting to comfort an atheist? I'm curious. Let's furnish the floor with beer caps, mate, eh?


That looks just like me! :awesome:
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Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
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Re: "Ground of all Being"?

#1836  Postby BlackBart » Oct 04, 2018 7:57 pm

My boobs are bigger :snooty:
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Re: "Ground of all Being"?

#1837  Postby Keep It Real » Oct 04, 2018 8:01 pm

I'm ashamed to admit my teeth are in worse condition. :oops:
You're only conscious when you're thinking about consciousness.
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Re: "Ground of all Being"?

#1838  Postby newolder » Oct 04, 2018 8:06 pm

The "Internet Arguments Won:" chart reminds me of this:
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould
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Re: "Ground of all Being"?

#1839  Postby Kafei » Oct 04, 2018 8:07 pm

newolder wrote:
Those are not PubMed references.


Make no mistake, this is legitimate science going on here which has been established over decades of cumulative research.

https://csp.org/psilocybin/

And again, these aren't "my claims," these are the claims made by the professionals involved in this research.
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Re: "Ground of all Being"?

#1840  Postby Cito di Pense » Oct 04, 2018 8:12 pm

Kafei wrote:
And again, these aren't "my claims," these are the claims made by the professionals involved in this research.


These 'professionals' go on appearances, do they? Still looking for the science, are you? Some people can't find science with two hands, a flashlight and a set of zircon-encrusted tweezers.

Using anecdotes in double blind studies. When all you have is an anecdote, everything looks like an appearance.

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