"Ground of all Being"?

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Re: "Ground of all Being"?

#1841  Postby Keep It Real » Oct 04, 2018 8:13 pm

Kafei wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:No, the EXPERIMENTS, in the living room with the buddha statue and prayer/meditation sessions. Do you actually know the first thing about psychology investigative methods...nono, don't answer, I can guess. I'm qualified, you're wrong, go away.


You think a living root setting decorated with religious trinkets from various religions caters towards a religious influence? Even for atheists? I doubt it. The setting was catered for their comfortability. You do you realize that during the session, they are instructed to lie on a couch with blindfolds, don't you?


I've explained to you what demand characteristics are already in the thread - that's obviously incompatible with your current personal encapsulated delusional system and so you fail to understand them. :crazy:
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Re: "Ground of all Being"?

#1842  Postby Kafei » Oct 04, 2018 8:14 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
Kafei wrote:
And again, these aren't "my claims," these are the claims made by the professionals involved in this research.


These 'professionals' go on appearances, do they? Still looking for the science, are you? Some people can't find science with two hands, a flashlight and a set of zircon-encrusted tweezers.


You can doubt all you'd like, but this is, indeed, established research going back to the work of William James in the early 1900s. The only thing new that they've established in the scientific literature is that they repeatedly and reliably these type of so-called "complete" mystical experience that are virtually identical with the reported mystical experiences riddled throughout the scriptures of all the major religions.

Keep It Real wrote:
Kafei wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:No, the EXPERIMENTS, in the living room with the buddha statue and prayer/meditation sessions. Do you actually know the first thing about psychology investigative methods...nono, don't answer, I can guess. I'm qualified, you're wrong, go away.


You think a living root setting decorated with religious trinkets from various religions caters towards a religious influence? Even for atheists? I doubt it. The setting was catered for their comfortability. You do you realize that during the session, they are instructed to lie on a couch with blindfolds, don't you?


I've explained to you what demand characteristics are already in the thread - that's obviously incompatible with your current personal encapsulated delusional system and so you fail to understand them. :crazy:


I could say the same to you.
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Re: "Ground of all Being"?

#1843  Postby Cito di Pense » Oct 04, 2018 8:19 pm

Kafei wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
Kafei wrote:
And again, these aren't "my claims," these are the claims made by the professionals involved in this research.


These 'professionals' go on appearances, do they? Still looking for the science, are you? Some people can't find science with two hands, a flashlight and a set of zircon-encrusted tweezers.


You can doubt all you'd like, but this is, indeed, established research going back to the work of William James in the early 1900s. The only thing new that they've established in the scientific literature is that they repeatedly and reliably these type of so-called "complete" mystical experience that are virtually identical with the reported mystical experiences riddled throughout the scriptures of all the major religions.


The whole problem with your assertion is that all you have to work with are anecdotes. Your assertion is confounded by the fact that longitudinally, people may be just copying their anecdotes from each other. That's the problem with anecdotes. There isn't any way to double blind that shit, since these 'professionals' have previously blinded themselves with their a priori stuff. By now, everybody's heard of something called a 'mystical experience', reported in anecdotes. Easy to copy, and even to embellish.
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Re: "Ground of all Being"?

#1844  Postby newolder » Oct 04, 2018 8:19 pm

Kafei wrote:
newolder wrote:
Those are not PubMed references.


Make no mistake, this is legitimate science going on here which has been established over decades of cumulative research.

https://csp.org/psilocybin/

And again, these aren't "my claims," these are the claims made by the professionals involved in this research.

The experiments described earlier reported that none of the placebo volunteers had this "natural" experience. Was the volunteer pool too small or in too poor health to include this "natural" component, or what?

If you wish to reference a study, the PubMed citation format page will help: https://www.nlm.nih.gov/bsd/policy/cit_format.html
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Re: "Ground of all Being"?

#1845  Postby Kafei » Oct 04, 2018 8:27 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
Kafei wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
Kafei wrote:
And again, these aren't "my claims," these are the claims made by the professionals involved in this research.


These 'professionals' go on appearances, do they? Still looking for the science, are you? Some people can't find science with two hands, a flashlight and a set of zircon-encrusted tweezers.


You can doubt all you'd like, but this is, indeed, established research going back to the work of William James in the early 1900s. The only thing new that they've established in the scientific literature is that they repeatedly and reliably these type of so-called "complete" mystical experience that are virtually identical with the reported mystical experiences riddled throughout the scriptures of all the major religions.


The whole problem with your assertion is that all you have to work with are anecdotes. Your assertion is confounded by the fact that longitudinally, people may be just copying their anecdotes from each other. That's the problem with anecdotes. There isn't any way to double blind that shit, since these 'professionals' have previously blinded themselves with their a priori stuff. By now, everybody's heard of something called a 'mystical experience', reported in anecdotes. Easy to copy, and even to embellish.


You do realize that none of the volunteers in these studies describe their experience as "mystical experience," do you? In fact, they don't even use the word "mystical" to describe their experience. The term used "mystical-type" within these studies is to gauge this experience, and distinguish between those volunteers who meet criteria for the so-called "complete" mystical experience. You seem to assume that people are swayed or somehow influenced by all the research that's been done, and that's not the case. Many of these volunteers have no idea what they're getting themselves into, and they're people with degrees, some of them doctors themselves. People aren't copying or even "embellishing" their experiences, they're attempting to describe them as honest as possible. And for the a priori criteria, this is based on measures which have been studied for decades and based on the original framework popularized by William James in the early 1900s.
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Re: "Ground of all Being"?

#1846  Postby laklak » Oct 04, 2018 8:29 pm

I did a sweat lodge peyote thingy back in the day to find my spirit animal. Other people got eagles or cougars or bears, I got a penguin. Emperor, to be precise. Does that count?
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Re: "Ground of all Being"?

#1847  Postby Keep It Real » Oct 04, 2018 8:31 pm

You and Tyler.

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Re: "Ground of all Being"?

#1848  Postby Kafei » Oct 04, 2018 8:43 pm

newolder wrote:
Kafei wrote:
newolder wrote:
Those are not PubMed references.


Make no mistake, this is legitimate science going on here which has been established over decades of cumulative research.

https://csp.org/psilocybin/

And again, these aren't "my claims," these are the claims made by the professionals involved in this research.

The experiments described earlier reported that none of the placebo volunteers had this "natural" experience. Was the volunteer pool too small or in too poor health to include this "natural" component, or what?


No, that's correct. I don't think it was necessarily none, maybe one person might barely meet this criteria, but nevertheless the results have been consistent since the original Marsh Chapel Experiment done in the 60s.

newolder wrote:If you wish to reference a study, the PubMed citation format page will help: https://www.nlm.nih.gov/bsd/policy/cit_format.html




Try this link, it may help you:
https://www.google.com/search?ei=qXW2W5 ... wLdMDz1EXU
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Re: "Ground of all Being"?

#1849  Postby newolder » Oct 04, 2018 9:14 pm

Kafei wrote:...
Try this link, it may help you:
https://www.google.com/search?ei=qXW2W5 ... wLdMDz1EXU

Which of those provides the definition of "mystical-type experience" and what is that definition (other than in the form of an anecdote about brain states)? I read the first citation @ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16826400 but the full text is behind a paywall and the definition is not at the link.
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Re: "Ground of all Being"?

#1850  Postby Kafei » Oct 04, 2018 9:27 pm

newolder wrote:
Kafei wrote:...
Try this link, it may help you:
https://www.google.com/search?ei=qXW2W5 ... wLdMDz1EXU

Which of those provides the definition of "mystical-type experience" and what is that definition (other than in the form of an anecdote about brain states)? I read the first citation @ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16826400 but the full text is behind a paywall and the definition is not at the link.


I realize this thread is nearly 100 pages long now, and while it's become rather tedious at this point for me to rehash the same points over and over, I realize you've arrived quite recently in these threads. I've been participating since page one, and so I suppose for your convenience so that you don't have to read through all the backlog of posts here, I'll post a couple of links that distinguish what's meant by mystical-type and the so-called "complete" mystical experience.



"Complete" Mystical Experience - Dr. Robert Jesse https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuwkDgyIuao#t=23m04s

Dr. Alex Belsar "Complete" Mystical Experience https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUYDjV8lQxo#t=5m36s

Dr. Roland Griffiths on "Complete" Mystical Experience https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxWvIp9XtUc#t=9m

Biologically normal phenomenon:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxWvIp9XtUc&t=32m11s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bu3q3GMHfE#t=51m18s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AifzF2BJxEE#t=22m25s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PY0oGjYqhhw#t=6m26s
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Re: "Ground of all Being"?

#1851  Postby Thommo » Oct 04, 2018 9:40 pm

newolder wrote:
Kafei wrote:...
Try this link, it may help you:
https://www.google.com/search?ei=qXW2W5 ... wLdMDz1EXU

Which of those provides the definition of "mystical-type experience" and what is that definition (other than in the form of an anecdote about brain states)? I read the first citation @ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16826400 but the full text is behind a paywall and the definition is not at the link.


I touched on this, before I found the answers unsatisfactory and gave up:

Thommo wrote:
Kafei wrote:http://www.atpweb.org/jtparchive/trps-41-02-139.pdf


Like your previous link you're quoting selectively. The very next paragraph explains what the author regards as the scientific version:
For research purposes at Johns Hopkins, we consider a complete experience of mystical consciousness as a state of human awareness that, when expressed and content-analyzed or measured by psychometric instruments, can be found to include all six categories. One also could formulate a category of ‘‘incomplete mystical consciousness’’ that may not include the complete transcendence ofthe ego, or noteworthy noetic content.


That is a mystical experience is one in which a participant reports the following six conditions are met:
(a) Unity, approached either internally with closed eyes or externally through sense perception,
(b) Transcendence of Time & Space,
(c) Intuitive Knowledge (the noetic quality),
(d) Sacredness or Awesomeness,
(e) Deeply-Felt Positive Mood— love, purity,peace, joy, and
(f) Ineffability and Paradoxicality


Depending on the exact experiment they use either a six or seven condition scale, which they typically assess according to a 30 or 43 question subset of a questionnaire, according to this:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5203697/
The MEQ has been administered in various forms in a number of studies over the past 50 or more years (Bogenschutz et al., 2015; Garcia-Romeu et al., 2015; Griffiths et al., 2006, 2008, 2011; Johnson et al., 2014; MacLean et al., 2012; Pahnke, 1963, 1967; Richards, 1975). The most frequently used version of the MEQ is the 43-item Mystical Experience Questionnaire (MEQ43), also called the Pahnke–Richards Mystical Experience Questionnaire. The MEQ43 contains 43 items that were theoretically derived and qualitatively organized into seven subscales (internal unity, external unity, sacredness, noetic quality, positive mood, transcendence of time and space, and ineffability).

...

The most recently developed version of the MEQ (the 30-item revised Mystical Experience Questionnaire, or MEQ30) was developed and validated through factor analysis of retrospective accounts of profound experiences with psilocybin-containing mushrooms (MacLean et al., 2012). That analysis yielded a four-factor structure of the MEQ30, containing 30 items from the previous MEQ43, which was typically administered within the 100-item States of Consciousness Questionnaire (Griffiths et al., 2006, 2011). The four factors of the MEQ30 are: mystical (including items from the internal unity, external unity, noetic quality, and sacredness scales of the MEQ43), positive mood, transcendence of time and space, and ineffability (all three of which include items from their respective MEQ43 scales).


These pages will tell you what the specific questions associated with the factor scores (in at least some experiments) are:
https://www.ipri.pl/badania-naukowe/nar ... tionnaire/
http://www.cupblog.org/2015/12/17/sacre ... tionnaire/

At least one of the Johns Hopkins talks mentions that they used an arbitrary (the researcher used that word) 60% score across 6 measures in at least one of their psilocybin experiments to determine what counted as a mystical experience. I cannot be bothered to watch hours of videos to ensure this was the case across all of them.
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Re: "Ground of all Being"?

#1852  Postby newolder » Oct 04, 2018 9:56 pm

Kafei wrote:
newolder wrote:
Kafei wrote:...
Try this link, it may help you:
https://www.google.com/search?ei=qXW2W5 ... wLdMDz1EXU

Which of those provides the definition of "mystical-type experience" and what is that definition (other than in the form of an anecdote about brain states)? I read the first citation @ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16826400 but the full text is behind a paywall and the definition is not at the link.


I realize this thread is nearly 100 pages long now, and while it's become rather tedious at this point for me to rehash the same points over and over, I realize you've arrived quite recently in these threads. I've been participating since page one, and so I suppose for your convenience so that you don't have to read through all the backlog of posts here, I'll post a couple of links that distinguish what's meant by mystical-type and the so-called "complete" mystical experience.

I joined the topic when you wrote that you wanted to discuss the science.

A brief definition of "mystical-type experience" (other than in the form of anecdotes about brain states) will suffice - I have no interest in a definition of "complete" mystical experience, as yet.
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Re: "Ground of all Being"?

#1853  Postby newolder » Oct 04, 2018 10:00 pm

Thommo wrote:
newolder wrote:
Kafei wrote:...
Try this link, it may help you:
https://www.google.com/search?ei=qXW2W5 ... wLdMDz1EXU

Which of those provides the definition of "mystical-type experience" and what is that definition (other than in the form of an anecdote about brain states)? I read the first citation @ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16826400 but the full text is behind a paywall and the definition is not at the link.


I touched on this, before I found the answers unsatisfactory and gave up:

Thommo wrote:
Kafei wrote:http://www.atpweb.org/jtparchive/trps-41-02-139.pdf


Like your previous link you're quoting selectively. The very next paragraph explains what the author regards as the scientific version:
For research purposes at Johns Hopkins, we consider a complete experience of mystical consciousness as a state of human awareness that, when expressed and content-analyzed or measured by psychometric instruments, can be found to include all six categories. One also could formulate a category of ‘‘incomplete mystical consciousness’’ that may not include the complete transcendence ofthe ego, or noteworthy noetic content.


That is a mystical experience is one in which a participant reports the following six conditions are met:
(a) Unity, approached either internally with closed eyes or externally through sense perception,
(b) Transcendence of Time & Space,
(c) Intuitive Knowledge (the noetic quality),
(d) Sacredness or Awesomeness,
(e) Deeply-Felt Positive Mood— love, purity,peace, joy, and
(f) Ineffability and Paradoxicality


Depending on the exact experiment they use either a six or seven condition scale, which they typically assess according to a 30 or 43 question subset of a questionairre, according to this:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5203697/
The MEQ has been administered in various forms in a number of studies over the past 50 or more years (Bogenschutz et al., 2015; Garcia-Romeu et al., 2015; Griffiths et al., 2006, 2008, 2011; Johnson et al., 2014; MacLean et al., 2012; Pahnke, 1963, 1967; Richards, 1975). The most frequently used version of the MEQ is the 43-item Mystical Experience Questionnaire (MEQ43), also called the Pahnke–Richards Mystical Experience Questionnaire. The MEQ43 contains 43 items that were theoretically derived and qualitatively organized into seven subscales (internal unity, external unity, sacredness, noetic quality, positive mood, transcendence of time and space, and ineffability).

...

The most recently developed version of the MEQ (the 30-item revised Mystical Experience Questionnaire, or MEQ30) was developed and validated through factor analysis of retrospective accounts of profound experiences with psilocybin-containing mushrooms (MacLean et al., 2012). That analysis yielded a four-factor structure of the MEQ30, containing 30 items from the previous MEQ43, which was typically administered within the 100-item States of Consciousness Questionnaire (Griffiths et al., 2006, 2011). The four factors of the MEQ30 are: mystical (including items from the internal unity, external unity, noetic quality, and sacredness scales of the MEQ43), positive mood, transcendence of time and space, and ineffability (all three of which include items from their respective MEQ43 scales).


These pages will tell you what the specific questions associated with the factor scores (in at least some experiments) are:
https://www.ipri.pl/badania-naukowe/nar ... tionnaire/
http://www.cupblog.org/2015/12/17/sacre ... tionnaire/

At least one of the Johns Hopkins talks mentions that they used an arbitrary (the researcher used that word) 60% score across 6 measures in at least one of their psilocybin experiments to determine what counted as a mystical experience. I cannot be bothered to watch hours of videos to ensure this was the case across all of them.

Thanks. If this is all were going to get on the science then I too will give up.
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Re: "Ground of all Being"?

#1854  Postby Kafei » Oct 04, 2018 10:20 pm

Thommo wrote:
At least one of the Johns Hopkins talks mentions that they used an arbitrary (the researcher used that word) 60% score across 6 measures in at least one of their psilocybin experiments to determine what counted as a mystical experience. I cannot be bothered to watch hours of videos to ensure this was the case across all of them.


Well, don't, they have been demonstrated to be across all of them, again, this was found to be a universally reported phenomenon in consciousness. You don't have to watch any of these lectures, but understand that I don't post these links for my convenience, I post them to aid in your own understanding of the research. These are lectures explaining the peer-reviewed and published research. I've read all the peer-reviewed and published material, I've seen all these lectures, some of them more than once, etc. So, if you don't want to pay attention to the science that's been done because you don't have the time, then that's not my fault.
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Re: "Ground of all Being"?

#1855  Postby Thommo » Oct 04, 2018 10:26 pm

Don't think I was talking to you or even thinking about you, let alone suggesting it was your fault.

Our conversation ran its course weeks ago, I was simply trying to show Newolder some of the answers to his questions, whilst acknowledging the limits of what answers I could provide.
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Re: "Ground of all Being"?

#1856  Postby Kafei » Oct 04, 2018 10:30 pm

Thommo wrote:Don't think I was talking to you or even thinking about you, let alone suggesting it was your fault.

Our conversation ran its course weeks ago, I was simply trying to show Newolder some of the answers to his questions, whilst acknowledging the limits of what answers I could provide.


Fair enough. That's been my effort as well. I wish to further our understanding in regards to these topics. I'm not trying to argue or 1-up anyone, just trying to come to terms with scientifically demonstrated facts.
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Re: "Ground of all Being"?

#1857  Postby Wheelspawn » Oct 09, 2018 3:14 am

I've had multiple mystical experiences regarding the Ground of all Being. I am an atheist and naturalist, and make no supernatural or paranormal interpretations of it. Ask me anything.
Ὅσον ζῇς φαίνου
μηδὲν ὅλως σὺ λυποῦ
πρὸς ὀλίγον ἐστὶ τὸ ζῆν
τὸ τέλος ὁ xρόνος ἀπαιτεῖ.

While you live, shine
have no grief at all
life exists only for a short while
and time demands its toll.

- Seikilos Epitaph
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Re: "Ground of all Being"?

#1858  Postby Fallible » Oct 09, 2018 6:37 am

What is your favourite colour?
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
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Re: "Ground of all Being"?

#1859  Postby BlackBart » Oct 09, 2018 6:52 am

What is the capital of Assyria?
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Re: "Ground of all Being"?

#1860  Postby Keep It Real » Oct 09, 2018 6:53 am

What do you mean, an African or European swallow?
"Jesus had a bad weekend for our sins." - Julia Sweeney
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