"Ground of all Being"?

Cito di Pense · **#1861** by **Cito di Pense** » Oct 09, 2018 7:38 am

Kafei wrote:I wish to further our understanding in regards to these topics.

Kafei · **#1862** by **Kafei** » Oct 09, 2018 12:22 pm

Wheelspawn wrote:I've had multiple mystical experiences regarding the Ground of all Being. I am an atheist and naturalist, and make no supernatural or paranormal interpretations of it. Ask me anything.

Do you relate to what these neuroscientists refer to as a "complete" mystical experience?

You see, it's a flat-out mistake on behalf of the atheists I encounter to necessarily define God as something "supernatural" or "metaphysical" in the particular sense that is bandied about these forums. That is to say, to define the divine with the requirement that its description should be something that defies physics or is synonymous with magic, etc. Einstein rightly referred to this as the "childish analogy of religion," and ironically it's the one notion most atheists I meet have as for their very reason for their rejection of theism. You see, the atheist essentially conjures his/her own conception of God, makes it supernatural, omniscient, omnibenevolent, etc. from the influence of their, shall I say, eisegesis of what they understand about religion, then proceeds to reject the very thing which they themselves conjured. Seems quite silly, but this is, in fact, the case.

The science is saying something quite different and has implications towards the very origins of the major religions, the nascency of each of the world's great faiths residing in individuals engaging what they're referring to as a "mystical experience," and have found it is, indeed, a biologically normal phenomenon. I get the impression no one is clicking these links. These aren't simply "YouTube links," these are lectures given by actual professionals who perform actual science relative to these topics. These studies have been peer-reviewed and published in The Scientific Journal of Psychopharmacology.

Biologically normal phenomenon:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bu3q3GMHfE#t=51m18s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AifzF2BJxEE#t=22m25s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PY0oGjYqhhw#t=6m26s

"Complete" Mystical Experience - Dr. Robert Jesse
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuwkDgyIuao#t=23m04s

Dr. Alex Belsar - "Complete" Mystical Experience
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUYDjV8lQxo#t=5m36s

Dr. Roland Griffiths on "Complete" Mystical Experience
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxWvIp9XtUc#t=9m

Kafei · **#1863** by **Kafei** » Oct 09, 2018 12:22 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
Kafei wrote:I wish to further our understanding in regards to these topics.

Real cute. I've one for you.

Thommo · **#1864** by **Thommo** » Oct 09, 2018 2:44 pm

BlackBart wrote:What is the capital of Assyria?

A.

theropod · **#1865** by **theropod** » Oct 10, 2018 6:45 pm

Hero dose? Seriously? This shit is pure comedy gold. They need to talk to a few of us old hard core hippies about what really constitutes a “hero dose”. I contend this “hero dose” is barely enough to have a good trip.

“Back in the day” I picked fresh Liberty Caps (Psilocybe semilanceata) by the pound. Yes, by the pound. One time I ate over 8.5 grams of them in a dried state which were sealed in a large test tube, and wandered around in the desert of eastern Oregon for several hours. I remember finding part of a broken geode (probably fractured by water intrusion followed by a freeze expansion). I balanced that glittering rock on a basalt boulder and shot it with my .22 rifle. The resultant mix of visual and auditory hallucinations were as intense as any I experienced, and I have taken a full drop of pure liquid LSD.

During no part of any of the epic trips I have experienced did any feeling of being in the presence of, or communion with, any non natural entity. I have, alternately, felt the vastness of time over which the earth has existed. I’ve looked at the sequences of repeating deposited flood basalts common in the northwestern United States, and felt the violence and turmoil of a world in constant flux. I could smell the sulphuric acid in the air, and feel the radiant heat of thousands of cubic miles of fresh lava. At the time it was as if I had stepped into a “way back” machine. The closest any of my experiences came to being spiritual was the realization that we humans owe our very existance to these violent natural forces.

I know my anecdotal shit is just that, but no matter what anyone relates of their experiences those are just as useless as mine. This whole thread is an absurd exercise in cherry picking, and anyone attempting to equate anecdotal stories with hard evidence is fooling themselves. It doesn’t matter what the researchers do, or say, when all they have to base their findings on is stories related to them. People lie.

RS

newolder · **#1866** by **newolder** » Oct 10, 2018 7:08 pm

^Indeed.

From the shroomery.org chat room:

The ld50 for mice is 285 mg / kg of body weight (verify here: http://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/m...)

Anything less than 1 pound/0.5 kg of dry 'shrooms is pussyfooting around. :snooty:

Kafei · **#1867** by **Kafei** » Oct 14, 2018 7:48 am

theropod wrote:Hero dose? Seriously? This shit is pure comedy gold. They need to talk to a few of us old hard core hippies about what really constitutes a “hero dose”. I contend this “hero dose” is barely enough to have a good trip.

The heroic dose is not a joke. If you're interested in what a heroic dose entails, I recommend the lectures of Kilindi Iyi or Terence McKenna.

Cito di Pense · **#1868** by **Cito di Pense** » Oct 14, 2018 8:43 am

Kafei wrote:
theropod wrote:Hero dose? Seriously? This shit is pure comedy gold. They need to talk to a few of us old hard core hippies about what really constitutes a “hero dose”. I contend this “hero dose” is barely enough to have a good trip.

The heroic dose is not a joke. If you're interested in what a heroic dose entails, I recommend the lectures of Kilindi Iyi or Terence McKenna.

How is your recommendation worth anything? You could leave that part out. And then we still have to take somebody else's word for it. This whole game boils down to "If you haven't done it, you don't know what you're missing." I'll tell you what a "heroic dose" entails. It entails a lot of circularity. The anecdotes are there just so you can smugly puff out your chest with bullshit.

You claim this is "established science" and you've been asked repeatedly to provide references from PubMed or similar databases, and it's pointed out repeatedly that you have failed to provide the necessary legitimate references to "established science". You can take that to mean 'peer-reviewed by established scientists with a published track record'. You're entitled to your own fantasy-world definition of 'established science", but do consider the relation between your failures to document your claims and the reception your bullshit is getting, here.

theropod · **#1869** by **theropod** » Oct 14, 2018 2:09 pm

Kafei wrote:
theropod wrote:Hero dose? Seriously? This shit is pure comedy gold. They need to talk to a few of us old hard core hippies about what really constitutes a “hero dose”. I contend this “hero dose” is barely enough to have a good trip.

The heroic dose is not a joke. If you're interested in what a heroic dose entails, I recommend the lectures of Kilindi Iyi or Terence McKenna.

Apparently you failed to read my post, and only skimmed off what you want to think is a gotcha statement. I have done massive doses of hallucinogenic drugs of severl types. I know what I’m talking about, but somehow my actual experices don’t count. Why would I need to read what someone else considers a “hero dose” when I pushed well past the point they claim, and you cited, by at least a factor of ten? How are my anecdotal stories any less valuable than anyone else’s, and how are the same types of stories of more valuable from other sources?

Troll someone else, because you have utterly failed in this instance.

RS

laklak · **#1870** by **laklak** » Oct 14, 2018 2:26 pm

Back in the day I'd eat the pill and then ask what it was. Only fucked up once, when someone held out an Orange Barrel 4 way tab and I ate the whole thing. I'd done similar amounts in the past, but never at one time. At one point I was walking down a hallway and reality contracted to a little bubble. As i walked the hallway in front opened up and flowed around me, then closed in the back. I couldn't see either end of the hallway, just the bubble I was walking in. My mate Spoon (aka Lunar Spooner) did the same amount but he got a bit freaked. Ran down the road yelling about "Green Arrows", got picked up by the cops when he attacked a mailbox and threw it at somebody's car. He had a long conversation with me in the back of the patrol car (I wasn't there), and the cops spent a lot of time looking for Rabbit, my nom de plume. All very interesting, but no god.

Damn I miss the 70s.

Kafei · **#1871** by **Kafei** » Oct 19, 2018 8:26 pm

theropod wrote:Hero dose? Seriously? This shit is pure comedy gold. They need to talk to a few of us old hard core hippies about what really constitutes a “hero dose”. I contend this “hero dose” is barely enough to have a good trip.

“Back in the day” I picked fresh Liberty Caps (Psilocybe semilanceata) by the pound. Yes, by the pound. One time I ate over 8.5 grams of them in a dried state which were sealed in a large test tube, and wandered around in the desert of eastern Oregon for several hours. I remember finding part of a broken geode (probably fractured by water intrusion followed by a freeze expansion). I balanced that glittering rock on a basalt boulder and shot it with my .22 rifle. The resultant mix of visual and auditory hallucinations were as intense as any I experienced, and I have taken a full drop of pure liquid LSD.

During no part of any of the epic trips I have experienced did any feeling of being in the presence of, or communion with, any non natural entity. I have, alternately, felt the vastness of time over which the earth has existed. I’ve looked at the sequences of repeating deposited flood basalts common in the northwestern United States, and felt the violence and turmoil of a world in constant flux. I could smell the sulphuric acid in the air, and feel the radiant heat of thousands of cubic miles of fresh lava. At the time it was as if I had stepped into a “way back” machine. The closest any of my experiences came to being spiritual was the realization that we humans owe our very existance to these violent natural forces. 8.5 grams of Psilocybe semilanceata? Try what Kilindi Iyi is talking about in Psilocybe azurescens.

I know my anecdotal shit is just that, but no matter what anyone relates of their experiences those are just as useless as mine. This whole thread is an absurd exercise in cherry picking, and anyone attempting to equate anecdotal stories with hard evidence is fooling themselves. It doesn’t matter what the researchers do, or say, when all they have to base their findings on is stories related to them. People lie.

RS

I read your post. I read everyone's post, including laklak's about their experience. I'm telling you, you guys didn't have the experience. You don't meet up with "non natural entities," if that's what you assume God is, then you've missed the point altogether. Likewise, I'd wager that laklak is assuming quite specific when he says, "No God," which is entirely irrelevant to how the divine is defined in this research and within the Perennial philosophy. And when I say Kilindi Iyi-recommended doses, I do mean you haven't even come close in comparison to these doses.

I'd also that these volunteers aren't there to "lie." They're trying to be as honest as possible in describing these experiences. Have you heard about the study currently in progress right now regarding the self-confirmed atheists who volunteered to be part of this research?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bu3q3GMHfE#t=34m36s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UF5l7wxN-k&t=53m52s

Spearthrower · **#1872** by **Spearthrower** » Apr 13, 2019 2:44 am

Cito di Pense wrote:
How is your recommendation worth anything? You could leave that part out. And then we still have to take somebody else's word for it. This whole game boils down to "If you haven't done it, you don't know what you're missing."

And if you have done it, but didn't get the asserted outcome, then you didn't really do it because if you had then you would've had this outcome!

Cito di Pense wrote:I'll tell you what a "heroic dose" entails. It entails a lot of circularity. The anecdotes are there just so you can smugly puff out your chest with bullshit.

gobingobingobingobin!

Such a shame I missed another trip on the merry-go-round with Kafei. I wonder if he's out there telling other people about the heroic dose that he admits he's never taken but knows all about! :grin:

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