Holocaust deniers

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Re: Holocaust deniers

#41  Postby Gawdzilla » May 02, 2010 1:46 pm

"we have no clear visual evidence from holocaust, that isn't hazy and improbable. and all the evidence regarding to the holocaust has been revealed way after it happened."

So the U.S. 3rd Army was lying en masse?

*insert yeah-buts here*
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#42  Postby Agrippina » May 02, 2010 1:52 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:"we have no clear visual evidence from holocaust, that isn't hazy and improbable. and all the evidence regarding to the holocaust has been revealed way after it happened."

So the U.S. 3rd Army was lying en masse?

*insert yeah-buts here*


And all the mass graves etc. were 'planted' after the fact??????
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#43  Postby stijndeloose » May 02, 2010 1:53 pm

Source? And preferably one that's not a revisionist website?

EDIT. Misread your post, gawdzilla. Apo-polo-logies. Wouldn't've happened if you'd used the quote function, though. ;)
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#44  Postby Aurlito » May 02, 2010 1:55 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:"we have no clear visual evidence from holocaust, that isn't hazy and improbable. and all the evidence regarding to the holocaust has been revealed way after it happened."

So the U.S. 3rd Army was lying en masse?

*insert yeah-buts here*

I've seen transitional fossils that led me to believe that evolution is correct, but they were as clear as day. all the pictures from holocaust are in black and white, with different qualities, despite the fact that cameras that took colorful pictures were invented that day, and black and white cameras didn't capture that awfully.
Last edited by Aurlito on May 02, 2010 2:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#45  Postby Gawdzilla » May 02, 2010 1:57 pm

Aurlito wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:"we have no clear visual evidence from holocaust, that isn't hazy and improbable. and all the evidence regarding to the holocaust has been revealed way after it happened."

So the U.S. 3rd Army was lying en masse?

*insert yeah-buts here*

I've seen transitional fossils that led me to believe that evolution is correct, but they were as clear as day. all the pictures from holocaust are in black and white, with different qualities, despite the fact that cameras that took colorful pictures were invented that day, and black and white cameras didn't capture that awfully.

You could have just said "Yeah, but...", that would have accomplished as much as your above.
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#46  Postby Aurlito » May 02, 2010 2:01 pm

And another thing. there were only 600000 Jews living in Germany on that time, were did the other 5400000 come from? I don't think that Poland and Austria had this many Jews.
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#47  Postby Gawdzilla » May 02, 2010 2:04 pm

Aurlito wrote:And another thing. there were only 600000 Jews living in Germany on that time, were did the other 5400000 come from? I don't think that Poland and Austria had this many Jews.

Sheesh. The Germans collected Jews from all over Europe. You can google the simple stuff, Aurlito. [/clue]
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#48  Postby Agrippina » May 02, 2010 2:05 pm

Aurlito wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:"we have no clear visual evidence from holocaust, that isn't hazy and improbable. and all the evidence regarding to the holocaust has been revealed way after it happened."

So the U.S. 3rd Army was lying en masse?

*insert yeah-buts here*

I've seen transitional fossils that led me to believe that evolution is correct, but they were as clear as day. all the pictures from holocaust are in black and white, with different qualities, despite the fact that cameras that took colorful pictures were invented that day, and black and white cameras didn't capture that awfully.


Would you like to see some photographs taken in colour 10 or 15 years ago that are worse than the ones you're talking about?
The quality of the early post-war photography was terrible. Understand that producing great photographs was not exactly the most important thing in the minds of the people who were rescuing Holocaust survivors. Do some reading, watch some movies, Schindler's List for example.
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#49  Postby Aurlito » May 02, 2010 2:10 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:
Aurlito wrote:And another thing. there were only 600000 Jews living in Germany on that time, were did the other 5400000 come from? I don't think that Poland and Austria had this many Jews.

Sheesh. The Germans collected Jews from all over Europe. You can google the simple stuff, Aurlito. [/clue]

You mean like kidnapped them? because as far as I can recall Germany only had France, Austria and Poland under control at that time. A Jew for a Dime. nice touch.

Agrippina wrote:
Would you like to see some photographs taken in colour 10 or 15 years ago that are worse than the ones you're talking about?
The quality of the early post-war photography was terrible. Understand that producing great photographs was not exactly the most important thing in the minds of the people who were rescuing Holocaust survivors. Do some reading, watch some movies, Schindler's List for example.

How do you know that these pictures were taken by the rescuers? they could have been taken by Germans per se.
And I watched Schindler's List and chose not to believe everything that's been shown in it.
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#50  Postby Gawdzilla » May 02, 2010 2:12 pm

"You mean like kidnapped them? because as far as I can recall Germany only had France, Austria and Poland under control at that time. A Jew for a Dime. nice touch."

Google. It will really help. Not you, of course, you've already made up your mind. But for those who want to know, Google is your friend.
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#51  Postby stijndeloose » May 02, 2010 2:13 pm

Aurlito wrote:You mean like kidnapped them? because as far as I can recall Germany only had France, Austria and Poland under control at that time.


:what:
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#52  Postby Agrippina » May 02, 2010 2:16 pm

Aurlito wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:
Aurlito wrote:And another thing. there were only 600000 Jews living in Germany on that time, were did the other 5400000 come from? I don't think that Poland and Austria had this many Jews.

Sheesh. The Germans collected Jews from all over Europe. You can google the simple stuff, Aurlito. [/clue]

You mean like kidnapped them? because as far as I can recall Germany only had France, Austria and Poland under control at that time. A Jew for a Dime. nice touch.

They rounded them up from everywhere, not only the ones you mentioned. There were thousands living in eastern Europe too, and Russia.
In the late 1930's the Nazis killed thousands of handicapped Germans by lethal injection and poisonous gas. After the German invasion of the Soviet Union in June 1941, mobile killing units following in the wake of the German Army began shooting massive numbers of Jews and Roma (Gypsies) in open fields and ravines on the outskirts of conquered cities and towns. Eventually the Nazis created a more secluded and organized method of killing enormous numbers of civilians -- six extermination centers were established in occupied Poland where large-scale murder by gas and body disposal by cremation were systematically conducted. Victims were deported to these centers from Western Europe and from the ghettos in Eastern Europe which the Nazis had established. In addition, millions died in the ghettos and concentration camps as a result of forced labor, starvation, exposure, brutality, disease and execution.

http://www.humanitas-international.org/holocaust/questns.htm

Agrippina wrote:
Would you like to see some photographs taken in colour 10 or 15 years ago that are worse than the ones you're talking about?
The quality of the early post-war photography was terrible. Understand that producing great photographs was not exactly the most important thing in the minds of the people who were rescuing Holocaust survivors. Do some reading, watch some movies, Schindler's List for example.

How do you know that these pictures were taken by the rescuers? they could have been taken by Germans per se.
And I watched Schindler's List and chose not to believe everything that's been shown in it.

Maybe you should watch it again. It is completely true. Maybe the little girl in the red dress isn't but it is based on fact.
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#53  Postby Gawdzilla » May 02, 2010 2:16 pm

stijndeloose wrote:
Aurlito wrote:You mean like kidnapped them? because as far as I can recall Germany only had France, Austria and Poland under control at that time.


:what:

Yeah, nobody invaded Denmark, Norway, Luxemborg, Belgium, or Czechoslovakia. And there was that Russia thing, wasn't there? What was that all about anyway?
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#54  Postby Aurlito » May 02, 2010 2:21 pm

stijndeloose, in the article that you've linked in the first page, it mentions death certificates of less than 70000 Jews. how do you know that they weren't killed by contagious diseases?
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#55  Postby Moridin » May 02, 2010 2:21 pm

Aurlito wrote:You're obviously using conjunction fallacy. the things that you've listed have nothing to do with my claim, and are totally irrelevant with what I said.


They are analogous arguments that have absurd conclusions, showing that your argument have an absurd conclusion. I used them to demonstrate exactly what the fallacy you used was. This is not a fallacy in itself.

as I said, holocaust is "refutable" it means it has potential to be false because "supposedly" the evidence has been planted "for" political advantage "because" most of the evidence has been revealed "after" the start of Jewish settlement.


How do you know the evidence was planted? Do you not know that the basic facts of the Holocaust was established before the state of Israel was formed? Furthermore, you are making the same appeal to consequence fallacy / genetic fallacy again. The facts of the Holocaust are irrelevant to any political advantage gained by playing the victim card.

I hope I made myself clear. we have no visual evidence from holocaust, that isn't hazy and improbable. and all the evidence regarding to the holocaust has been revealed way after it happened.


How do you know we have no "visual evidence" for the Holocaust? In fact, we have a massive amount of independently converging evidence, such as

Written documents: Hundreds of thousands of letters, memos, blueprints, orders, bills, speeches, articles, memoirs, and confessions.
Eyewitness testimony: Accounts from survivors, Kapos, Sonderkommandos, SS guards, commandants, local townspeople and even upper-echelon Nazis who did not deny the Holocaust.
Photographs: Official military and press photographs and films, civilian photographs, secret photographs taken by prisoners, aerial photographs, and German and Allied film footage.
Physical evidence: Artifacts found at the sites of concentration camps, work camps and death camps, many of which are still extant in varying degrees of originality and reconstruction.
Demographics: All those people who the deniers claim survived the Holocaust are missing. Where are they?

(from Shermer, Michael, "Why People Believe Weird Things: Pseudoscience, Superstition and Other Confusions of Our Time, Owl Books, 2002, p. 214)

I've seen transitional fossils that led me to believe that evolution is correct, but they were as clear as day. all the pictures from holocaust are in black and white, with different qualities, despite the fact that cameras that took colorful pictures were invented that day, and black and white cameras didn't capture that awfully.


If you think that all the evidence for the Holocaust was planted by a Zionist conspiracy in order to milk guilty, why not believe the same thing with fossils? Analogously, how to you know that these fossils with transitional features where not faked by overzealous Darwinist to prop up their communist/fascist anti-theist worldview?

Do you not understand that both of these are irrational conspiracy theories without a shred of evidence? Do you not understand that you are clearly ignorant about the evidence for the Holocaust and you are reacting this way simply because you do not like the way Israel is treating Palestinians? Yes, Israel is treating Palestinians horribly, but this does not mean that the Holocaust did not happen. The fact that the Holocaust happened does not justify this treatment and no rational person every claimed it did.

Holocaust deniers are in many ways worse than creationists; creationists deny events happening hundreds of millions of years ago, whereas Holocaust deniers are denying events that occurred for

If you do not accept the historical fact of the Holocaust, what would convince you that it did happen? What kind of evidence would be acceptable for you? If you say that no evidence would convince you that the Holocaust occurred, then your belief is just as dogmatic, inflexible and irrational as creationists.
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#56  Postby Agrippina » May 02, 2010 2:22 pm

Aurlito wrote:stijndeloose, in the article that you've linked in the first page, it mentions death certificates of less than 70000 Jews. how do you know that they weren't killed by contagious diseases?

Many of them in the ghettos did die of disease.
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#57  Postby Gawdzilla » May 02, 2010 2:23 pm

Agrippina wrote:
Aurlito wrote:stijndeloose, in the article that you've linked in the first page, it mentions death certificates of less than 70000 Jews. how do you know that they weren't killed by contagious diseases?

Many of them in the ghettos did die of disease.

Which was helped on by a 500 calorie a day diet, lack of medical supplies, etc.
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#58  Postby Agrippina » May 02, 2010 2:26 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
Aurlito wrote:stijndeloose, in the article that you've linked in the first page, it mentions death certificates of less than 70000 Jews. how do you know that they weren't killed by contagious diseases?

Many of them in the ghettos did die of disease.

Which was helped on by a 500 calorie a day diet, lack of medical supplies, etc.


Exactly!
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#59  Postby Aurlito » May 02, 2010 2:27 pm

So maybe the pictures are from their dead bodies?

Which was helped on by a 500 calorie a day diet, lack of medical supplies, etc.

They were suffering enough. so why would they kill them?
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#60  Postby Moridin » May 02, 2010 2:27 pm

Aurlito wrote:stijndeloose, in the article that you've linked in the first page, it mentions death certificates of less than 70000 Jews. how do you know that they weren't killed by contagious diseases?


We have only found 0.1% to 1% of the estimated size of the fossil record that shows evolution. How do you know that the other 99% where not created in their present form by the creationist god? Because we have a convergence of multiple independent lines of evidence (genetics, biochemistry, paleontology, comparative anatomy, biogeography, ERVs, embryology and so on). We have the same thing with respect to the Holocaust.

The demographics is clear: All those people who the deniers claim survived the Holocaust are missing. Where are they?
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