Holocaust deniers

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Re: Holocaust deniers

#81  Postby Agrippina » May 02, 2010 2:55 pm

Moridin wrote:From the link you gave:

1800 1840 1880 1900 1914 1938 1948
Europe (Incl. Russia) 1,500 3,950 6,858 8,900 9,100 9,500 3,700
Asia - 300 370 510 500 1,000 1,300
Africa, Middle East 1,000 198 250 375 400 600 700
North & South America - 50 250 1,200 3,500 5,500 5,800
Australia - 2 10 15 - - -
TOTAL 2,500 4,500 7,738 11,000 13,500 16,600 11,500

Table 1. World Jewish Population (thousands)


Do you notice the fall in world population of Jews between 1938 and 1948? Why do you think that is? If the Holocaust did not occur, where did they all go?


There you go. Strange how the drop in population correlates to the time when they were being slaughtered.

Moridin wrote:
Agrippina wrote:When the Jews were kicked out of Europe in the pogroms of the late 19th century, they emigrated to the rest of the world, Europe, which is where a lot of the them settled and were later victimized by the Nazis, England, America, South Africa and Australia. My own and my children's ancestors came from Germany (1700s) and Poland (1800s).


But this emigration happened long before the Holocaust, so you cannot use it to claim that the Jews that died in the Holocaust secretly fled to these places, especially as the population demographics you post yourself contradict that position.


I was talking about where the people who populated Israel after 1948 came from. Not before.
Before the war they emigrated to the outside world, and after the war, they started populating Israel.
Aurlito wrote:When did the "real" settlement start?


1946 to 1948 when it was declared a state.
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#82  Postby aspire1670 » May 02, 2010 2:57 pm

Aurlito wrote:When did the "real" settlement start?


At some time during the Bronze Age.
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#83  Postby Moridin » May 02, 2010 2:59 pm

Agrippina wrote:
Moridin wrote:From the link you gave:

1800 1840 1880 1900 1914 1938 1948
Europe (Incl. Russia) 1,500 3,950 6,858 8,900 9,100 9,500 3,700
Asia - 300 370 510 500 1,000 1,300
Africa, Middle East 1,000 198 250 375 400 600 700
North & South America - 50 250 1,200 3,500 5,500 5,800
Australia - 2 10 15 - - -
TOTAL 2,500 4,500 7,738 11,000 13,500 16,600 11,500

Table 1. World Jewish Population (thousands)


Do you notice the fall in world population of Jews between 1938 and 1948? Why do you think that is? If the Holocaust did not occur, where did they all go?


There you go. Strange how the drop in population correlates to the time when they were being slaughtered.


Are you seriously trying to tell me that you think that a population undergoing a genocide does not decrease? Notice that the demographics is about world Jewish population. There is nowhere left to run; the demographics represents strong evidence in favor of the historicity of the Holocaust.
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#84  Postby Agrippina » May 02, 2010 2:59 pm

aspire1670 wrote:
Aurlito wrote:When did the "real" settlement start?


At some time during the Bronze Age.


Very true, at the same time that people were populating the rest of the Near East. :cheers:
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#85  Postby Aurlito » May 02, 2010 3:01 pm

Agrippina wrote:1946 to 1948 when it was declared a state.

And where did the Jews that participated in early stage of settlement came from? obviously if 6 million Jews were killed in the Holocaust, there would be none to immigrate.

aspire1670 wrote:At some time during the Bronze Age.

When we use "the" before "settlement" there's no room for derision, of course with exception of some people.
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#86  Postby Gawdzilla » May 02, 2010 3:01 pm

Aurlito wrote:When did the "real" settlement start?

Right after the Flood. :roll:
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#87  Postby Moridin » May 02, 2010 3:03 pm

Aurlito wrote:
Agrippina wrote:1946 to 1948 when it was declared a state.

And where did the Jews that participated in early stage of settlement came from? obviously if 6 million Jews were killed in the Holocaust, there would be none to immigrate.


If you look at the statistics posted above, you will see that there still existed around 11.5 million Jews after the Holocaust, despite having its population decimated by around 6 million.
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#88  Postby aspire1670 » May 02, 2010 3:08 pm

Aurlito wrote:
Agrippina wrote:1946 to 1948 when it was declared a state.

And where did the Jews that participated in early stage of settlement came from? obviously if 6 million Jews were killed in the Holocaust, there would be none to immigrate.

aspire1670 wrote:At some time during the Bronze Age.

When we use "the" before "settlement" there's no room for derision, of course with exception of some people.


When I use "settlement" I use it an historical sense perhaps you should check some history books, again.

"The Israelite invasion of Canaan around 1200 BC, following the Exodus from Egypt as described in the Bible, is the traditional account. This date has not been confirmed by archeology and some scholars argue that the Biblical version is mere legend (although the Merneptah Stela implies Israel was well established by the end of the 13th century BC--see 'What is the evidence for the antiquity of Israel?'). In particular, it is not clear if the early Israelite conquering of this land was an invasion from without (coming from Egypt) or more of an internal struggle between groups that inhabited the area. That is, the early Israelites may have been entirely or partially indigenous to Canaan.

Confirmed historical dates and a continuous Jewish historical record in Palestine begin with the Second Temple period, starting with the return of exiled Jews from Babylonia (roughly today's southern Iraq) in 538 BC."
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_early_ ... t_jews.php
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#89  Postby Gawdzilla » May 02, 2010 3:09 pm

BTW, Aurlito, there were always Jews in Israel, even after the Diaspora. (Google that term.)
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#90  Postby Moridin » May 02, 2010 3:09 pm

Agrippina, I'm sorry if I misrepresented you as a denier.
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#91  Postby Mononoke » May 02, 2010 3:10 pm

Moridin wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
Moridin wrote:From the link you gave:

1800 1840 1880 1900 1914 1938 1948
Europe (Incl. Russia) 1,500 3,950 6,858 8,900 9,100 9,500 3,700
Asia - 300 370 510 500 1,000 1,300
Africa, Middle East 1,000 198 250 375 400 600 700
North & South America - 50 250 1,200 3,500 5,500 5,800
Australia - 2 10 15 - - -
TOTAL 2,500 4,500 7,738 11,000 13,500 16,600 11,500

Table 1. World Jewish Population (thousands)


Do you notice the fall in world population of Jews between 1938 and 1948? Why do you think that is? If the Holocaust did not occur, where did they all go?


There you go. Strange how the drop in population correlates to the time when they were being slaughtered.


Are you seriously trying to tell me that you think that a population undergoing a genocide does not decrease? Notice that the demographics is about world Jewish population. There is nowhere left to run; the demographics represents strong evidence in favor of the historicity of the Holocaust.


It's not all the countries in the world have synchronized censuses, it's possible for people to slip through. Anyways, I'm not a holocaust denier. I just gave an opinion, so :hide:
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#92  Postby Regina » May 02, 2010 3:15 pm

Aurlito wrote:
Agrippina wrote:1946 to 1948 when it was declared a state.

And where did the Jews that participated in early stage of settlement came from? obviously if 6 million Jews were killed in the Holocaust, there would be none to immigrate.

aspire1670 wrote:At some time during the Bronze Age.

When we use "the" before "settlement" there's no room for derision, of course with exception of some people.

There's always room for that, even here! :mrgreen: :cheers:
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#93  Postby Agrippina » May 02, 2010 3:20 pm

Moridin wrote:Agrippina, I'm sorry if I misrepresented you as a denier.


It's OK, I'm not offended, it's easy to get confused in these heated debates. :cheers:
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#94  Postby Agrippina » May 02, 2010 3:36 pm

Aurlito wrote:
Agrippina wrote:1946 to 1948 when it was declared a state.

And where did the Jews that participated in early stage of settlement came from? obviously if 6 million Jews were killed in the Holocaust, there would be none to immigrate.

Do you actually read the rest of the posts?
Before WWII, long before, there were pogroms all over Eastern Europe, when the countries of the later Soviet Union were fighting their battles agains the communists. A lof of Jews were sympathetic to the communists and because they were easily identifiable, the tsarists attacked them, forcing them to leave villages they'd lived in for hundreds of years. They were usually given a few days to collect as much of their belongings as they could either put on their backs on or whatever wagons they could find. And they had to go, just leave the land.

They moved on, to Europe and to the rest of the world, America, Australia, South Africa, the English-speaking world was sympathetic. After WWII, the descendants of these people emigrated from their new adopted countries to Israel. And even today, Jews still think of Israel and their homeland and they try to at least visit it, if not go there to settle.

aspire1670 wrote:At some time during the Bronze Age.

When we use "the" before "settlement" there's no room for derision, of course with exception of some people.


Actually here's a little history.
At some time during 800 and 1200 BCE groups of Indo-Europeans arrived in the 'known' world, Greece, Asia Minor, the Near East, and Assyria. They were Semitic people who brought with them iron-age weapons. Although there were people living in these areas, these new people brought a lot of what the people living in the Middle East now identify as their own and all of them are descendants of the mixture of these people and the ones who were already living there. These are not the Arabs who were living in the desert of the Arabian peninsula, but the people of the "Near East."

The biblical exodus is not accepted as historical fact but rather as Jewish mythology. They were as much descendants of the people described above as the rest of the people living in the area. When Nebuchadnezzar tore down the temple at Jerusalem and took the people living in the area to Babylon, he didn't take millions of a huge settled population, just a few thousand people who returned and established themselves as monotheists. So in fact, apart from the Arabian influence, strictly speaking all these people are the same people, they only worship differently. And as much as modern Iranians and Iraqis don't like to be called 'Arabs' they nevertheless adhere to a religion designed for them by Arabs and created out of the religion of the Jews.

When the Romans tore down the temple and threw the Hebrews out of Judaea, they spread all over the known world, to the east and west and settled in Eastern Europe (where the Soviet predecessors kicked them out) and the Roman Empire.

During the years preceding the war, jews from all over Europe left in droves to go to family in the rest of the world, again, England, America, South Africa and Australia. For some reason, English-speaking countries were fairly, but not terribly welcoming.

Then when the state of Israel was established in 1948, they returned to what had been their homeland 2000 years before, when the Romans kicked them out.
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#95  Postby Gawdzilla » May 02, 2010 3:46 pm

It's of some interest to note that the Gestapo got Jewish help in getting people out of Germany and into Palestine. The Nazis wanted them out of the country and they wanted to get out, so the multitude of offices the emigrants had to visit to get exit papers were consolidated and Jewish advisors helped get the visas expedited.

Additionally, Tsarist Russia was more than happy to send Jews out of the country, mostly to Palestine.

The pre-1948 kibbutz were largely founded by these emigrants.
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#96  Postby Agrippina » May 02, 2010 3:54 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:It's of some interest to note that the Gestapo got Jewish help in getting people out of Germany and into Palestine. The Nazis wanted them out of the country and they wanted to get out, so the multitude of offices the emigrants had to visit to get exit papers were consolidated and Jewish advisors helped get the visas expedited.

Additionally, Tsarist Russia was more than happy to send Jews out of the country, mostly to Palestine.

The pre-1948 kibbutz were largely founded by these emigrants.


Yes, very true. My dad used to talk about it all the time, he was very keen to at least go there, if not emigrate but my mum said 'no.'
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#97  Postby rJD » May 02, 2010 5:52 pm

Is there any irrational conspiracy theory more poisonous than Holocaust denial, any CT more loaded with intent to promote a venomous agenda? I really can't think of one.
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#98  Postby User » May 02, 2010 5:56 pm

rJD wrote:Is there any irrational conspiracy theory more poisonous than Holocaust denial, any CT more loaded with intent to promote a venomous agenda? I really can't think of one.


Yeah, I can. Plenty of 'em in fact.

One which far surpasses holocaust denial are those who insist the moon landing is a hoax.
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#99  Postby Gawdzilla » May 02, 2010 5:57 pm

User wrote:
rJD wrote:Is there any irrational conspiracy theory more poisonous than Holocaust denial, any CT more loaded with intent to promote a venomous agenda? I really can't think of one.


Yeah, I can. Plenty of 'em in fact.

One which far surpasses holocaust denial are those who insist the moon landing is a hoax.

I can't put that in the same category with Holohoaxers. They are discounting the deaths of millions of people to forward their own agenda of "Nazi is Good!"
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#100  Postby User » May 02, 2010 6:00 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:
User wrote:
rJD wrote:Is there any irrational conspiracy theory more poisonous than Holocaust denial, any CT more loaded with intent to promote a venomous agenda? I really can't think of one.


Yeah, I can. Plenty of 'em in fact.

One which far surpasses holocaust denial are those who insist the moon landing is a hoax.

I can't put that in the same category with Holohoaxers. They are discounting the deaths of millions of people to forward their own agenda of "Nazi is Good!"


The holocaust is bad, yes, but the moonlanding hoaxers are condemning an entire world to the idea that we will never see the stars. Thinking that the Earth is big is what leads to problems.
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